New guy finishing off a mini mill build

[Patcho1961]

Hi everyone, I am a toolmaker and have some experience in using cnc machines, but have decided to build a small cnc mill for fun really.
I'm not getting any younger and I like the idea that a machine can do some of the work while I just push a mouse around... lol.

My question to you guys is should I set the machine up using mach3 or would it be better to use mach4, as I am just starting which would you go for.
I will probably be producing fairly simple components for use in model steam engines and the like and I think mach3 can and would do everything I need, but I don't want to have to learn something new a year down the road if I meet limitations with mach3.

So there you go people, answers on a postcard please and stay safe,

Steve

[pippin88]

Not Mach3. Not developed for many years. Unfixed bugs. You have to pay for Mach3 and Windows.

LinuxCNC - free. You can use the money saved to buy a hardware step generator / interface cards (Mesa)

Centroid

PlanetCNC

Others

[magicniner]

Not Mach4, it's wank and is "developed" by the numpties who buggered the last 3 releases of Mach3!
Linux CNC has inadequate support and disorganised development by non-machinists and shambolic hobby machinists - if you want to learn to set up linux and configure and use something which will still need a PC fill yer boots.
Centroid still requires a Windows PC so you have to pay for it and Windows!

[m_c]

In all honesty, you need to consider what controller you'd like to use.
The parallel port is largely dead (for Mach, anything newer than Win7, or any 64bit OS, it just won't work), so I'd be considering an external motion controller.

If all you want to do is run 3 axes and a spindle, then there are lots of options.
If you want to run 4 axes, and other functionality like a tool changer, then it does reduce options.

In terms of Mach, Mach 3 is probably still the most widely. It is no longer developed, but there is still a quite large community supporting it, and I doubt it's going to disappear any time soon.
Mach 4, I do think has improved greatly, but there doesn't seem to be that much community support for it.

If all you want is a basic 3 axes mill, options to consider are Centroid Acorn (beware of the limitations of the free software), CNCDrive (either UC or AXBB interfaces) and their own UCCNC software, PlanetCNC, or LinuxCNC.
There are also the plethora of other external controllers that rely on Mach3/4, like Pokeys, PMDX, and the cheaper CS-Labs controller.

If you want to run a more complicated machine, then you need to look at more expensive/complicated options, like CS-Labs (they do have their own software, but I've not heard a good review of it yet...), Dynomotion KFlop, LinuxCNC with suitable Mesa Card(s), and lots of other options which I can't think of just now.

[depronman]

I Used mach3 and found it ok but not reliable
Used it on multiple PC’s and the same on them all.
I turned to linuxcnc and have never looked back. It’s rock solid and logical to use
Setup is challenging compared to mach but it’s not as bad as it’s made out to be and there is help out there on here and the linuxcnc forum
Plus it’s free and with a couple of parallel ports at a fiver each and a freebie PC you can do a lot for very very little money outlay

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

Mach3 is an aging dinosaur and Mach4 is full of bugs so best avoided.

The other suggestions are ok but come with their own little traits, like Linux CNC having a steep learning curve for anything more than basic usage. The centroid acorn is a good choice but like been said watch out for the hidden gotchas with the software if you want ATC etc. Cslabs controllers are good but their own software is rubbish and they don't support mach3 anymore only mach4 and that's crap.

My choice without hesitation would be UCCNC and either AXBB-E or UC300ETH motion controller. I've recently changed from years of using Mach3 and fitting various controllers to machines I build, inc Cslabs and I can tell you with complete confidence that UCCNC now knocks the spots of Mach3/4 and is rock-solid stable.

The Motion controllers are of good quality and work well, the only gripe I have is that the motor outputs are not differential, but other than that they are well made and supported. The AXBB-E in particular is a very neat and capable little controller.
CNC Drive is very good with support and obviously because they make the software it's fully supported and any bugs fixed quickly.

The combo of Software and hardware just works straight out the box without any fuss or messing around which isn't always the case with some setups.

[magicniner]

I Used mach3 and found it ok but not reliable
Used it on multiple PC’s and the same on them all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had Mach3 running on 3 different PC for around 5 years with absolute reliability, you obviously made the same mistake on each PC you tried! ;-)
The chap who bought my old CNC Mill is now using Mach3 with an external motion controller, he's very happy with it. :D

[depronman]

Don’t get me wrong it worked and I could make 1 or 2 or sometimes 10 or more of the same component one after each other then for no apparent reason it would lock up and stop on a certain line of gcode
You could stop the gcode and star it from the point of failure or from the beginning then it would lock out on a different line of code
Restart mach3 which meant rehiring then lathe and run the same gcode and it would be ok for a number of runs or maybe fail on the first run
Totally random
I moved to linuxcnc and never had any such failures. Same pc same lathe and control electronics just linuxcnc instead of mach3
This caused me so much frustration over the years

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

I had Mach3 running on 3 different PC for around 5 years with absolute reliability, you obviously made the same mistake on each PC you tried! ;-)
The chap who bought my old CNC Mill is now using Mach3 with an external motion controller, he's very happy with it. :D


Don’t get me wrong it worked and I could make 1 or 2 or sometimes 10 or more of the same component one after each other then for no apparent reason it would lock up and stop on a certain line of gcode
You could stop the gcode and star it from the point of failure or from the beginning then it would lock out on a different line of code
Restart mach3 which meant rehiring then lathe and run the same gcode and it would be ok for a number of runs or maybe fail on the first run
Totally random
I moved to linuxcnc and never had any such failures. Same pc same lathe and control electronics just linuxcnc instead of mach3
This caused me so much frustration over the years

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are both comparing apples with oranges.!!

Mach3 was and is known to be very flaky on the lathe side, for a Mill it's much more stable, but it still and always has done some weird shit for no apparent reason this is a known thing with mach3. Art used to try and nip these things in the bud ASAP but more often than not he fixed one thing and broke three more things, however since brian has taken over nothing got fixed and new hidden bugs have surfaced that will never be fixed. This is one of the reasons why I've stopped using mach3 and moved to UCCNC, it knocks the spots off Mach3 and is rock-solid stable.

[Patcho1961]

Thanks for all the replies and information, i kinda get the idea mach 3/4 is dead and we have all moved on . . lol
I have had a look at all of the suggestions made and i think i will be going down the UCCNC route, but i do have a some questions regarding this
I have the mill setup with drives in place, my control box is built and wired up with a ECG breakout board linked to 3 DM860A micro stepper drivers and all this works with the supplied pennant.
Part of the package I brought was a copy of Mach3 Which i have installed onto my windows XP computer, and mach3 seems to drive it all ok so i know everything works but i cannot get the limit switches and or the estop to work - that is to say when i have them connected Mach3 tells me i am on a limit switch and or the e-stop, when i look in diagnostics screen i dont have any yellow leds lit, i have tried wiring them both ways round No and Nc and neither seems to work, now some times i can hit the reset and mach3 seems ok with all the limit switches connected and will play ball for several minutes before bing the reset starts to flash and it is saying im on a limit switch, it is partly the fact that this is random that i suspect the possibilty of a software fault, but it could be other things any suggestions - wow that was long winded but back to the questions about UCCNC will this work with my current setup i.e windows XP 32 bit, my breakout board and microstepper drivers, it seems to me that the motion controller effectively replaces the parallel port is this the case, or is there more to buy?

hope this all makes some sort of sense, i can post some pictures of my setup so far when i can figure out how too

Steve

[Neale]

"Part of the package I brought was a copy of Mach3"

What was the package and where did it come from? There are quite a lot of flaky pirate copies of Mach3 around that kind-of seem to work. Except that they are riddled with bugs and inclined to fail in various unexpected ways. Do you have a genuine Mach3 licenced copy? This isn't meant as any kind of criticism - if you bought something that says it has a copy of Mach3 it's reasonable to assume that that's what you are getting. However, it isn't always true and it might just be the reason you are seeing peculiar behaviour from Mach3.

[Patcho1961]

The mill and parts were purchased from a model maker who didn't manage to finish the mill conversion, but I agree the copy of mach3 supplied could have been dubious. The version I am attempting to setup with I downloaded from newfangled myself, it is only the demo version as I wasn't sure it would be my preferred software and I just wanted it for testing purposes.
The limit problem I have i assume must be either a bug in my mach3 download or a fault on my breakout board, or indeed there is always the possibility of stupidity on my part

[Doddy]

To answer your question about UCCNC - as a replacement for Mach3 it also requires that you replace your breakout board with a UCxxx/AXBB motion controller. Beyond that, your stepper/drivers are okay. You can read the requirements for UCCNC in terms of host computer for yourself.

Regarding the behaviour of the input limits/estops - you mention bugs, faults or stupidity - the latter is the only one you can fix at low cost :-). Disable your limits within Mach3 and get the estop working predictably. NC/gnd is the better solution - you provide a direct signal path in this case (ignoring that this solution is safer for determination of circuit failure) - I don't know your BoB but some/many require two separate supplies - 5V and a 12-24V - the latter regulated onboard to use as the drive supply for onboard opto-isolator inputs - without that your inputs may not work (but generally just "don't work" rather than be sporadic). Some other hateful BoBs I've encountered don't isolate the inputs and just present the parallel interface of the computer straight to the BoB Input pins (maybe a pull-up and noise suppression cap) - these are highly susceptible to noise and can cause spurious triggers. Mach3 has some debounce settings to attempt to filter electrical noise. A photo of your BoB would help.

[Neale]

Another quick question on the pc you are using (and Doddy is making useful inputs on the BoB side so these are parallel lines of enquiry!) - are you using a laptop or desktop machine?

Laptops can be problematic with Mach3 and use of the parallel port. For one thing, laptop processors have a habit of electronically saying, "hang on a minute - I'm just going to do a bit of internal housekeeping." This might only be for a few tens of milliseconds and as a user you would never notice it but it completely screws Mach3's internal timing. The other issue is that later PCs and especially laptops only supply 3.3V on the parallel port, not 5V as older systems would provide. Both these are good reasons for using an external motion controller which offloads the time-critical bits of the processing and provide cleaner and more reliable signals to the outside world.

As a follow-up - how are you powering your BOB? Does it have its own PSU - plug-in charger-like device? - or running off a USB port? Using the latter can also give issues.

Trouble with your kind of question is that part of the fault-finding process can sound very critical but without knowing a lot of what might seem irrelevant details it's difficult to understand what's sitting in front of you - just blame the bloke you got it from!

[Patcho1961]

Ok people i will try and answer some of the questions and i do understand that trying to fault find with little information is difficult and somewhat annoying.
I am using a desktop computer, dell optiflex running windows Xp 32 bit
the breakout board is from EGC TB6560 3rd generation, it has the display mounted on the board, but you see some with it on a ribbon cable
i will check to see if it requires a separate 12-24vdc supply, but i am using a dedicated 5vdc 5amp PSU to power the breakout board.
I will try isolating the limits within Mach3 and see if i can get the e-stop reliable.
When i am in the diagnostics of Mach 3 and i have managed to get it to reset for half a minute i can operate my micro switches and see the nice yellow LEDs light up so i know the signal is there what i dont understand is where Mach 3 is getting these spurious signals from, i am going to re jig my control box tonight and move the BoB away from the power supplies and other cables, just in case i am picking up electronic noise that could be causing dodgy signals

[Patcho1961]

Oh and one other thing - i believe i have to post at least 10 times before i can post pictures, but i am trying to think of ten things to say so i can upload them

[Patcho1961]

I have set up an album in my profile with a few pictures in it, made it public so hopfully you guys can view it

steve

[Doddy]

Well... that's a crazy little BoB you have there... quite unlike any I've seen, but that what keeps life interesting. Yes, the manual for it (such as it is) describes the supply as a single 5Vdc supply, possibly USB sourced (though you identify that you're driving with a 5V/5A supply - nothing wrong with that.

In trying to understand what you described as spurious triggers from the limit switches and e-stops... the problem is that from those photos in your profile (nice and reasonably clear - thank you!) everything is obscured by the display mounted to the board. What I was curious about was whether the inputs are isolated (Opto isolator/opto coupler) or just hard-wired... and of course the display covers all of that detail - and the manual I found online is less than useful!)

Surrey is sufficiently far away to make me start to lose interest in this - I'm inclined to suggest that if you was to look under the display, near the terminal blocks for the input limit switches to see if you can see 5 Opto-isolator devices (google them for an image) - if these aren't visible on the board then I'd personally be thinking of replacing the BoB with a cheap Chinese (£6) parallel BoB... just to get to a configuration that we're mainly familiar with.

If you're adventurous enough to lift the display from the BoB and get another photo of the main PCB, that could be useful to examine further. Where I am with this is - if your BoB doesn't have Opto-isolated inputs, and you're suffering noise, the replacement BoB, and the cost therein, versus the effort of trying to diagnose (and resolve) a BoB without isolated inputs is a no brainer for me. A good image of the components fit to the main board would be good.

[Patcho1961]

i will endeavour to remove the offending screen, my first ry will be with a screw driver if that does not work i will resort to a hammer.
i do have an BoB supplied with the box of bits i got with the machine but no data sheet on it, maybe i will try swapping them over, totally understand its not worth the time if the offending article is only a few quid.
more just trying to work out if its dodgy chinese board or me being dumb!

[Patcho1961]

screen removed (screw driver worked) pics in album of naked BoB, back of BoB and removed screen

[magicniner]

You are both comparing apples with oranges.!!

My current personal preference for Mill and Lathe is Siemens but the control package alone exceeds the total budget for most conversions :biggrin:

[Colin Barron]

Hi everyone, I am a toolmaker and have some experience in using cnc machines, but have decided to build a small cnc mill for fun really.
I'm not getting any younger and I like the idea that a machine can do some of the work while I just push a mouse around... lol.

My question to you guys is should I set the machine up using mach3 or would it be better to use mach4, as I am just starting which would you go for.
I will probably be producing fairly simple components for use in model steam engines and the like and I think mach3 can and would do everything I need, but I don't want to have to learn something new a year down the road if I meet limitations with mach3.

So there you go people, answers on a postcard please and stay safe,

Steve

You have experience of using cnc machines, would it not be easier to learn DIY controller cnc which i assume is similar. If you purchase a cheap Chinese controller (£200) or a slightly more expensive one (£600). The £200 will have very little backup but there are forums and you tube support. If you choose the £600 you should get more manufacturers support.

[Doddy]

Steve,

The blue-board - that has non-isolated inputs and I would not lose sleep over it being susceptible to electrical noise, resulting in spurious limit/estop triggers.

The green card actually looks quite good. I'm struggling on a Mac to look at it properly (the "trending" articles obscure the images on both Safari and Chrome), but it looks to provide isolated inputs... and ironically isolated outputs (I say that because just about all stepper drivers then have isolated inputs... you can have too-much isolation!). At this point, personally, I'd be trialing the green card. As earlier, you might need a second PSU - check the board silkscreen for. 12-24V... it's need no more than 500mA)

[Patcho1961]

Thanks doddy,
I am planning to swap out the BoB tomorrow, I think I have found the right data sheet for it, it appears to have the ability to have 2 supply inputs (both 5v) or if the jumpers are set right you only need one, we shall see.
I will let you know the results after testing.
For info the board is a DB25-1250

Steve

[Doddy]

I've come across this from another site...

29491

Yeah, you can short VDD to +5V - that will allow you to run on a single PSU. You don't get analogue spindle control (but neither does your other board, and I don't think you're yet set up for it). The '817 opto devices are slow, so you might not get the optimal throughput through the Opto-coupled outputs (as I say... you can get "too" isolated :) ) so keep your drivers at x8 to keep your feed rates up. The slow behaviour on the inputs is largely irrelevant.

If you wanted to go to proximity sensors on limits then you might need to decouple and raise VDD to about 8-12V. The higher you go, the more you may need to add additional resistors on the stepper-driver interface, and on the input terminals. Best to try for now at 5V and bridge 5V/VDD, using microswitches for limits.

[Patcho1961]

OK people, swapped out my BoB and yay, limit switches and E-stop all working fine.
Will spend next week tweaking and I think I might have to do some work on the ball screw to the z as there appears to a lot of backlash.
Thanks to all for your help, I am sure I will have more dilemmas along the way so keep an eye out for my next crisis

Steve

[JAZZCNC]

Dump the parallel port along with the BOB and invest in an AXBB-E, you won't regret it, it will transform the machine and user experience.

You can use either Mach3 or UCCNC with the AXBB-E but I strongly recommend you go with UCCNC as it's fully supported by the people who actually manufacture the controller.
Because of this, it's much more in tune with the hardware and updated when any major changes occur. In real-world use, the motion is much smoother than mach3 and in reliability terms, it's rock-solid stable which mach3 certainly isn't and never will be. It's also much cheaper than Mach3.!

If you do decide to go with AXBB-E or UCCNC then get in touch as I keep these in stock for machines I build and I'm happy to supply them to forum members.

[Patcho1961]

Jazz wish you had said earlier, I ordered UC300ETH + UCSB BoB with cables and UCCNC license from CNCDRIVE on saturday and sent money transfer this morning, would have been easier buying from you I reckon, price was pretty good £173 including delivery but not sure if I will get hit with any import tax given that its coming from Hungary.

on another note where do you buy your ball screws and ball nuts from? I have horrible backlash on the Z of my machine as the screw and nut have been badly fitted so I want to replace at least the Z ball screw and nut, still checking the fitment of the X and Y but they do seem like they have better fitted.

steve

[JAZZCNC]

Jazz wish you had said earlier, I ordered UC300ETH + UCSB BoB with cables and UCCNC license from CNCDRIVE on saturday and sent money transfer this morning, would have been easier buying from you I reckon, price was pretty good £173 including delivery but not sure if I will get hit with any import tax given that its coming from Hungary.

on another note where do you buy your ball screws and ball nuts from? I have horrible backlash on the Z of my machine as the screw and nut have been badly fitted so I want to replace at least the Z ball screw and nut, still checking the fitment of the X and Y but they do seem like they have better fitted.

steve

Sod's law hey...Lol.

Yes, because you have only paid £173 that means you haven't paid EU Vat so you will get hit with UK VAT and Import duty and possibly a ripoff charge by the shipping agent now we are no longer in the EU club.

Ballscrews I buy from Fred at BST in China but they are closed for 3 weeks now due to the Chinese new year holiday.

[Patcho1961]

indeed it is sods law!

I can't be waiting 3 weeks any where in the uk to get something decent?
i have been looking at motion control products in Bournemouth (https://www.automationshop.co.uk/catalog/category/view/s/ballscrews/id/8950/), they sell ball screws and the like made by Gten, they look alright but you never can tell

anyone have experience of buying from them?

[JAZZCNC]

indeed it is sods law!

I can't be waiting 3 weeks any where in the uk to get something decent?
i have been looking at motion control products in Bournemouth (https://www.automationshop.co.uk/catalog/category/view/s/ballscrews/id/8950/), they sell ball screws and the like made by Gten, they look alright but you never can tell

anyone have experience of buying from them?

I doubt they will be machined and they will want 2-3 weeks for that.?

Gten are good ballscrews and you won't go wrong with them or Motion control products but they will probably cost 4x the price than from BST. (but they will be better spec)

[Patcho1961]

Jazz
I have no problem machining them, I have a pretty well sorted workshop at work and I am fully capable of machining any bearing blocks required as well, being as the Z is having to move a lot of weight, even if it is counterbalanced a bit with a gas strut do you think there is any value in using a double ball nut?

steve

[JAZZCNC]

Jazz
I have no problem machining them, I have a pretty well sorted workshop at work and I am fully capable of machining any bearing blocks required as well, being as the Z is having to move a lot of weight, even if it is counterbalanced a bit with a gas strut do you think there is any value in using a double ball nut?

steve

I can't really say if I'm honest because while obviously, a double nut will be better than a single nut the machine is only as good as the weakest link and I don't know your machine. It certainly won't make it worse so if you can afford it then go for it is my opinion on this.!

[Patcho1961]

OK cnc people,
Just an update on where I am at with my mill
I have fitted a new ball nut to the z, turned out there where no balls in the nut on the machine when I got it and the z was running up and down just on the wiper bushes ...lol, so thats fixed now.
I have fitted hardware from uccnc, a ethernet motion controller UC300ETH and a UCSB breakout board along with installing their software, took a little figuring out but not too difficult.
Run some test cuts in acrylic and aluminium tonight which highlighted some backlash in the x but found it was a loose nut on the thrust race, after resetting that cuts where good.
So all in all I'm very happy, still have some guards to make and have to fit a coolant pump.
Would like to thank all who gave me advice and will update you all again in the future when I have produced something worth showing off.
Stay safe all

Steve

[Doddy]

Pics, or it never happened

[Patcho1961]

I will take pics today, apologies didn't realise I had to produce photographic evidence to support my claims of success lol

[Patcho1961]

29579

[Patcho1961]

first attempt cutting ally, 1mm deep cut with 3mm end mil, 50mm diameter circle, you can see from the pattern left by the cutter i have some backlash or play issues but i think i can sort them out

[Doddy]

Might be a small element of tool deflection at play as well. Good to hear that you're getting on.

[Patcho1961]

29580
new uc300 ethernet card and breakout board wired in
29581
new Z ball screw and nut fitted, when i say fitted i still have to put in the other 4 cap heads but i was eager to test

[Patcho1961]

29582
it could be some of the problem Doddy, but i can see the same pattern in this acrylic test, same settings just different material.

But all in all i am chuffed to bits with the fact the thing works, i do have one more question - who am i kidding, like its going t be the last question!!!

i cut a complex pocket file with lots of short moves and direction changes and the noise/resonance from the steppers was horrible, the file cut ok but seemed to be rattling the fillings out of the machine, can i tune some of this out playing with the stepper tuning?

steve

[m_c]

That looks like some quite bad backlash.
I'd start with measuring to see what backlash there is, before worrying about any tuning.

[Kitwn]

After you check the backlash you might check the acceleration setting in your controller software as well. Winding this back will increase the cuting time for complex shapes but reduce the shaking.