Boxford TCL 125

[John11668]

Have just bought one of these .
Am told all the motions work manually but Boxford wont support it with suitable software . So conversion to Mach or whatever is required

Presuming the existing steppers are working is it just a question of changing the input software or is there something mysterious required .
Anyone done this change and able to help with what is required .

Thanks in advance

John

[JAZZCNC]

I've got 2 of these and both of them have had the Boxford bespoke controller and driver boards removed. The only thing that is re-used on one them is the spindle DC speed controller and PSU etc. This also depends which DC speed controller they fitted.!
The other has had everything removed, including the DC motor which as been replaced by a standard AC motor and run form a VFD. I didn't do this and I wouldn't recommend it because it's a unsightly mess that is hacked onto the side.

If you look around I think some folks have managed to Hack into the Boxford boards but the cost of 2 new drives and a cheap BOB (break out board) are not worth the bother IMO. If you use Linux CNC for the control software which is free then for less than £50 you could be up and running.

[John11668]

Just to clarify the history of your machines Jazz, was this kit removed by you for a reason , or had that happened before you got them?
The machine was cheap enough and I am told operates manually , so I wont mind spending a couple of hundred to see a modern computer driving it . I dont see why I would alter the spindle drive provided it is working OK

Are you saying that at worst a couple of Stepper drivers and a modern BoB should be sufficient to get it going

[JAZZCNC]

Just to clarify the history of your machines Jazz, was this kit removed by you for a reason , or had that happened before you got them?
The machine was cheap enough and I am told operates manually , so I wont mind spending a couple of hundred to see a modern computer driving it . I dont see why I would alter the spindle drive provided it is working OK

Are you saying that at worst a couple of Stepper drivers and a modern BoB should be sufficient to get it going

Yes couple of drives and a BOB will see it converted so it can be used on more modern controller.

The spindle drive is a little more complex and depends on the Spindle controller fitted to what's needed to make it work. You have to be very careful with these speed controllers because they are unforgiving regards wiring errors and wrong voltages etc, also they often run at Mains potential so very easy to damage other components and High risk of electrocution if start sticking fingers in wrong places.!!

One of the machines I stripped out because all the boards are bespoke to Boxford and couldn't be bothered to mess around hacking wires, so the only thing I've re-used is the Spindle controller and PSU, contactors, relays etc. This runs or it will do when I get around to it on Mach3.

The other came to me converted but was in a shocking state and that one had the hacked on motor. It's currently being tidied up and setup to work with Linux CNC by the Linux CNC maestro and all around good egg Clives S because he likes a nice project and it's got ATC for him top play with.

[John11668]

This is the machine which is on its way to me .
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boxford-125-TCL-CNC-Lathe/283982185478?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I am assured all motions are working manually but dont yet know how well.
I am guessing it will be of limited use without ATC but am exploring designs to make one

[JAZZCNC]

This the problem with these Boxford machines.! They come with different cards and setups, this one is completely different to the one I stripped out. I've got a feeling this one you can break into the top board which as the drives on it, the bottom board is the controller which you just leave in place.
I've also got a feeling the Lanze speed controller can not easily be re-used because it's got it's on interface card which talks to the Boxford controller but I'm not 100% on that.

I suggest you go look on the Boxford forum and look for some wiring diagrams or info on which pins are for the step and direction. Or like I did just pull it all out and fit new drives with a £5 BOB, just some of the cheap TB based drivers are more than good enough for these little machines and you can get them for about £10 each.

[John11668]

Had a look at the boxford forums /groups but cant find any which have info on the CNC variants . Do you have a link
Research tells me that Tony at lathes.co.uk does a copy manual . Does anyone know what sort of info is in that. I suppose I am asking has anyone got one ??
Not averse to paying for one , but I think it is £65 so a lot if you havent seen what is in it .

[JAZZCNC]

Had a look at the boxford forums /groups but cant find any which have info on the CNC variants . Do you have a link
Research tells me that Tony at lathes.co.uk does a copy manual . Does anyone know what sort of info is in that. I suppose I am asking has anyone got one ??
Not averse to paying for one , but I think it is £65 so a lot if you havent seen what is in it .

Can't see the point of buying the manual because it will mostly relate to using the control software and won't give anything away regards the wiring. They don't want you knowing these things because that would make it too easy to convert.

To be honest I'm skeptical that this machine will jog around from the buttons like you have been told because it will most likely require the PC and control software to do that, however if it does then your half way there because you can most probably just trace the connections.

[John11668]

Will report back when I lay hands on the beast

[inee]

Hi
The lenze board looks to be a 536 ,manuals are online google, the board on the front of the lenze controller is a optoisolator board, and is easy to connect to ,you need a 10v output on your breakout board, this goes to the 10v and 0v terminals on the opto board. there is a inhibit input i connected it to the Emergancy stop switch, i also had the mains to the speed board run through a relay, switched from the control panel.
see that big relay in the middle leave it in and you can simply wire the input to two relays. you basically want to wire the outputs of the new relay to the inputs of relay to the inputs of the large changeover relay,
The new relay input you can take from your bob using the spindle dir connector..
You can either use the original transformer or replace it with a power supply, leave the choke in.

close the back of the lathe, turn the rotary switch at the top of the rear door, if all is well, there is a circuit breaker just below the mains socket on the rear door of the lathe, you will need to reset it, if that goes well.

If all is well turn off all the control panel switches , depress the red button(emergency stop switch), release the E stop button you may get a few clunks thats just the relays, press the on/ off switch on the control panel , if it all lights up sweet, then press wither of the x or z jog buttons(make sure the pot on the control panel is at zero(ish).then try the motor ,simply press the fwd or reverse buttons a couple of times, each press speeds it up or slows it down.

In the auction pics it looks like a fuse is missing just behind the large capacitor, so replace that before you do anything else.
Don't rip out all the wiring as it' mostly still useable. Replace the mains cable , leave the, control panel wiring in as it make wiring it bac up easier, also leave the interlock wiring as again it's easier to wire.

i have a few files that i will try and find to upload here one is a partial wiring diagram, which will help in wiring the speed controller..

the main board on yours looks different to the ones I've seen (i think it was pot luck, if all the components were on the boards ;) .

[John11668]

Thanks Inee
I suspect that will all fall into place when I get the machine on my bench.
Will keep you all posted .
I have agreed (after a bit of haggling) to buy an auto toolchanger so the project has just extended a bit
Pricey kit , but if I had to buy a toolpost anyway the extra seems justified.

[inee]

Hi
Forgot to say be careful around the motor output wiring and change over relay as it can be about 180v if it's running the motor.
the easiest way to use the wiring diagram is to print several copies, then say follow the live mains wire and colour it brown with a pencil, next print colour neutral wire blue. Or even do it on the computer, much quicker, if your eyesights good.
That way all the parts for motor control will be a lot easier to wire, i will post a bit more info when i can find it

[John11668]

:thumsup:

[John11668]

Hi folks
Machine arrived today so couldn,t wait to plug in and see what works.
Circuit breaker was tripped so pressed the button and Big bang . Workshop electrics all tripped too.
opened up Explored a bit , tried again , and there was a big flash behind the fan. Supply to fan was lying loose on the fan casing so a dead short .
Sorted that and then switched on again. and presto! Power, fan running , lights on the panel , spindle starts and runs , speed can be increased/ reduced . Stops as required.
Try rev button, starts it up again but in in forward direction so am I right in presuming reversing relay is not working??

And doesnt seem to want to jog x or z .
Will try to upload some pics !



28806 28807 28808


and
28811 28809 28810

Am a bit concerned about the snipped off wiring at the spindle motor but from the previous diagram it looks like only two wires required

Wondring what the missing fuse does? And the little 12v indian gismo which looks like the meece have been chewing

5v and 12 V lights showing so something is promising

I have a BOB and a serial cable so now wondering where to find the appropriate connections to feed the drivers .

Thanks in advance to those who can point me in the right direction

[Doddy]

Indian gismo = bridge rectifier. Easy to replace if you want it looking cosmetically okay. Converts incoming AC supply (from a transformer?) to DC.

Missing fuse carrier (rather than fuse) - yeah, a bit of stuff unpopulated on the board - probably for that - at 500mA it's nothing big that you're missing. Maybe an option on a different machine? Don't worry it - it's never been fitted.

Snipped wires... complete guesswork - but the one thing you'd need on a lathe is a spindle encoder - I wonder...

[inee]

Hi
on the pic with the relay, Lift the lid and move the red lever to the opposite side, then switch power on ,try the spindle reverse again. hopefully it will run.
If you hear a clock again don't worry as its probably the relay switching back to fwd, if it does then power up then lift the lid and operate red lever again, reverse should work. let us know how you get on with that.

28813

the snipped wires, don't sweat over it.
The fat middle wire is an earth, the two other wires are a thermal cut out, i think it mentions it in the lenze manual
if the motor still wont reverse, unplug the machine grab a coffee. then do a continuity test on the rev switch, again let us know if it works.

.28812

The grey sleeved wire goes to the two optical sensors one is san index pulse ,the other is for timing, if you remove the panel on the front of the lathe at the chuck end, you can see where it goes to the slit disc inside the pulley cover.
While you're at it check all the interlocks work.
Let us know how you get on, how many wires are in the ribbon cable ?


some where i have a note about connecting a bob to the boards that are already there.

The missing components on the board are mostly to do with using the 3rd stepper driver on the board for the tool changer. Boxford did some weird thing with the turret and one axis sharing the wiring.

That missing fuse is bugging me as it goes into one of the Bridge rectifiers .

[John11668]

Right !
so taking things one at a time .
I operate the stop / fwd / reverse buttons on the panel
Forward and reverse buttons both cause the spindle to operate, but both in forward direction. Both will allow speeding up of the rotation by pressing a number of times , or indeed by holding down . Regardless of whether I press forward or reverse the forward light comes on .

If I then move over the relay switch then the spindle indeed reverses, but all the switches operate as above ie both switches start the reverse motion and still it is the forward light comes on.!

I have tried been given the number of the suppliers "boxford engineer" and have tried to make contact but not holding out much hope
Not that I expect much technical help here . But he is the guy who was supposed to have proved that all the motions were operable.

Looking at the diagram you posted Inee it looks as if operation of RL3 should reverse the direction, and I presume this should happen on operation of the reverse button. I presume the switch is selecting the direction of the static position. If the reverse button starts and accelerates the motion then my logic is telling me that the button is functioning so could it be that the relay itself may not be changing over .

Or maybe I am getting beyond myself here ?? Dont be afraid to tell me if I am.

As you say the missing fuse supplies what looks to me like a bridge rectifier, purely due to its simarlarity in layout to those I see on vintage motor bikes
I could maybe sketch the connections to that

[inee]

hi
Ah vintage bikes ,positive earth, 6v and electrics from lucas the prince of darkness.

Have you tried pressing the manual mode switch, then trying the axis moves ,i seem to remember mine having to have the manual button switched on before i got responce.

Had a quick think, the fwd reverse buttons are dual purpose, in if you press forward then it starts in forward, the fwd button speeds up and the rev button slows down. have you tried,
reset lathe, press rev button then press fwd it should revers and speed up. (sorry had to ask as it's difficult to troubleshoot remotely) :) .

can you also switch the lathe off, switch the red lever on the relay to the other position(rev). then power up the lathe
when you press the reset switch the relay should switch bact to the other side. (if you look at the diagram i posted you will see that the way the 2 relays on board connecting to pins ,12, 13, 14 will make the relay default to one position on power up


You can check the operation of rl3 quite easily, disconnect the machine from the mains, disconnect the board cable( connector 8) board cable.
if you have a power supply simply connect pin 12 to positive voltage then put negative lead to pin13,the relay should clunk, next put the positive lead to pin 14, again negative lead to pin13 and it should switchover.

If you don't have a supply you can briefly short pins 12 to pin 13, then short pins 14 to 13 (the relay should switch over). Be aware that pins 1,2,3,6 and 7 are at mains potential so stay away.


Can you post a close up of the ribbon connector and its terminal block, one of the board under the control panel, and one of the optoisolater board connected to the lenze controller.

Let us know how you get on

[John11668]

Our vintage bike got converted to 12v in order that it could handle a modern starter motor ,which for a 350cc single is quite an advantage . But we did have to replace the old plate rectifier with a modern solid state bit of kit ,
But we digress!

Linking those terminals Inee had no effect but the 24 v supply was not there . There was however 20v at the input of the missing fuse and it looked like the output from the rectifier headed in the correct general direction, so took a risk, replaced the fuse , and switched on
A 24 v led lit up on the board and lo the spindle functions all seem to work as we would expect.

I will post the requested pics you ask for Inee but too late tonight .

Traverses do not work yet, regardless of the position of the Manual switch but someone did say it would be surprising if traverses worked without a computer connected so maybe that should be next step,
I did manage to get hold of the "Boxford engineer " who owns up to not having proven the functions before the machine was sold . It seems he was a factory mechanical fitter and whilst they were trained to carry out limited electronic testing, he relies on an electronic specialist as he needs one.
He does however have a number of spares so might be worth knowing .

One thing he mentioned was that he thought there were traverse limits , to prevent crashes , and it could be that these might be operated .
I will check that tomorrow .
With a serial connector on the machine, I presume there must be some breakout function within the boards. Might it be time to connect a computer and see what gives.
Will it matter whether we are running Mach 3 or UCCNC? I guess we will need to know pin identities, etc but I will not go there until I have the benefit of your invaluable opinions

Looking forward to those .

[inee]

good that the spindle goes both ways.
Mine would jog the axis without a computer attached, gert daft question time, can you turn the pot on the control panel 1/2 way and try again, try with the manual button on
also check the fuses in front of the stepper drivers, (i doubt they will be blown, but its worth checking to knock another potential issue off the list).

The stepper driver manual is available online, download it as it shows how they are wired.

Limits looks like someone's borrowed a part or 2 off the z limit, the black switch just behind the chuck and in line with the top of the z axis is your z limit switch, on top of the axis are a couple of holes this is where the limit switch adj rod fits Yours seems to be either invisible or missing. Operate the switch a couple of times with your finger as they some times get stuck, on the righthand side of the front your lathe is a hole with 4 3mm threaded holes around it, there should be a plate with a switch on it, which allows you to jog off z if the limit switch is on. Don't worry about that now i put it there as i might have forgot to do it later.
If you remove the Boxford plate on the l/h front side it will give you access to the limit switch wires, and the wires for the index and position wires
Don't connect to pc just yet, as it's better to check things work, It does look like someone converted it in the past what to your guess is a good as mine.
let us know how you get on especially after you move the pot,.

My boke i fely dirty when i converted it to -ve earth and fitted an old jap reg/rec i found in the shed, put some better coils on and cried when i fitted a boyer ign kit

[John11668]

This bike was a leg breaker so we did not feel guilty having converted to electric start . I was invited to do an article for Old bike mart.so I f you want to give me your email I will send you a copy.

Do you have a pic of what the rod should look like so I can produce something similar.
Most of the limit buttons seem to have a healthy click but the ball switch , RH side back of the perspex guard has no click at all so doesnt sound to be switching anything. I will take it off and check it out but it looks like I need to remove the fan to get at the switch fixings.

Is there a limit on the X traverse ? I dont see one.

While I am checking these I will take and post pics of the things you asked for .

[John11668]

Some pics as requested

28814

28815

28816

Am in the process of checking continuity through switches ( they certainly didnt stint on interlocks) and looks like there are two circuits
Would be nice to have a wiring circuit for interlocks to be able to test end to end .. I cant see where these are connected to the panel

Door to spindle drive belts seems to have 3. A button switch at opening end seems to have been disconnected, ball switch at hinge end has two microswitches.
Have linked out the suspect ball switch on perspex cover although it does seem to be operating, but still no joy with traverses ,with manual on or Off.

Stepper motors and traverses move freely (untill you switch power on and then the motors lock)

Dont seem to be any homing switches ??
I f you guys have any wiring diagrams then i would love to see them .
If not the guy I spoke of thinks he may have some .

[JAZZCNC]

Will it matter whether we are running Mach 3 or UCCNC? I guess we will need to know pin identities, etc but I will not go there until I have the benefit of your invaluable opinions

UCCNC will only work if you have a Motion controller from CNC Drive. Their motion controllers will work both with Mach3 and UCCNC software using plugin for Mach3.

Mach3 and a Simple BOB will get you going providing you can find the Pins out's. However, if your running limits and speed control/direction along with ATC you may find you run out of I/O as the BOB as limited I/O. Personally I would fit an external motion controller anyway just for the reliabilty and to get away from the parallel port.

[John11668]

I do have a UC100 Jazz, so uccnc is not a problem. I was led to believe that to run Mach3 on a 64 bit computer I would need UC100 so am used to using that on a mill . Havent looked to see pin arrangement for lathe . I suspect we have a way to go before we connect the computer

[Doddy]

I do have a UC100 Jazz, so uccnc is not a problem. I was led to believe that to run Mach3 on a 64 bit computer I would need UC100 so am used to using that on a mill . Havent looked to see pin arrangement for lathe . I suspect we have a way to go before we connect the computer

Just to butt-in, use UCCNC for integration and all that, but it doesn't really support lathe operation at all well. That's the only reason I use LinuxCNC on my lathe.

[depronman]

I am using linuxcnc on an Orac lathe. Using two parallel ports one on motherboard and a pci card running an encoder limit switches and a number of control panel buttons. Cycle start stop pause etc. It’s been rock solid since I set it up after the conversion some 8 months ago
I’ve used mach3 but linuxcnc is just sooooo much better
Gmaccopy is a major improvement over axis as a screen interface. All I can say is it just works where as Mach3 would and still does on my other cnc lathe have its moments
I would go to linuxcnc on that one as well but I invested in a pokeys motion controller and don’t want to bin that so mach3 will love on for the time being

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[inee]

xis

[John11668]

I get the principle on the x limit Inee . I can probably rig one of those .
Am replacing the micro in my Fail safe switch . Seems to be switching but no positive click so I dont have a lot of confidence in it ,.
Where is the ring of interlocks connected to the boards . Wires are hard to trace with all the zip ties they have used.

[inee]

that went well
I've added two pics one is of the switch is yours thee same if so either remove the bolts on the perspex cover , or with the cover open drill a small hole in line with the allen bolt on the switch housing. remove the interlocks one by one and give em a clean, they probably have not been cleaned since the 90's.

Some lathes were fitted with limit/homing switches many more have only the limit switch to stop you from machining the chuck randomly, you mentioned 2 circuits for the switches, one is for the Z limit ,t'udders for the interlocks.

Quick question did you move the feed pot on the control panel as from memory if its at minimum the axis will just sit there
Again let us know how you get on.

The boards fitted to yours, i haven't seen those versions, top board is the same on most with different components for differing spec.

When you've got a minute can you move the top board ( easiest way is to remove the tow stepper connectors, remove the nylon nuts, then move the top board over a bit an take a few pics of the lower board., and one of the optoisolated board on the speed controller.

A quick note about new control boards is if you want to use the control panel your going to need at least 16 - 20 inputs.
tomorrow i will find the stepper driver data sheets and the index/timing pinouts

i will also put up the dimensions for the limit switch actuator

would look now but i aint had no sleep since Monday

[inee]

I get the principle on the x limit Inee . I can probably rig one of those .
Am replacing the micro in my Fail safe switch . Seems to be switching but no positive click so I dont have a lot of confidence in it ,.
Where is the ring of interlocks connected to the boards . Wires are hard to trace with all the zip ties they have used.

Cant remember where they connect on the board, what i did when i first got mine was to remove the cable ties and replace em loosely unit i got to the wires i was following, bloody tedious but i got there in the end, i loosely replaced em as it was easier to trace other wires.
just had a look at one of your pics to me it looks like the interlocks are wired to the top board in positions 7 and 8 of the connector which mostly went to the speed controller, havwe a look at one of your images I'm reposting, I've added a yellow circle is the wire in the yellow ring broken(orange wire).
Dead quick check is do a continuity test between those 2 orange wires pin 7 and 8.. if you get no joy try a check between one pin and every wire in the ceramic connector then try the other pin.

was going to log off then had a look at the pics :encouragement:
w

[inee]

I am using linuxcnc on an Orac lathe. Using two parallel ports one on motherboard and a pci card running an encoder limit switches and a number of control panel buttons. Cycle start stop pause etc. It’s been rock solid since I set it up after the conversion some 8 months ago
I’ve used mach3 but linuxcnc is just sooooo much better
Gmaccopy is a major improvement over axis as a screen interface. All I can say is it just works where as Mach3 would and still does on my other cnc lathe have its moments
I would go to linuxcnc on that one as well but I invested in a pokeys motion controller and don’t want to bin that so mach3 will love on for the time being

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Quick question
When i looked into linuxcnc, it said once installed do not update the linux distro.
Is that still the same today or have they found a way to allow update of the linux, was thinking about caelinux as its geared towards cad etc, can linux cnc be added to cae at all

[depronman]

I have updated linuxcnc to the latest development version without issue

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John11668]

May look at linux , but that will be down the linea bit for me . Will probably start with Mach 3
Need to establish what is preventing these traverses from traversing.
Off now to try and trace these interlock wires , Now where did I leave those sidecutters?

[John11668]

Have traced the interlock wiring and tested . All seems fine
Tries the rotary feed controller in all position - no difference

Am I right in thinking that if interlocks were not in there proper positions then spindle would not be expected to start (which it does , forward and reverse and speed variation on both) so relay and lenze controller seem sound .
Will go and inspect the upper board with the stepper drivers .

[John11668]

Pics of boards
28820

28821

Some dubius looking repairs on the upper one ???

Any thoughts anyone

[John11668]

Hi folks .
I have found and downloaded a manual for TCL 160 which includes both mechanical and electrical info and would appear to be virtually identical in the main to 125 and seems to be pretty comprehensive WRT elementary faultfinding.

I will go and have a read.

[Clive S]

Hi folks .
I have found and downloaded a manual for TCL 160 which includes both mechanical and electrical info and would appear to be virtually identical in the main to 125 and seems to be pretty comprehensive WRT elementary faultfinding.

I will go and have a read.

Would you mind putting a link to it if you can.

[John11668]

I will send you a pm Clive.

Site is here , https://www.machinemanuals.co.uk/manual.php?p=204 . Their £12 is a bit better than lathes.co.uk at £65

Looks pretty comprehensive and I wonder if they may be infringing copyright by selling it anyway.
Not sure about the legallity of buying a copy then posting on a forum ??????

Not averse to doing so as long as I know they cant touch you for it.

[inee]

Here's the dimensions of the Z Axis actuator rod.
Forgive the look of it as I'm not good with paint programs. the rod is a 10MM dia bar. The 2 missing dimensions on one pic take from another as for some reason my paint program decided not to allow me to put text on anymore
28826
28827
28828

[John11668]

Thanks for that Inee and to all that have helped me with this thank you too .
Manual doesnt help a lot , but I feel that interlocks and and spindle controls seem OK
Voltages at transformer seem good and seem OK at the board connectors, and all LEDs light up , but I wonder if I can follow supplies across the board.
Any suggestions on best way??

[John11668]

Looks like email of manual pdf is not working .
Will try to copy electrical pages to a word doc and see if that is a better size to send. (Be after dinner though)

[inee]

Hi john
i sent the stepper driver datasheet across via email, hopefully it will help.

[John11668]

I suspect that juice is not getting to the drivers cos not a single one of them are working.
I am about to tackle the supplier about his so called "working machine" . They never checked it .
If I can get the price reduced sufficiently to cover the cost of some new kit then i think i will go for building a new board.
I havent yet checked to see where things seem to be breaking down but that is next step.

[Clive S]

Looks like email of manual pdf is not working .
Will try to copy electrical pages to a word doc and see if that is a better size to send. (Be after dinner though)

It worked for me 118 pages. Thanks

[John11668]

Sent a more brief version of the electrical content for what it is worth

[inee]

John
the steppers lock up when lathe is powered, if so then some power is getting to the drives.

The dodgy wires under the top board were probably fitted by Boxford, i had a few on my original boards.
I would pick an axis button and check for continuity right back to the board, then check from the board connector back to the stepper drives.
Also check from the lower board.

[John11668]

Difficult to trace Inee!

It looks like there is a ring of black ground wires around most of the button switches , and each switch then has a signal wire at 10.6 volts dc.
I also presume that the motion is operated when each of those signal wires is grounded by pressing the button. All the wires seem to be supplied by the 34 wire ribbon connector which also connects to both Microprocessor (Bottom) board and to the feed regulator / potentiometer board on the back of the feed rate switch.

Difficult to follow the ribbon connections.

[JAZZCNC]

I wouldn't waste any time on it just gut it.!!
IME These things are like a box of chocolates and no two are ever the same and you don't know what's been messed or what works or doesn't unless you have seen it working.

Fit 2 x new drives run it on Linux CNC with a couple of parallel ports using £5 BOBS and away you go. Linux CNC is far better for lathe's than Mach3 as it allows multi-count encoders for things like spindle speed or MPG's.
Now I'm a long time Mach3 user and some would say fanboy, so for me to say Linux is better is like pulling teeth with pliers but it's a fact. Thou it's got a bit of a learning curve it will be the better option than Mach3 and much cheaper.

[depronman]

Could not agree more with mach3 for lathe
I’ve converted two lathes to cnc. A boxford B using pokeys and mach3 and a ORAC using linuxcnc. Linuxcnc is far better not to mention cost a fraction of the mach3 solution

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John11668]

I wouldn't waste any time on it just gut it.!!
IME These things are like a box of chocolates and no two are ever the same and you don't know what's been messed or what works or doesn't unless you have seen it working.

Fit 2 x new drives run it on Linux CNC with a couple of parallel ports using £5 BOBS and away you go. Linux CNC is far better for lathe's than Mach3 as it allows multi-count encoders for things like spindle speed or MPG's.
Now I'm a long time Mach3 user and some would say fanboy, so for me to say Linux is better is like pulling teeth with pliers but it's a fact. Thou it's got a bit of a learning curve it will be the better option than Mach3 and much cheaper.

Hi Jazz and thanks for that. (and to depronman )
I was sort of coming to that conclusion that I might need to start afresh, but from the diagrams it seems the spindle selection is run through the boards so just wanting to be sure that If I pitch the boards, I can arrange alternative signals for spindle forward / reverse , speed up , slow down.

Does Linux CNC run in a windows environment or do I have to install a linux operating system too?
Excuse the ignorance on this . My IT skills are limited .

[JAZZCNC]

Hi John,

Linux CNC using the Linux operating system. I would suggest you buy a cheap PC to run it on rather than dual booting with a windows PC.

I won't blow smoke and say straight off there is a bit of a learning curve to Linux CNC and I'm not an expert on it either so won't be much help, but it's got a very good Forum and there are a few Linux users on this forum, Clive S is the Linux CNc guru and if you go this route I'm sure he'll point you in the right direction.

Regards the Spindle controller then it will be simple enough to re-use, forward, and the reverse is done using Contacotors that are controlled with Outputs from the controller and the BOB will provide 0-10V signal required for speed control. This is standard stuff and nothing special or difficult to implement.

The only bit that will get more difficult is if you want to re-use the Jog buttons etc on the front panel rather than using from the screen. Well, it's not actually more difficult and easy enough to do but does mean you require more I/O so you might need a different board like a Mesa card which provides more I/O. But that would be the case no matter which controller you used.!

I suggest you go to the Linux CNC forum and have a look around. Linux CNC can get deep but it's infinitely scalable with the right Mesa cards and there are some very clever people who support it.!

[John11668]

Linux does sound a bit intimidating when and maybe a further complication. I think I would like to get this machine up and running before going to another level.
I have been thinking out of the box
My mill table has plugs on the drive board for each axis cable .

28835


If I were to make two leads to plug into x and z sockets and connect to x and z motors on the lathe then I should at least be able to test the axis motors .
I do have Mach 3 on the computer so should be able to call up a Lathe profile and set it up.

I might not even need to buy any gear at all. A good Yorkshire solution maybe , but must be careful not to upset the Lancashire men

[Doddy]

but must be careful not to upset the Lancashire men

My tuppeneth... Yes, derisk and debug with a known state. I do think LinuxCNC may be something to consider down the line (I use it on my ML7) but walk before you can run.

Just remember to set the motor current appropriately.

[depronman]

Linux does sound a bit intimidating when and maybe a further complication. I think I would like to get this machine up and running before going to another level.
I have been thinking out of the box
My mill table has plugs on the drive board for each axis cable .

28835


If I were to make two leads to plug into x and z sockets and connect to x and z motors on the lathe then I should at least be able to test the axis motors .
I do have Mach 3 on the computer so should be able to call up a Lathe profile and set it up.

I might not even need to buy any gear at all. A good Yorkshire solution maybe , but must be careful not to upset the Lancashire men

It should work for testing
Long term it would not be a great solution
Are the stepper voltages similar?

Re linuxcnc for a basic setup the step and configure wizard will work perfectly
Download the package and burn it to a DVD then pop it in a laptop or desktop and let it boot from the cd. You will be able to run a ‘test’ version to get a feel for it before you install it to a hard drive
I can talk you through the very basics of linuxcnc if it helps
Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

This is one of the best and easiest to use linuxcnc Mint 19.3. Download

http://cnc.beaglebrainz.net/cdimage/cnc-19.3.0-2020909-mate-uspace-64bit.iso

Then use https://www.balena.io/etcher/ This will make a bootable usb stick

Then set the bios in the PC to boot from USB

its as simple as that.

[JAZZCNC]

If you have the drives already then it's a no brainer to use for both. Clive S did this for years and run a Mill and Lathe from same Control box using a change over switch. Obviously you can't run both together but how likely are you to ever do that.?

Like Depronman says for a basic setup the Linux CNC Config Wizzard is easy enough to use and it costs nothing to try. You already have a working machine and know all the I/O pins so just try a Config with the settings for your Router and plug into a parallel port. Lathe is pretty much the same just less axis.

[John11668]

Will give it a try if only to prove the steppers.
Then maybe play a while maybe before I try linux. I suspect I will need some hand-holding if /when I get to that stage .
The computer I am using here cost me £50 3 years ago , and if initially I am not paying for drivers another one at £40 from Ebay isn't gonna break the budget.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dell-Optiplex-Dual-Core-4GB-RAM-80GB-HDD-Windows-XP-Desktop-PC-Computer/263022928229?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOME SPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid% 3D223a1937ed6f417e9d2fb47186f28e45%26pid%3D100005% 26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D2031014274 11%26itm%3D263022928229%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3 D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bD emotion%26brand%3DDell&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

And part of the cost will be getting paid by the guy who told me this was a working machine , only he doesnt know it yet.
What sort of a machine spec will I need to run linux and Am I better with 32bit or 64

And PS Anyone fancy a pair of Boxford boards to fix ?????

[Doddy]

I plumbed for the standard Stretch 2.7 64 bit linux distro. You don't need much to get linux to run, but it needs to run well enough - there's a kernel utility to monitor jitter on the real-time scheduler... On a little i5 (Viglen Genie) that's rock solid, other end of the spectrum with a thin client (AMD Dual-Core T56N) it was useless - at least out of the box. Bear in mind that your real-time performance becomes more critical with parallel interfaces and particularly using a software encoder set-up for spindle position (for threading). I wouldn't aim too low in terms of machine spec. Also, think if you're planning to use Parallel (probably best for a quick intro to LinuxCNC) - in which case make sure that you buy a desktop with parallel port. If you do ultimately go Mesa - I'd suggest a dedicated ethernet port for that - but that's easily added later down the path (though compels you to a machine that will take expansion cards).

LinuxCNC will frustrate you, at least at first. For me I'm still frustrated (why oh why doesn't Axis GUI allow a preset spindle speed on a lathe - and yes, the documentation says it does... but it lies!). Oh yeah - get used to substantial parts of the configuration being dependent on your choice of UI.

Damn, just noticed 2.8 is out. Maybe that's a job for later (I don't care for the older Debian installs). Interestingly there's a new Pi install - I'm not convinced on the merits of a Pi in this role, though. Anyway - 2.8 - don't believe there's much to backup to roll the version/Linux distro forwards. I'd be interested in anyone's experience of this (my current "reconfiguration" of my machines is currently in the heavy lifting phase... be nice to play with the Linux environment instead).

[Clive S]

Am I better with 32bit or 64

64bit as that is the most popular with linuxcnc.

See my post re the linuxcnc ISO.

[John11668]

Hi folks
Both axes jog fine when attached to my PC and Drivers, using my current mill profile and jogging X and Y so looks pretty much like the driver PCB in the machine is shot.
I will set up a lathe profile on Mach 3 just to check that I can operate that!

I will then go back to suppliers and see what they suggest with regard to their misleading description and the work I have put into getting to this point. I think I will insist on a replacement board at least , even if I do not use it.

[inee]

Nice one ,at least you can move forwards now.
:cool:

[JAZZCNC]

Hi folks
Both axes jog fine when attached to my PC and Drivers, using my current mill profile and jogging X and Y so looks pretty much like the driver PCB in the machine is shot.
I will set up a lathe profile on Mach 3 just to check that I can operate that!

I don't think it means it shot, it might just need the Boxford software to work.? I don't think all of them will operate from the front panel without the Software but i could be wrong.!

Also you do realise it's X and Z axis on a lathe, you won't find a Y-axis in the Mach Lathe profile.

[John11668]

I don't think it means it shot, it might just need the Boxford software to work.? I don't think all of them will operate from the front panel without the Software but i could be wrong.!

Also you do realise it's X and Z axis on a lathe, you won't find a Y-axis in the Mach Lathe profile.

I did realise that Jazz but just using the mill outputs for X and Y to drive x and z motors

Engineer believes that the panel should permit manual jogging provided the manual button is selected on. This is also required for the spindle motions to work.
You may be correct but they told me that the machine was in full working order which of course I cant test , but neither could they. I can only presume that their engineer knows his machines. Used to work for Boxford they tell me .

Does anyone have one of these working on Boxford software who could confirm or otherwise ?

[mkultra]

i have two boxford tcl
the first and all original, driver transformer, capacitors, wires, etc.
we have only replaced the original card, created with the same fixing holes, a slightly modified mach 3,
the lathe did not have the cnc turret, I found 2 photos in 2d, I processed them with solidworks and I created a cnc turret, made to make the pieces in china.
added a 3 amp driver and the turret turns, all ok

the second cnc lathe had already been retrofitted, they had removed a large amount of the original system leaving only the spindle driver and motor, transformer.
the retrofit had been done by the old owner but it didn't work, it had some bloblem bugs,
with an experienced friend, in 2 days to solved. had to study all the previous changes and find the errors.
now it works fine.
front panel disabled, only emergency button works.

[John11668]

Hi All
And thanks for your contributions
Am waiting for response from vendor before I decide how to proceed.
Ideally I think I would like to see the machine working on its own panel and if a replacement board gets me there I will press for that.
Then I will look to providing computer inputs from Mach 3 initially before I take the plunge with linux .

So that is current plan . I recognise though that things do not always go to plan, ( well certainly not for me !)

[John11668]

Still awaiting decisions from supplier .

Says he will take the machine back and refund my purchase price , but I have spent so much time on this now and fixed a number of things , that i am reluctant to see that all go back to his benefit .
Additionally he wont reduce his purchase price even though this "full working order" machine turned out to have a dead short, no spindle supply, faulty interlocks and suspected dead driver board.
He maintains he is only obliged to give my money back , no obligation to pay me for work done , even though his "engineer " authorised it .

May have to start naming and shaming!

[John11668]

Right so not much further forward with supplier , and engineer seems to be struggling, but he confirms the machines do work on manual without computer connection or Boxford software.
He is offering to exchange it for a TCL 160, with Turret, and all motions working for about £600 which would take my total expenditure to about £1150 but no account for any work I have done so far. Maybe a bit of haggling needed!
I can see what folks are asking on Ebay but have no Idea what a reasonable value would be for such a machine. What do folks here think??

In addition and going back a few pages here, http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13959-Boxford-TCL-125/page4 , on the pictures of the boards the processor board seems to have an empty slot , just above the one with the green lablel.
Anyone think this might be significant?

[clutchslip]

Your call but if he has offered to take the machine back for a full refund then I would go with that.

Yes you have done quite some work but you've also learned a good deal. Perhaps going back into the market with all your funds intact, and knowing as much as you do now, particularly a little more about what to look out for, you will be able to decide whether buying from a dealer offers any advantages.

[John11668]

Your call but if he has offered to take the machine back for a full refund then I would go with that.

Yes you have done quite some work but you've also learned a good deal. Perhaps going back into the market with all your funds intact, and knowing as much as you do now, particularly a little more about what to look out for, you will be able to decide whether buying from a dealer offers any advantages.

I think we have moved on a bit , Clutchslip.
When I started this thread it was about whether I could make a decent project out of a TCL125 and what might be the best route for that bearing in mind it had been described as working when it wasnt..
So the current offer is for a replacement of that with a TCL160, all motions working and including a turret for about £600 more . I am trying to get advice on whether this is a good deal, or do I stick with the 125, insist on a reduced price ( to finance the parts needed to make it work) and then embark on that as a project.

Seems to come down to whether a TCL160 with turret is good value at £1100 .

[depronman]

I would say it’s a fair value for tcl160

The decision really comes down to your needs. Is a turret tool changer on your list of nice to haves
My person experience of cnc lathes (I have two a Boxford bud that I converted to cnc and an ORAC that I bought as a shell but in nice virtually unused condition and replaced all of the electronics) is that a good quality quick change tool post works well for me
The auto tool changer are good but come with there own limitations so it’s not as clear cut as it would seem at first
If you have a need to make hundreds of the same part then the auto tool changer is a must have but if you are mainly making 1 and 2offs then the manual quick change tool post is a better option if you are making 10 to 20 offs then personally I think the manual tool post is still the better solution
I bought into the QCTP with the splined tool post Swiss made originally. It allows for very accurate tool positioning and takes a few seconds to change tools I have 10 tool holders all pre set with tools that are shared between the two lathes all tools being stored in the tool table in Linux cnc
I can turn brass and ally and stainless steel all day long on the orac to tolerances of +/- 0.0005” and less with care. The tool repeatability is excellent

Also of note the 160 is a slightly larger machine than the 125 but from memory not my very much

Hope this gives you a little more info to base your decision on

One last thing to think about is the 160 working on original boxford electronics or has it been converted to modern drivers motion controller bob etc and if so is it locked to mach3 or open to other control software such as Linux cnc
If still on boxford electronics then at some point in the future it is likely to need to be changed over to modern electronics (stepper drivers, BoB or motion controller etc

All the best. Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

The auto tool changer are good but come with there own limitations so it’s not as clear cut as it would seem at first
If you have a need to make hundreds of the same part then the auto tool changer is a must have but if you are mainly making 1 and 2offs then the manual quick change tool post is a better option if you are making 10 to 20 offs then personally I think the manual tool post is still the better solution
I bought into the QCTP with the splined tool post Swiss made originally. It allows for very accurate tool positioning and takes a few seconds to change tools I have 10 tool holders all pre set with tools that are shared between the two lathes all tools being stored in the tool table in Linux cnc

Very nicely put Paul

[Doddy]

Spoilsports!, just as I start to figure out how to integrate a baby atc onto my ml7 you’re saying don’t throw away the QCTP 🙁

[depronman]

It’s horses for course really
I spent ages looking for an atc for my orac lathe. Decided they are like hens teeth and therefore bought the same qctp as my boxford so it could share tool holders between the machines
I’ve been so impressed I stopped looking for an atc
My jobs tend to be 1 to 20 offs so this works for me
If I was doing 200 offs regularly then the answer would no doubt be different

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

It's a no brainer to me that you get as much money off as possible and gut the machine. No way I'd pay £1100 for 160 which you'll still end up gutting at some point.

Or I'd get the money back and look for another cheaper 125 or 160 and gut that. Either way, if you are using an old Boxford you'll likely end up gutting it for new electronics.

[John11668]

Maybe then it comes down to whether I want a working lathe or a project???
Have to think about that . TCL 125 will give me more of a project and If you are telling me that Boxford boards will need replacing in the future then maybe haggle a bit more off that to fund the replacement boards .
And as it is already standing in my workshop then maybe the way to go

Nice to have the other views on whether the ATC actually is as valuable as it sounds.

[depronman]

As the 160 been converted to use from a pc or does it need the boxford software ?
This is important if you want a working lathe out of the box as boxford software is both expensive and they may well not even sell it to you

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

Like Depronman says ATC isn't all that.!! .. . .esp the Boxford ATC which IMO are sloppy dinky toys with weak motors, the slightest friction or unbalance and they bind.

If you are not planning on leaving it unattended then a good QCTP will be stronger and more accurate.

[John11668]

As the 160 been converted to use from a pc or does it need the boxford software ?
This is important if you want a working lathe out of the box as boxford software is both expensive and they may well not even sell it to you

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I cant imagine there would be any software included so I expect to have to suss out how to connect whatever software i choose to go with.

[John11668]

Like Depronman says ATC isn't all that.!! .. . .esp the Boxford ATC which IMO are sloppy dinky toys with weak motors, the slightest friction or unbalance and they bind.

If you are not planning on leaving it unattended then a good QCTP will be stronger and more accurate.

All noted ! Will think about it over the weekend but you guys are swaying me away from160

[John11668]

Thinking about this to day.

I will go for the step by step approach and stick with the TCL125 as a conversion project. Maybe a step on the way to something more purposeful.

So I will fillet this , hopefully retaining the the lenze controller for spindle operation, and build a new board with Bob and a couple of stepper drivers, (Cheap chinese variants) .
Will think about the manual panel. It would seem like a nice option. But if all fails may try to include a touch screen .

Would be nice to be able to establish if the existing boards work so if anyone is interested it would be nice to come to an arrangement ?????? Otherwise I just get stuck in !

New thread probably needed for the way forward!

[whamilton121993]

Hi John,

I am currently also rebuilding a Boxford TCL125 which i purchased in many pieces, I am wondering if you would be able to tell me the lengths of the vee-belts that drive the spindle, they did not come with the lathe when i bought it and whilst i can measure to get a good idea, i'd rather have the correct length!

Thanks,
William

[John11668]

Hi william
Good luck with the project . Mine is working well (on Mach 3 ) but by all means stick around as I am migrating to Linux cnc .
Would be good to see your progress too if you could open a thread. Mine was essentially complete although I could not get the Boxford boards working.

My belts are 6x400 and 6 x600 (optibelt ) https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=680024&vat_inc=true

[whamilton121993]

Hi william
Good luck with the project . Mine is working well (on Mach 3 ) but by all means stick around as I am migrating to Linux cnc .
Would be good to see your progress too if you could open a thread. Mine was essentially complete although I could not get the Boxford boards working.

My belts are 6x400 and 6 x600 (optibelt ) https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=680024&vat_inc=true

Thank you John, I have ordered it!