Cncst4060

[petesos]

Am trialing this CNCST4060AB3 for a while to see what its like , Not a serious machine like the Kew ,but it may have potential for the job i have in mind , milling urethane bushes with a 6mm single shank cutter. Basically all it needs to do is trim the over pour off and leave the bush flat on top.So hence having a look at this machine but i can not get the water cooled spindle to work , have looked on you tube for this type of box but no joy so here is a photo of it has anyone got one like it and knows how to get the thing to do something please :nightmare::nightmare::nightmare::nightmare:

Pete28771

[Doddy]

Sorry, Google finds nothing - and i can't see any markings in the photo to identify it.

[petesos]

Cheers Bud
Still can not get the spindle to move ,,,,,need a drink:nevreness:

[Clive S]

Cheers Bud
Still can not get the spindle to move ,,,,,need a drink:nevreness:

Well you need to give a bit more info nobody has a working crystal ball.

What software are you using? etc etc.

How about taking some good pictures of inside the box and how is the spindle connected.

When you say can't get the spindle to move is that in X and Y or do you mean rotate

[petesos]

Sorry guys
Am running mach3 the cnc works fine but i can not and dont know how to start the spindle.
The photo in my first post is all i have . Do i connect it to mach3 to run as it is not as yet . Or do i start it manually so am not really bothered if mach3 works it or i work it manually as long as it spins a cutter.

[Doddy]

Really trying to help but there's not a lot to go on here.

Are you able to, or otherwise unable to open the enclosure for the VFD - there's more in that enclosure than just the VFD, but what is very important to the understanding of this is any interconnect from the internal (USB?) BoB and the VFD controller. That tells us if you have a Mach3-able solution or whether it's manual.

The "r00.0" display indicates it's trying to run, but with "zero" frequency of rotation. I'm hoping that you've tried twiddling the knob on the front and that does nothing?, Also the green and red buttons should start/stop - but possibly just alternate between "r00.0" and "0000" (or something). If the green/red buttons are completely non-responsive then this could be indicative of a Mach3 configuration - and all the more reason to open the box and get some photos.

What you're looking for are at least two signal wires from the BoB - for the Spindle On/Off, and the PWM spindle speed, along with likely a 0v/ground wire. If we know them, and where they are connected on the BoB then we can start to home on the Mach3 settings to give you spindle control.

If there's no wires from the BoB to the VFD, and you've tried the green/red/knob controls, then we need to look at the VFD set-up. But without a model number for the VFD we're guessing as to the parameter list, and the mechanism for changing parameter values. Without care you could end up damaging the VFD, spindle, or both.

We will/can help, but only if we can understand your set-up and equipment, without that - as CliveS says, it's crystal-ball territory.

[Doddy]

...I shouldn't dwell on this... but what's the red rocker switch, labelled VFD, do?, it's shown off, but the VFD is powered - so it's not a VFD power switch (unless it's borked). That's not been slaved to the VFD "Forward" signal has it?, So if you press the rocker on (1) what does the rotary knob do?

And really stupid question - you got no instructions with this?

[petesos]

Really trying to help but there's not a lot to go on here.

Are you able to, or otherwise unable to open the enclosure for the VFD - there's more in that enclosure than just the VFD, but what is very important to the understanding of this is any interconnect from the internal (USB?) BoB and the VFD controller. That tells us if you have a Mach3-able solution or whether it's manual.

The "r00.0" display indicates it's trying to run, but with "zero" frequency of rotation. I'm hoping that you've tried twiddling the knob on the front and that does nothing?, Also the green and red buttons should start/stop - but possibly just alternate between "r00.0" and "0000" (or something). If the green/red buttons are completely non-responsive then this could be indicative of a Mach3 configuration - and all the more reason to open the box and get some photos.

What you're looking for are at least two signal wires from the BoB - for the Spindle On/Off, and the PWM spindle speed, along with likely a 0v/ground wire. If we know them, and where they are connected on the BoB then we can start to home on the Mach3 settings to give you spindle control.

If there's no wires from the BoB to the VFD, and you've tried the green/red/knob controls, then we need to look at the VFD set-up. But without a model number for the VFD we're guessing as to the parameter list, and the mechanism for changing parameter values. Without care you could end up damaging the VFD, spindle, or both.

We will/can help, but only if we can understand your set-up and equipment, without that - as CliveS says, it's crystal-ball territory.

Photos on the way

[petesos]

Here are the photos .
The red rocker switch is VFD on/off
green switch pump
2877328774287752877628772

[petesos]

28777

[petesos]

28777

[JAZZCNC]

Have you tied setting a frequency by twiddling the little knob then using the VFD on/off button. It could simply be wired to the Start/stop inputs.? or Set it to On then try the Start button as it could be acting as a disable for when changing tools.?

So many possibilities and don't let Clive fool you.? His balls are solid Crystal and they work fine, he's just not a psychic ...:hysterical:

[Doddy]

28777

There's content online using the part-number as a google search term that references out to a H100 series VFD manual. Yes, part-numbers are totally different but they are visually very similar. I'm treading cautiously because the part numbers are different.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/yn83lt67jxtbd5m/H100_Series_Manual.pdf/file

Have a quick read and work out how to read the F-parameters (probably SET and Up/Down keys). Read-out (but don't change anything!) the F001, F002, F044, F045, F046, F047, F048 and F049 parameters and report back. Provided that the manual is appropriate for the VFD that will tell us how the spindle on/off and speed is controlled (F001/002) and how 6 discrete inputs wired to the VFD are set to operate (i.e. if they can be used for control).

Also, on the VFD (the bit that connects via a ribbon to the display panel on the front of the enclosure) - there's obviously 220VAC provided into the VFD, and three high-current cables going to the VFD connector, but there's also Black, Red and White cables running under a cover - can you remove the cover and photograph where these are connected to the VFD?, there should be two terminal strips under the cover with the cables connected to individual terminals - that will absolutely help to understand any automation presented to the VFD.

[petesos]

Have you tied setting a frequency by twiddling the little knob then using the VFD on/off button. It could simply be wired to the Start/stop inputs.? or Set it to On then try the Start button as it could be acting as a disable for when changing tools.?

So many possibilities and don't let Clive fool you.? His balls are solid Crystal and they work fine, he's just not a psychic ...:hysterical:

tried every button and not a peep out of it , I have tightened every connector but still no joy

[petesos]

Will do it now

[petesos]

2877828779287802878128778

[Doddy]

Here's the killer for me


28782

28783

You can see along the top-row of the green terminals, the single black wire is connected to GND - that's your 0V reference.

The next row, the multi-core cable (black sheath) - red core is connected to P12, The Black connected to AI1, and white connected to GND - This is the 12V (red), Gnd (white) and Analogue voltage (1) - AI1 - clearly intended for speed control. So, where's the other end of that multicore cable plugged in?

The last, single core, red core is connected to X1 - Programmable input 1 (who's function is bound by the function code F044, as I asked for above), I expect this is bound by F044 to Forward (2). This is your Spindle On/Off control - so where is the other end of this wire?

(apologies - the other images - there's lots of black and red wires - unclear to follow.

BUT, what I'm inclined to say is the control box is configured to operate the spindle under Mach3 control.

If you have X, Y, Z axis working correctly - can you screenshot the Mach3 Ports/Pins Output and Spindle pages.

Really stupid to be asking right now. Have you tried issuing a "M3 S5000" command in the MDI on Mach3? What happens? Try with the VFD switch in both positions.

Last question - where do the two wires on the VFD rocker switch go to?

[petesos]

287842878528786287872878828788

[Doddy]

So, Ports&Pins - the PWM output for the spindle is on this page, under the "Step Pin" column (and to the right the Step Port). This appears to be set to the same as the active Axis A - which gives me pause to think that the pin settings are wrong. First I'd disabled Axis A, unless you have a 4th axis on the router. At least then there's no conflict.

The next point is to try to find which of the output pins are mapped to the PWM output on the control board. The possible output pins on a parallel port - and I know you have a USB interface but these often mimic the parallel port for compatibility reasons - anyway, possible output pins for a parallel port are:

1 - ?
2 - X Step
3 - Y Step
4 - Z Step
5 - A Step - also Spindle Step (PWM)
6 - X Dir
7 - Y Dir - also Spindle Dir (unused function)
8 - Z Dir
9 - A Dir
10 - ?
14 - ?
16 - ?
17 - ?

On the Spindle page - you have the M3/M4 relays set to Output #1, I can't see in the images above the Pins/Ports for Output #1 - if you can screen shot that? We're trying to find/set the pin to control the spindle on/off...

You've not answered the question as to where the single red wire went to - I'm expecting to the control board - if so, is there any printing on the board that could match the PIN numbers above? If there's no indication then there's a limit to the possible options - as above. I think you should be able to toggle the FOR LED on the VFD controller with M3/M5 on the MDI if you configure OUTPUT #1 with the correct pin number.

That'll leave the PWM pin - we'll save that for later (the wife's getting narky).

[petesos]

Ok bud, my Mrs is giving it some to

[petesos]

Have traced the 2 wires from the rocker switch to the vfd
Red wire goes into vfd UX1
Black wire goes into GND on vfd

[petesos]

Have traced the 2 wires from the rocker switch to the vfd
Red wire goes into vfd UX1
Black wire goes into GND on vfd2879728798

[Doddy]

Oh. Interesting, and an unambitious design there. That means that the front panel VFD switch is essentially your Spin-Forward On/Off control. There's a couple of options to extend the use of that, however, the job at the moment is to get the spindle turning.

Mach3 was set to use OUTPUT#1, but we now know that is irrelevant for the wiring that you describe.

The above assumes that function parameter F001 is set to 1. (You've not confirmed this yet)

So, you should know how to turn the spindle on/off.... albeit at zero speed. Can you confirm any visual difference on the VFD display with the VFD switch On and Off - I would expect the "Run" LED to illuminate when switch = On, and extinguish when "Off".


Now, spindle speed control. This assumes F002 = 1, also. (You've not confirmed this yet)
If you do confirm its set to 1, then changing to 3 should, according to the manual, give you speed control through the built-in pot. Try that and report back.

If you want spindle speed control through Mach3 - I'm keen to know if you have a DMM and are comfortable using it. Simply - I'd rather see the behaviour of the board rather than the spindle (just removes a potential source of confusion). If I said that I'd like you to measure the output to the AI1 input, wrt ground, are you happy to do so?, and similarly from P12 to ground? (all references are to the VFD).

Where I'm going with this is to verify that, for different spindle demands you can get an analogue voltage out of the board to the VFD. If that doesn't work then no amount of smacking the VFD is going to work. But I'd like you to confirm the above before I start writing an essay. Also, screen shot of Mach3 Pulley set-up window.

[Clive S]

Have traced the 2 wires from the rocker switch to the vfd
Red wire goes into vfd UX1
Black wire goes into GND on vfd2879728798

Not sure if this is relevant or not.

Looking at ports and pins outputs they appear to be on port 3 and everything else is on port 1

[petesos]

So, you should know how to turn the spindle on/off.... albeit at zero speed. Can you confirm any visual difference on the VFD display with the VFD switch On and Off - I would expect the "Run" LED to illuminate when switch = On, and extinguish when "Off".


YES

[petesos]

Now, spindle speed control. This assumes F002 = 1, also. (You've not confirmed this yet)
If you do confirm its set to 1, then changing to 3 should, according to the manual, give you speed control through the built-in pot. Try that and report back.

Will do it now bud

[petesos]

Now, spindle speed control. This assumes F002 = 1, also. (You've not confirmed this yet)
If you do confirm its set to 1, then changing to 3 should, according to the manual, give you speed control through the built-in pot. Try that and report back.

Will do it now bud

[petesos]

On the vfd we have changed the setting to F002 But nothing happens and on F001 the e stop came on on the vfd

[petesos]

28799

[Doddy]

On the vfd we have changed the setting to F002 But nothing happens and on F001 the e stop came on on the vfd

I'm reading this as, "On the VFD we've checked the setting of F002 and confirmed that this was set to 1. We've changed this from 1 to 3 and set this, but testing with the VFD switch ON, the potentiometer on the front panel still has no influence on the Spindle"

and I do not understand "and on F001 the e stop came on the vfd" - There is no "e stop" indicator on the VFD, is there? You shouldn't change F001 (I don't believe I suggested that you should). The settings/values are taken from the manual thet I'd linked...

28800

[Doddy]

28799


Thanks for this - more and more of what you're showing is the Mach3 is fully / correctly configured (albeit with the manual spindle control, and some conflict on outputs that are not otherwise used) - so I'm reluctant to start suggesting Mach3 setting changes.

[petesos]

ok (this is petes wife as he has gone to cool down and pour a big drink) i have just been going through the settings on the box and this is what i have found fingers crossed you can find something wrong here ,,,,,,, F000 is 0 ,, F001 is 1 ,,, F002 was 1 but i then changed to 3 and for the first time the spindle thing was making a noise but then the estop writing came up on the display and it stopped,,,,, THEN coz i didn't know better i press F003 is 50.0hz and F004 is 51.4hz ,,, i stop after that ,,,

[JAZZCNC]

Why is the outputs set to port 3.? I'd expect them to be set to Port 1 like the motor outputs.!

[Doddy]

Jazz - the outputs aren't in use, though - I agree - strange setting, but the M3/M4 relay outputs = OUTPUT1, but that's ignored with the wiring from the VFD 'X1' input (factory default : Run fwd) through the VFD switch to ground - confirmed by OP with the VFD switch switching the Run indicator on/off.

I'm more curious of : configuring the VFD to use the pot (F002 = 3, as factory, rather than original 1 - analogue input) seems to cause the VFD to crap out with an error - at the first time that it's able to present a none-zero demand. At this stage I'm wondering if the VFD has been configured for the spindle, or if there's a fault in the spindle or the wiring.

[JAZZCNC]

I'm more curious of : configuring the VFD to use the pot (F002 = 3, as factory, rather than original 1 - analogue input) seems to cause the VFD to crap out with an error - at the first time that it's able to present a none-zero demand. At this stage I'm wondering if the VFD has been configured for the spindle, or if there's a fault in the spindle or the wiring.

In that case It needs fixing with a Lump hammer...:hysterical:

[Doddy]

ok (this is petes wife as he has gone to cool down and pour a big drink) i have just been going through the settings on the box and this is what i have found fingers crossed you can find something wrong here ,,,,,,, F000 is 0 ,, F001 is 1 ,,, F002 was 1 but i then changed to 3 and for the first time the spindle thing was making a noise but then the estop writing came up on the display and it stopped,,,,, THEN coz i didn't know better i press F003 is 50.0hz and F004 is 51.4hz ,,, i stop after that ,,,

To be honest, the numbers for F000 through F004 all look good. You can recover the F002 to 1 at any time to change the speed control back from the pot to what should be software control through Mach3.

The problem that I'm thinking, as posted above - up until now the spindle hasn't been driven, by changing F002 to 3 you've removed the software control and put the rotary control into play - and that is as the VFD is configured in the factory - default/standard set-up. Obviously the machine builder configured it differently to be controlled by software - but either/or should be equally valid (they work very much the same way). But whilst the software/Mach3 control system is still a bit unknown to us, by changing to the F002=3, rotary control (pot) we've removed some unknowns, and now the spindle should be under complete manual control. With the VFD switch OFF, and the rotary knob fully anti-clockwise, the spindle should be off. Turn the VFD switch on - the spindle should be "on" but not turning. Rotating the knob clockwise slowly would be expected to result in the spindle spinning faster and faster. What I think OP is saying is that, either with the VFD switch ON, or at least ON and with the knob rotated away from the zero position, that the VFD displays a fault?

If the above is accurate, this moves the investigation away from any Mach3 set-up issue (at this time) to the VFD and spindle.

[Doddy]

In that case It needs fixing with a Lump hammer...:hysterical:


Yes, but we need to work out exactly where to hit it!

[JAZZCNC]

Yes, but we need to work out exactly where to hit it!

I'd start with the BIG black box..:stupid:

[petesos]

[ F002=3, rotary control (pot) we've removed some unknowns, and now the spindle should be under complete manual control. With the VFD switch OFF, and the rotary knob fully anti-clockwise, the spindle should be off. Turn the VFD switch on - the spindle should be "on" but not turning. Rotating the knob clockwise slowly would be expected to result in the spindle spinning faster and faster.


this is still Louse (Petes wife) All this you have wrote (copied above i hope) is doing as you say EXCEPT the spindle makes the noise of spinning but does not spin and when you turn it up to run faster the estop display comes on the box and stops it all

[Doddy]

Thanks - that makes sense (although clearly not what we want). My problem is that you earlier said e-stop, where the manual (if applicable - and that's by no means certain) only indicates the following messages on the 4-digit display...

28801


...and...


28802

Is it possible that the display indicates one of these (left column) rather than "e-stop"?

[petesos]

yes it is one of these i am just going to take a pic of it and send,, back in a min

[Doddy]

I should say - that rotating the knob and you get the noise (but not the rotation) is kinda promising. Though we should limit the number of faults we stress the motor/VFD to. It does suggest at least an approximation of correct behaviour.

There's a a few more checks to try - but first I'd like to bottom exactly the error message (as above). Or, just confirm that the error is "e-stop" and we can consider that the manual above is inconsistent with the VFD - and move to reject that.

[petesos]

28803

looks like E.FoP to me ,, so sorry i just took it it was the way it was wrote to say estop
louise

[petesos]

and i must add i can touch it with no probs but pete gets static from it

[Doddy]

Okay, if I was a betting man that's probably the one I'd have put my money on.

[Doddy]

and i must add i can touch it with no probs but pete gets static from it

Now you're worrying me. Sorry, quick reply just to suggest for now not to operate this until we try a few more things.

[petesos]

ok no prob

[Doddy]

Please describe "get static" - normally a static shock dissipates very very quickly - an immediate jolt followed by nothing. Does Pete get anything more sustained? (lasts more than a fraction of a second)?

EDIT:

Sorry, and from touching what?

[petesos]

When the spindle on/off rocker switch is off nothing happens when i rub my palms over the bed of the cnc or my arms .But when i switch it to ON and i rub my hands on the same part of the bed i can feel some static but when i put mt forearm on the same place i get i good old jolt from it .If i wear my slipers there is no problem but in bare feet is when it happens

[Doddy]

Okay, let's not do that again. :-)

[petesos]

this is louise back and at this point very tempting

[Doddy]

So, some of the bits of information that I'm thinking about:

Spindle On/Off appears to present power to the spindle motor. But also there's some current flow into the metallic frame of the machine - resulting in a light shock sensation. The VFD is indicating a fault with the motor drive output - notionally a short circuit, but it could be through a return earth.

I this point I'm reluctant to support you probing around because my thoughts are that the machine is electrically unsafe. There's an amount of testing you can do with the machine unplugged - but I need to ask if you have a DMM (multimeter) and are confident with the use of one. All testing will be done unpowered.

[petesos]

I blew my multi meter a few weeks ago and am confident using one , but i also remember when i removed the cover of the black box VFD to take photos to post i un plugged it from the mains supply but there was a red neon light flashing on the BOB even though there was no power lead connected and even after 30 minutes it was still flashing so i am now asking myself in the name of safety should i just write to the company and say replace the box as there is an issue of a thousand pounds exchanging hands. your thoughts would be appreciated on this

[Doddy]

I think if that avenue is open, that would be an eminently sensible thing to do.

Explain the Error Code on the VFD and the shock experienced from touching the metalwork of the machine.

You could chase down the fault, replace bits, etc, but at the end of the day this is still the suppliers responsibility.

The red flashing neon (LED?) could be the BoB powering from the USB interface - if still connected to the computer. If so, I wouldn't worry too much and wouldn't pollute the conversation with the supplier with that bit of info.

[Doddy]

and i must add i can touch it with no probs but pete gets static from it

Just goes to show that us blokes are more sensitive souls.

I keep throwing the radio into the wife's bath but she never feels a thing :-( Maybe I need new batteries.

[petesos]

Just done a personal test on the machine and results are as follows.

To start with everything was wired up when it arrived except i had to bolt on the stepper motors.

So with the machine turned ON and like i said i get static and a shock if i rub my arms on the bed

If i disconnect the spindle with the machine turned ON i get no static and no shock on my forearms.

So this would indicate to me that it must be a faulty spindle , so my question is would a faulty spindle with these issues give a code like we have been getting

[Doddy]

Entirely possible. My thoughts are varied but includes insulation breakdown or stray wire from phase pin on the connector to the spindle housing.

I'd pull it apart, but I wouldn't recommend others to try.

The next test was to be a continuity test between the phase outputs on the VFD, then upstream to the spindle harness then the pins on the spindle, as well as a visual check on the terminal wiring but, again, I wouldn't recommend this if a replacement is an option.

[petesos]

Just goes to show that us blokes are more sensitive souls.

I keep throwing the radio into the wife's bath but she never feels a thing :-( Maybe I need new batteries.
:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::h ysterical::hysterical:
Classic

[petesos]

Entirely possible. My thoughts are varied but includes insulation breakdown or stray wire from phase pin on the connector to the spindle housing.

I'd pull it apart, but I wouldn't recommend others to try.

The next test was to be a continuity test between the phase outputs on the VFD, then upstream to the spindle harness then the pins on the spindle, as well as a visual check on the terminal wiring but, again, I wouldn't recommend this if a replacement is an option.

The Mrs will be using the machine a lot when i am at work and although its a temptation to let her carry on messing with it especially the 3 phase side
i think its best to shut it down and request another spindle be sent .
I truly thank you for all your help with this matter and i appreciate the input
Thank you
Thank you all
Pete

[Palletlad]

that's a "Nowforever A100 series" VFD just had a quick look but the one sight that mentions they had it was down. I have the D100 series. hope this helps (PS was still looking but apparently rare)

[petesos]

2882428825

Got the new spindle come today at last , but as you can see from the photos the old spindle has 4 wires connecting it to the plug but the new one has only 3 so is the 4th wire and earth and it just a case of soldering No 1 wire to pole marked 1 and so on , am not sure on this bit , any ideas please.
And the new spindle is a 1.5 kw as the other was a 800w one so could i encounter any problems using the more powerful 1.5 kw spindle

[Doddy]

Okay, those two images are the old and the new spindle?... okay, can see the 800W and the new 1.5kW - makes sense.

The bit that's confused me is that these are 400Hz motors, and the image from the VFD that you provided on the first page of this thread shows that the VFD is rated from 0~300Hz. And the best I can tell from a close-match on the part-number to the NowForever A100 manual (pdf randomly found online) - that's likely rated at around 750W.

So... I have to ask... who's provided the replacement spindle - was this the original machine vendor?, your last post or so was talking about going back to supplier for a replacement machine?, spindle? If so, did they just supply the 1.5kW spindle?

[petesos]

Hi Doddy
Yes i asked the supplier of the cnc to replace the spindle and he told me to go ahead and order one and he will pay for it so that is what i did , i sourced a spindle and sent him the specs on it and he said thats ok go ahead and buy it and i will refund you the cost of the spindle and this he has done

[Doddy]

I cannot recommend using that new spindle with the VFD that you have. The limited frequency range I can handle (it just means a lower maximum RPM - 18k RPM), but the lower power drive means that you carry significant risk of damaging the VFD.

There are settable parameters on the VFD that allow you to set motor current - but my feeling is that these are used to trigger the over-current protection, not to limit the motor current.

The problem now is that you've sourced the spindle - the supplier may be reluctant to support any subsequent change.

...unless anyone else knows more about the VFD motor-current settings?

[petesos]

Understood Doddy
What surprises me as you have so rightly pointed out the capacity of this VFD is rated at 300Hz yet the spindle that came with the machine is rated at 400Hz.
Why would the company send a boxed machine ( brand new ) with a vfd that is not even rated to handle the spindle they put in the box .

So i must ask what sort of price is a VFD box that would handle this 1.5 spindal

[petesos]

Understood Doddy
What surprises me as you have so rightly pointed out the capacity of this VFD is rated at 300Hz yet the spindle that came with the machine is rated at 400Hz.
Why would the company send a boxed machine ( brand new ) with a vfd that is not even rated to handle the spindle they put in the box .

So i must ask what sort of price is a VFD box that would handle this 1.5 spindal

Would the 100Hz short fall in the vfd make much of a difference to the spindle.

So am now thinking shouuld i go and buy another vfd box to run this new spindle

[Doddy]

The frequency is not much of an issue - the spindle is typically a 2-pole motor, which basically means each complete 3-phase cycle1 = 1 revolution. So at 300Hz (300 cycles/sec) = 300 revs/sec. 60 secs in a minute = 18000 revs/min. If you drive at 400Hz, 24000 revs/min. Yes, you can drive the motor at 18000 rpm or 300Hz - that works.

With the original spindle - the VFD is rated correctly for the 800W spindle (or thereabouts).

The problem is the new spindle is 1500W, which is likely to damage the VFD. That you can't spin the spindle as quickly as its designed is another issue, but wouldn't damage either spindle or VFD. Why would the supplier provide that VFD?, you'd have to ask them, but usual suspect would be cost.

[Doddy]

You ask what sort of price for a suitable VFD - that's very much down to what you want to pay. You can get a quality VFD for - I don't know, several hundred quid. You can get a cheap one for fifty quid, that the advert caveats for low-loads only (which worries me). The usual suspect often used is a HuanYang VFD - not the best, but swamped the market with an affordable solution that many of us bought (the market is currently swamped with cheaper versions). Caution is needed with the HuanYangs as the Chinese are known to knock off their own knock-offs, and the suggestion is there are counterfeits out there. For that reason I'm not going to link any because I don't want the responsibility of pointing you at something that could be wrong.

But, to try to be helpful, the basic spec you're looking for is:-

220VAC single phase input, 50Hz
220VAC three phase output, 0-400Hz
1.5kW (higher is okay, lower is not)

[petesos]

Can i ask you Doddy
Am i just as well buying a new 1.5 vfd box and running the spindle from that , separate from mach3 as i need to move on and start machining the urethane bushes and sort out the cost with the supplier later , i see you can get the 1.5kw vfd box for 50 quid or so


Sorry only just seen this post

[petesos]

You ask what sort of price for a suitable VFD - that's very much down to what you want to pay. You can get a quality VFD for - I don't know, several hundred quid. You can get a cheap one for fifty quid, that the advert caveats for low-loads only (which worries me). The usual suspect often used is a HuanYang VFD - not the best, but swamped the market with an affordable solution that many of us bought (the market is currently swamped with cheaper versions). Caution is needed with the HuanYangs as the Chinese are known to knock off their own knock-offs, and the suggestion is there are counterfeits out there. For that reason I'm not going to link any because I don't want the responsibility of pointing you at something that could be wrong.

But, to try to be helpful, the basic spec you're looking for is:-

220VAC single phase input, 50Hz
220VAC three phase output, 0-400Hz
1.5kW (higher is okay, lower is not)

Thank you Doddy
That is plane and simple to me and understand your concern about the cheap vfd .
now to start thinking about this

[Doddy]

Pete, sorry, this appears to have been a less than ideal introduction to CNC.

A word of caution, particularly buying a spindle separately to a VFD, you will likely need to configure the VFD for the spindle - that's the next hurdle. I could suggest contacting the spindle supplier to ask if they have a suitable ready-configured VFD that is affordable.

Just a thought.

[petesos]

Pete, sorry, this appears to have been a less than ideal introduction to CNC.

A word of caution, particularly buying a spindle separately to a VFD, you will likely need to configure the VFD for the spindle - that's the next hurdle. I could suggest contacting the spindle supplier to ask if they have a suitable ready-configured VFD that is affordable.

Just a thought.

Hi Doddy
Just seen this ,,,bugger .never mind onwards and upwards.
Here is a few photos of the VFD that i purchased today , I bought this one as i didn't want to go and spend a load of money on a real good one yet as i would like to see if this set up works first and if it is viable .
The wire for the spindle was marked from 1 to 4 to start with so i soldered Wire 1 to pin 1 . Wire 2 to pin 2 and so on ( this was on the socket for the spindle.
And using my tester on the connectivity setting i tested each wire and connected them as follows

I connected the No 1 wire to the V
No 2 wire to the W
No 3 wire to the U

Then i pressed run and turned up the speed and at H 16 an error message came up.
any ideas please

[petesos]

2884928850

Forgot these

[Doddy]

...okay...

I'll take a look tomorrow night. Hopefully you're getting no shocks off this - but without configuring the VFD I'm not surprised that you've got errors. Try having a look at the manual (a link would be useful if available online - VFDs are all different). Try not running it until we have the VFD configured,.

[JAZZCNC]

Did you set the VFD parameters to match your spindle ie: Voltage, current, freq, etc. If not this could be your problem as the defaults may not match your spindle.
I don't know this VFD and don't have a manual to see the fault codes but the usual suspects for fault codes on startup or slowdown is too fast Acceleration or deacceleration settings.

If you have them set to accelerate too quickly and you call for a high RPM then the VFD try's to get to speed in the set time by dumping high amounts of current into the spindle and this trips a Fault because it pushes higher than the set parameter. Likewise if you haven't setup the VFD parameters and it's on the default which is often set low the same will happen.

[Clive S]

Also the poles the poles 2 or 4, Just a thought. Need the manual

[petesos]

Thanks all
Will photo the manuals

[petesos]

2885128852

[petesos]

Sorry guys got an early 4.00 am start tomorrow need to get a bit of kip

[Doddy]

Then i pressed run and turned up the speed and at H 16 an error message came up.
any ideas please

...So the H016 is some indication of speed (Hz?) - what was the error code?

Also... did the spindle start to spin?, or at least grumble a bit?

...and have you seen this post...


http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12842-Generic-Chinese-VFD-XSY-AT1-Programming-Parameters-Settings

...I've not reviewed it in detail - but superficially it looks good.

[petesos]

...So the H016 is some indication of speed (Hz?) - what was the error code?

Also... did the spindle start to spin?, or at least grumble a bit?

...and have you seen this post...


http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12842-Generic-Chinese-VFD-XSY-AT1-Programming-Parameters-Settings

...I've not reviewed it in detail - but superficially it looks good.

Didnt do anything or any noise


Interesting ...........got to go back to work so will let the Mrs have a go , told her it will be ok to stick her fingers in the VFD wiring:encouragement:

[Doddy]

Hi Doddy
Just seen this ,,,bugger .never mind onwards and upwards.
Here is a few photos of the VFD that i purchased today , I bought this one as i didn't want to go and spend a load of money on a real good one yet as i would like to see if this set up works first and if it is viable .
The wire for the spindle was marked from 1 to 4 to start with so i soldered Wire 1 to pin 1 . Wire 2 to pin 2 and so on ( this was on the socket for the spindle.
And using my tester on the connectivity setting i tested each wire and connected them as follows

I connected the No 1 wire to the V
No 2 wire to the W
No 3 wire to the U

Then i pressed run and turned up the speed and at H 16 an error message came up.
any ideas please

I do think that VFD parameter setting is the way forward on this. But, just thinking about the wording above - I understand about 1 to V 2 to W and 3 to U - that's fine. Provided that the wires 1-3 on the motor are connected to the windings. 95% convinced that they will be, but work checking. You said "using my tester on the connectivity setting I tested each wire" - I don't quite understand your meaning. If I was testing which 3 of the 4 wires then I'd use a multimeter on the resistance range, and measure between wires 1-2, 2-3 and 3-1. These should all read about the same - somewhere around 1-3 ohms (I'm throwing a bit in for meter leads etc). And 1-4, 2-4, 3-4 should be open-circuit (possibly a high value if 4 is connected to the spindle metal enclosure - especially if held in your hand whilst measuring. If I squint hard enough at your words I could guess that's what you mean, but it's worth checking. VFDs don't particularly like having no load connected, and hate having a load disconnected when running, so worth to double check your understanding of your wiring before you power-up again.

Let us know how you get on with this, and the parameter setting. Oh, and note down the original settings for each parameter changed, if already set to non-factory setting in the manual.

[petesos]

Sorry Doddy what i meant to say was with my tester i made sure that the wires went to the correct pin as the wires only have numbers on them with no color to them .
we have copied and put in the parameters from the attachment you sent and here is the result .
The spindle was wining as if it was turning but didnt move until i gave it a spin by hand but once it got to 32000 or there abouts it shut off and ERROR 6
and on the instruction sheet it says error 6 is OVER CURRANT PROTECTION

[Doddy]

Okay, Pete. It's important now to make sure we're on the same page. As tedious as it sounds, can I ask you to post the settings on the VFD from P000 through P127. I know it's a ball-ache, but it's important that we don't make assumptions on what's set in the VFD. Just do it in blocks of 10 - it'll take 10 minutes no more.

For one thing - "32000" - you shouldn't be able to display that, let alone get the spindle to spin at that.

[petesos]

P00=0220.0
p01=0400.0
p02=0110.0
p03=0200.0
p04=0000.0
p05=0000.0
p06=0400.0
p07=0000.0
p08=0000.0
p09=0000.0
p10=0000.1
p11=00000
p12=00001
p13=0000.5
p14=0020.0
p15=00000
p16=00001
p17=00001
p18=0050.0
p19=00050
p20=00080
p21=02800
p22=00010
p23=00005
p24=0006.0
p25=00000
p26=0400.0
p27=0045.0
p28=0040.0
p29=0035.0
p30=0030.0
p31=0025.0
p32=0020.0
p33=0015.0
p34 to p49 =00025
p50=00013
p51=00014
p52=00015
p53=00005
p54=00006
p55=00009
p56 to p61 =00000
p62=00001
p63, 64,65 =00000
p66=00060
p67=28500
p68=0220.0
p69=0255.0
p70=00000
p71=0010.0
p72=00000
p73=31440
p74=02096
p75=00006
p76=15000
p77=00000
p78 to p85 =07000
p86=0020.0
p87=0020.0
p88 and p89 =00025
p90=00002
p91=0000.1
p92=00000
p93=16384
p94=49152
p95=00000
p96=00001
p97=00000
p98=0000.0
p99=00000
p100=30000
p101=00000
p102=00032
p103=0280.0
p104=0260.0
p105 and p106 =00000
p107=13001
p108 and p109 = 00000
p110=00500
p111 to p122 =00000
p123=30000
p124=00000

[petesos]

sorry missed the last ones

P125=00000
P126=00000
P127=65535

[Doddy]

Thanks Pete, appreciate that took a little time. Similarly it's taken a little time to review that. I can see where you have applied the settings linked in the other post on the same labelled XSY-AT1 VFD. Looking at your photo of your manual - there's some small conflict between your printed manual and the settings in the other thread. It could be that different variants of the XSY-AT1 have different settings - good old Chinese crap.

*** FIRSTLY - LOG ALL CHANGES MADE FROM THE ABOVE PARAMETER LIST FROM NOW ON! ****

*** SECONDLY - CHECK THAT YOU'VE VERIFIED THAT YOUR SPINDLE IS WIRED CORRECTLY *** - I'm concerned that you wasn't getting rotation originally - that suggests that your wiring to the spindle is incomplete (one wire disconnected could result in this - you wouldn't get the three-phase rotation with only one coil energised (okay, the other two series-wired in parallel with the first - that would explain why you needed to spin the spindle to get rotation).

DO THESE BEFORE CONTINUING - If there's problems with the wiring then ignore the following...

Anyway, hopefully you made a note of the original values for those changed as I'd suggested?, because some of the parameters mentioned in the link are not included in your (shockingly poor) manual, for example

P078-P085 - not described in your manual, the link I provided says to change from 3000 to 7000. What were these originally set to? (another manual for this VFD says this is the overcurrent settting, so I can understand the value of 7000 (your motor is rated at 6A - or 6000mA). If you have the original values and these were set to 3000 - these could indicate that the parameter is simply excluded from the manual for some strange reason.

Other thread recommends:

P068 = 220 (under voltage setting) - your manual defaults to 160/270 (220V/380V variants)
and
P069 = 255 (over voltage setting) - your manual defaults to 300/500 (220V/380V variants)
... I believe the defaults in the manual to be honest - you can expect your voltage to be measured by the VFD around the min/max of 220/255... I think you need greater head-room - the manual defaults appear sensible. I'd recover these parameters to these. (P068=160, P069 = 300) unless you encounter other problems. Erroneous values would result in over/under voltage errors - you're not currently suffering these.

P067 = 28500?, your manual claims a default of 32500 (I struggle to read the text in the photo) - that parameter should not have been changed - I'll assume you didn't and the value was different to the manual's default value. P067 = "Voltage coefficient"... I've not got a clue what that refers to, and the manual doesn't explain it. There's no near-neighbour in other VFD manuals that I've read.

P021 is listed in your manual as "Reduction Ratio" - default 1 (range 1-100),the link and your setting is 2800 (other manual says - RPM/50Hz). What was the default value if/before you changed this? If this was previously set to 1 (as the manual indicates) I recommend you reset that back to 1. If the default before you changed was 2800... then your manual is just wrong. Let me know the original default value set in the VFD.

P024 is listed in your manual as overcurrent protection buffer - default 3 seconds, link sets to 6 - I'd recover that to 3 to be honest, at least for now. The spindle should get to speed within that time and the current should be stable. Reducing from 6 to 3 may INCREASE the frequency of overcurrent trips, but will protect the VFD/spindle. If




P034 controls the spindle acceleration - the manual claims a default of 50Hz/S (takes 8 seconds to get to 400Hz - max RPM) - your value of 25 will take 16 seconds - very slow to accelerate. Ironically, an online version of the manual says default should be 25Hz/S (so your VFD defaults appear to be consistent with the online manual, not the manual provided - go figure!). P042 is the deceleration - similar. That parameter should not have been changed from the other link - so I assume the value 25 is the default and the manual is wrong? Jazz suggested slowing down the acceleration... I'm cautious - it's already chuffing slow. Worth playing around with, though - try the manual setting of 50 will either improve, or worsen your experience - try it - it shouldn't break anything. Remember to recover to 25 if 50 worsens things. You could try 20, or 15... but it will have a detrimental impact on spindle accel time.

Spindles will take more current than they're rated for during acceleration. I'm really hesitant to recommend the following, but in the absence of any obvious accelaration-over-current setting, and with the P024 set to 3, rather than 6 (as above)... and if P078 was originally 3000, now 7000, then try this at 8000. If, during accelaration the spindle current exceeds the 8A for the time set in P024 then it'll trip. I'm hoping that reducing P024, and tweaking P078 up a little, that the VFD won't trip during the critical acceleration phase, and the spindle will get up to speed. I'm not keen on this solution, but we're fighting a VFD of limited settings.

[petesos]

OK bud
Am checking my wiring from the start again . I wired as i said 1 to pin 1 2 to pin 2 ect but as another check is there a color code used as in say RED to U or Blue to W and so on

[petesos]

Hooraaaaaay this poxy chinky spindle has finally started up and spinning and the problem was in the wiring now its running in reverse but that just needs a wire swapping over i am sure ?????? .
The wiring from the standard black box that came with the machine was all marked from 1 to 4 and no colored wire So for anyone who has bought one of these i sugest you just unscrew the wiring jack on the top of the motor and check fromk the colors if that makes sense and not rely on numerics that someone has written on them .
But now to swap the wires to get it running the right way .......any ideas please

What is the best speed to run this spindle at

[JAZZCNC]

P024 is listed in your manual as overcurrent protection buffer - default 3 seconds, link sets to 6 - I'd recover that to 3 to be honest, at least for now. The spindle should get to speed within that time and the current should be stable. Reducing from 6 to 3 may INCREASE the frequency of overcurrent trips, but will protect the VFD/spindle. If




P034 controls the spindle acceleration - the manual claims a default of 50Hz/S (takes 8 seconds to get to 400Hz - max RPM) - your value of 25 will take 16 seconds - very slow to accelerate. Ironically, an online version of the manual says default should be 25Hz/S (so your VFD defaults appear to be consistent with the online manual, not the manual provided - go figure!). P042 is the deceleration - similar. That parameter should not have been changed from the other link - so I assume the value 25 is the default and the manual is wrong? Jazz suggested slowing down the acceleration... I'm cautious - it's already chuffing slow. Worth playing around with, though - try the manual setting of 50 will either improve, or worsen your experience - try it - it shouldn't break anything. Remember to recover to 25 if 50 worsens things. You could try 20, or 15... but it will have a detrimental impact on spindle accel time.

8 seconds is about the right amount of time to accelrate to 400hz. So if it's not working with 16s then it will only get worse.
What's causing it I've no idea and I can't read that manual very well because the pictures are crap.!

[Doddy]

Hooraaaaaay this poxy chinky spindle has finally started up and spinning and the problem was in the wiring now its running in reverse but that just needs a wire swapping over i am sure ?????? .

...
But now to swap the wires to get it running the right way .......any ideas please

What is the best speed to run this spindle at

Swap any two of the UVW leads to reverse the spindle.

Thanks for reporting back - it's useful for anyone with similar problems.

Speed?, that's the next learning curve for you - depends on cutter size, flutes, material you're cutting, feed rate etc.

They are notorious for being poor performers under 8k rpm.

One last thing was bugging me - is this a water cooled spindle or air cooled?

EDIT: Changed YUV to UVW - apologies - my job involves video systems and YUV was a Freudian slip of the tongue.

[Doddy]

8 seconds is about the right amount of time to accelrate to 400hz. So if it's not working with 16s then it will only get worse.
What's causing it I've no idea and I can't read that manual very well because the pictures are crap.!

Ah, right, my ignorance. I think my settings spin up in about 1/2 that on the Chinese spindle, less on the servo - probably silly amount of energy being hit into the respective motors - I might look to reduce that. 2 or 3 seconds isn't ever going to save the world but it's likely to improve the life of the VFD.

The photos were a struggle. But not as much as the poor manual.

[petesos]

Swap any two of the UVW leads to reverse the spindle.

Thanks for reporting back - it's useful for anyone with similar problems.

Speed?, that's the next learning curve for you - depends on cutter size, flutes, material you're cutting, feed rate etc.

They are notorious for being poor performers under 8k rpm.

One last thing was bugging me - is this a water cooled spindle or air cooled?

EDIT: Changed YUV to UVW - apologies - my job involves video systems and YUV was a Freudian slip of the tongue.

Hi Doddy
It is a water cooled spindle 1.5kw.
I only get freudian after a load of JD :thumsup:

Thank you Doddy for staying with this to help us and if you ever need any eurothane block or sheet let me know :thumsup::thumsup::thumsup:

[Kitwn]

EDIT: Changed YUV to UVW - apologies - my job involves video systems and YUV was a Freudian slip of the tongue.

Nice one Doddy! Make sure you have your Diff Phase corrected and Pic:Sync ratio at 70/30 before going to air!

Run VT!

[petesos]

Evening All
Well i have completed the first part of this upgrade on this chinky machine 6040 and as you can tell had a few problems on the way to get to this point but all sorted now due to the help given on this site , Thank you Doddy for sticking with my problem .:beer:

Now on with my upgrade and for anyone buying one of these chinky machines and paying a fraction of the price of a good well built machine should understand in my opinion that the build quality and materials they use to make them is not of the best quality in some cases ( don't shoot me its just my opinion as i have had 3 of them now and the first one was a good few years ago and the quality has not got any better in this new recent one }

But on saying that they are great for getting you started but i do think they need bumping up a bit in certain areas, This 6040 is not a bad machine for the money but i found that the X axis was a bit weak and holding the spindle you can move it slightly back and forth not due to wear but due to flexing of the materials , so my upgrade was to sort out the flexing as i will want to carve sand stone in the very near future with this machine so i purchased from Amazon a MGN12H Linear rail to give the X axis a bit of strength and to stop the flexing, and as you can see from the photos it fits in snugly on the back of the axis and am very happy to say it works just as i hoped it would work ,.

This little upgrade has cost me 35 quid and a bit of my time and i am sure a little something else will eventually go wrong or break or wear out but that is the nature of the beast but the point i want to make is it is only up to yourself how far you want to go with these machines they are never going to earn you a fortune and never break down but with a bit of cash and a bit of time you can make a half decent machine that does work well .
Pete290122901329014

[Doddy]

Good feedback Pete, and an interesting approach to a problem that you recognised. Don't think of it as money spent, but as understanding gained. Soon have you building your own machine.

Mike

[petesos]

:friendly_wink::friendly_wink::friendly_wink:
Good feedback Pete, and an interesting approach to a problem that you recognised. Don't think of it as money spent, but as understanding gained. Soon have you building your own machine.

Mike

:friendly_wink:
You never know bud

[erniehatt]

Had a similar 4060 machine which also would not run the spindle, ended up buying a seperate VFD and used it manually.