OpenBuilds Style Build

[WoodKnot]

Hello all -

So the main parts of my build are all arriving today -

C Beam Extrusions, Ball screws and Linear Rails, motors, power supply and some fittings.

The idea is to get all the rails onto the extrusion then fasten it together, so i can then make some templates from 6mm MR MDF for all of my plates.

A few questions in advance -

What is best product to remove all of the excess oil from the rails?

What is the best way to align the rails to the profiles to maintain exact parallel along the length?

My build has twin 20mm linear rails on each axis -

I have loads of squares and clamps to get it all square and true, but little in the way of precision engineering tools.

Thanks

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

Good luck and enjoy the work.

Q1: I just use a rag, just wipe it off until it feels clean. Normally the carriages come uninstalled. Be careful when you slide them on, so that you don't lose any of the balls.

Q2: I don't think there is a universal "best and only" solution. Depends on the situation, place, distance between and some other things. Use your imagination, test and correct if necessary. Spend as much time as needed, don't hurry because you will regret it.

[WoodKnot]

Good luck and enjoy the work.

Q1: I just use a rag, just wipe it off until it feels clean. Normally the carriages come uninstalled. Be careful when you slide them on, so that you don't lose any of the balls.

Q2: I don't think there is a universal "best and only" solution. Depends on the situation, place, distance between and some other things. Use your imagination, test and correct if necessary. Spend as much time as needed, don't hurry because you will regret it.

Thanks A Camera,

Yes, i thought about cutting some sort of guide then using that as a reference to the width along the length.. I do have some digital callipers to test my self cut guide for accuracy.

Appreciate the comments - I know its going to take me some time!

I did purchase extra lengths of standard extrusion so i can play around with the base to make it more rigid, or perhaps create more height etc.

Like I have said before - the image is there but I am likely to change things as I go along

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

You don't need to worry about aligning the rails to the profile, all you need to worry about is that the rails are parallel to each other and on the same Plane.
If you align the rails to the profiles and the frame or the profiles are not perfectly parallel or bent then you will get binding and other issues.

Likewise same with the Gantry, don't square the gantry to the frame or profiles, square it to the Master rail.

The way to approach it is to select one rail as the Master rail, fasten the master rail down roughly parallel to the profile, then using the most accurate straight edge available fasten it down making sure it's perfectly straight. Now you take all measurements and alignments for things like ball screws from this Master rail.

To parallel the other rail to the Master you rail you can do it several ways.
#1 Leave the rail loose and fit the gantry then using the gantry run the carriages up the rail and tighten down as you go feeling for any tight spots, if any tight spots tweak the rail in that spot.
#2 Use a dial indicator on a beam fixed to a carriage on the Master rail.
#3 Use a parallel bar set to the width you want the rails apart and run up the length of the rail tightening as you go, this is similar to using the gantry.

In all 3 cases, a little fine-tuning might be needed to eliminate any tight spots, but the Key is taking all measurements from the Master rail.

[WoodKnot]

You don't need to worry about aligning the rails to the profile, all you need to worry about is that the rails are parallel to each other and on the same Plane.
If you align the rails to the profiles and the frame or the profiles are not perfectly parallel or bent then you will get binding and other issues.

Likewise same with the Gantry, don't square the gantry to the frame or profiles, square it to the Master rail.

The way to approach it is to select one rail as the Master rail, fasten the master rail down roughly parallel to the profile, then using the most accurate straight edge available fasten it down making sure it's perfectly straight. Now you take all measurements and alignments for things like ball screws from this Master rail.

To parallel the other rail to the Master you rail you can do it several ways.
#1 Leave the rail loose and fit the gantry then using the gantry run the carriages up the rail and tighten down as you go feeling for any tight spots, if any tight spots tweak the rail in that spot.
#2 Use a dial indicator on a beam fixed to a carriage on the Master rail.
#3 Use a parallel bar set to the width you want the rails apart and run up the length of the rail tightening as you go, this is similar to using the gantry.

In all 3 cases, a little fine-tuning might be needed to eliminate any tight spots, but the Key is taking all measurements from the Master rail.

Thanks Jazz, I think I have that!

[WoodKnot]

OK, I think a hugely embarrassing start, everything from the outset seems to be wrong.

Maybe I had made far too many assumptions and that is my fault!

I assumed that the ball screws would be slightly longer than the rails

I assumed that the ballscrew fittings would sit within the C Beam?

It all looks wrong! I don't think I am being a numpty but mine looks nothing like the others, even before I start.

Having parted with the best part of £800.00 just to get started, it's not a good start.

Will post some images in the next post as they are on my phone

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

OK, I think a hugely embarrassing start, everything from the outset seems to be wrong.

Maybe I had made far too many assumptions and that is my fault!

I assumed that the ball screws would be slightly longer than the rails

I assumed that the ballscrew fittings would sit within the C Beam?

It all looks wrong! I don't think I am being a numpty but mine looks nothing like the others, even before I start.

Having parted with the best part of £800.00 just to get started, it's not a good start.

Will post some images in the next post as they are on my phone

WoodKnot

This is really bad news, I am sorry. I thought you bought 45x90 extrusions, which was discussed elsewhere as far as I can remember. The BF/BK12 fits nicely on those, using 6mm T-nuts, even though the most optimal would be 46mm center distance but the 45mm is fine. Anyway, I missed somewhere in the debate that you did in the end go for something else than 45x90. Hopefully you can use the ones you have now to something else and can buy 45x90 for your project. I normally buy my extrusions from Germany, a company named DOLD Mechatronic. (https://www.dold-mechatronik.de/) They have good prices and good quality.

Too bad you wasted some money but I guess the lesson learned is to look at technical specs and drawings. While I never spend time on designing a machine in a fancy 3D modelling software, I do spend a lot of time on looking at drawings and specifications before I order something to avoid mistakes like this. Anyway, this is the reality of DIY world. We make mistakes and we learn and hopefully never repeat the same mistakes. Mistakes are made by the professionals also even in the industry, but their DIY is called prototype. The difference is that the prototype never gets sold, so we only see the nice final product, believing that it always looked like that.

Yes, normally the screws are longer than the rails, but with some smart design you can still have the same movement length as the rails allow, assuming the differences in length are not that large.

Regarding the alignment, I assumed you meant parallel alignment between rails and rails, and between rails and screws, plus squaring. As Jazz says, that's what you should spend time on, not aligning the rails with the extrusions. Of course, it helps if the extrusions are also aligned and squared to each other, but the main thing is that all the rails and screws run aligned and are squared to each other.

[WoodKnot]

This is really bad news, I am sorry. I thought you bought 45x90 extrusions, which was discussed elsewhere as far as I can remember. The BF/BK12 fits nicely on those, using 6mm T-nuts, even though the most optimal would be 46mm center distance but the 45mm is fine. Anyway, I missed somewhere in the debate that you did in the end go for something else than 45x90. Hopefully you can use the ones you have now to something else and can buy 45x90 for your project. I normally buy my extrusions from Germany, a company named DOLD Mechatronic. (https://www.dold-mechatronik.de/) They have good prices and good quality.

Too bad you wasted some money but I guess the lesson learned is to look at technical specs and drawings. While I never spend time on designing a machine in a fancy 3D modelling software, I do spend a lot of time on looking at drawings and specifications before I order something to avoid mistakes like this. Anyway, this is the reality of DIY world. We make mistakes and we learn and hopefully never repeat the same mistakes. Mistakes are made by the professionals also even in the industry, but their DIY is called prototype. The difference is that the prototype never gets sold, so we only see the nice final product, believing that it always looked like that.

Yes, normally the screws are longer than the rails, but with some smart design you can still have the same movement length as the rails allow, assuming the differences in length are not that large.

Regarding the alignment, I assumed you meant parallel alignment between rails and rails, and between rails and screws, plus squaring. As Jazz says, that's what you should spend time on, not aligning the rails with the extrusions. Of course, it helps if the extrusions are also aligned and squared to each other, but the main thing is that all the rails and screws run aligned and are squared to each other.

Thanks A Camera -

Now that i have had chance to get myself orientated this morning - i have checked what everyone else's has used and they are all running 4080!

If I go 45x90, that means all my support extrusions will not fit either!

Most are using much thinner ball screws and also running 12 or 15 rails, where i opted to go 20 to beef it up even more.

I have been looking at the 'carriage' (not sure if that is the correct terminology) that they use on the ball screw to connect to the side plates, this just seems to be a flat plate, nothing like the parts that have come with my ball screws

I need to take some time this evening and re-evaluate the situation.

Thanks

WoodKnot

[AndyUK]

I have been looking at the 'carriage' (not sure if that is the correct terminology) that they use on the ball screw to connect to the side plates, this just seems to be a flat plate, nothing like the parts that have come with my ball screws


Eurgh, the months I spent trying to remember the right terminologies. The moving piece on the ballscrew (a container for a series of ball bearings) is known as the nut. The moving bits on the linear rails are carriages.

[WoodKnot]

Eurgh, the months I spent trying to remember the right terminologies. The moving piece on the ballscrew (a container for a series of ball bearings) is known as the nut. The moving bits on the linear rails are carriages.

Thanks Andy -

Yes, just figured that out!!!!

So................... something has to give!

The least cost option is just to replace the ball screws by the look of it?

I am now trying to figure out which size of thread and flange nut will fit in the 40mm channel.

I intend to keep the 4080 profile and the 20mm linear rails.

I must be able to find something to run in that channel, as everyone else seems to as it is the most common C Beam profile

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

I have approached 2 UK companies that either supply or manufacture and supply ball screw units.

One looks very encouraging as having checked, it looks like i can get away with a 12mm screw diameter based on their technical drawings.

It appears that the OpenBuild machines all use 8mm ACME thread and the nuts are... a bit of a surprise?

Would love to see the comments from Jazz when he see's these!! What a pile of ........................
30140

Anyway - will let you know once i get some replies?

Or the other option is, i get something like the attached images made up to run on my 16mm screws?

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Would love to see the comments from Jazz when he see's these!! What a pile of ........................
30140


I've seen many machines which use Delrin nuts and ACME screws that work perfectly fine in for the right applications, however not very good for CNC for obvious reasons plus they wear out very quickly.


Too bad you wasted some money but I guess the lesson learned is to look at technical specs and drawings. While I never spend time on designing a machine in a fancy 3D modelling software, I do spend a lot of time on looking at drawings and specifications before I order something to avoid mistakes like this. Anyway, this is the reality of DIY world. We make mistakes and we learn and hopefully never repeat the same mistakes. Mistakes are made by the professionals also even in the industry, but their DIY is called prototype. The difference is that the prototype never gets sold, so we only see the nice final product, believing that it always looked like that.

No sorry, the mistake was not listening to the advice given and making very large assumptions without a clue to what was being bought.!

If Woodknot had listened to the advice I gave and done the research on the design and components used, then made at least a 2D drawing to help with dimensions and fit then this wouldn't have happened.
Also, if he had started a Build thread sooner and posted the components in this thread rather than buying first and starting threads all over the Forum there was a much higher chance one of us more experienced builders would have caught this before it happened.

I don't agree with you regards not designing using 3D models.!
All my machines are 100% designed with 3D models, even the ones which never get built and I rarely make mistakes that actually make it to the actual machine as they are all caught in the CAD model. It actually saves wasted money on R&D as a large chunk of the problems are caught on the Model so parts are not being scrapped, (the Camming of parts is another story and I make mistakes regularly) 3D models allow me to see everything and how it fits together so this doesn't happen and the Finished Model is an exact replica of the real finished machine. So much so that all the machined parts are taken directly from the model into CAM software.
Also, if design changes are needed for any reason, it's often a simple tweak and the effects of the change are reflected and obvious instantly.

3D Modeling, even a basic model, can and DOES save you time and money in the long run even for a one-off machine.! This case is a classic example.?

If WoodKnot had modeled just a basic model of the machine using off the self Models for Profile and Bk bearings etc which are provided by suppliers then it would have become obvious they wouldn't fit and this expensive mistake would have been avoided.
Also, it shows and removes the chance of any hidden surprises further down the road which at the moment he will only find out about at the time he comes to this part of the build, which is often too late and again becomes expensive.!

Also, if the machine was modeled any plates and parts which he required machining by outside sources he would have models to give the engineer and reduce costs.

Lastly, at some point in CNC then sooner or later you are going to want to use a 3D model so taking the time to learn 3D modeling while designing the machine will pay off for using the machine and creating G-code quicker.

[WoodKnot]

Thanks Jazz

I did not expect any positive comments.

Yes, I am making mistakes. No, i don't want to learn how to use CAD and just wanted a basic machine to create some simple signs.

Even the most basic things are now causing me issues! The machine screws for fixing the rails to the profiles!

They appear to be M6 through the exit hole but will not take an M6 head.

The M5 head is a reasonable fit but there is a bit of play at the exit hole. I have also measured the protrusion on the 16mm screws and these appear to be just biting into the aluminium profile when tightened down.

To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it.

Again, I am not a damn engineer, I am a hobby woodworker that wanted to make some simple signs and now I need to be an engineer creating full CAD drawings of things i don't want to make!

I can buy Blue OX plates from the US if i had stayed to the standard design!

I feel that this whole process has been nothing more than a huge mistake and have wasted my time and money, as nothing will ever be good enough nor will i ever do it the right way.

So, with a feeling of ever increasing disdain whilst remaining polite -

WoodKnot

[mekanik]

Regarding the socket cap screws for your rails i think you will find that these are 5mm, the clearance in the hole is to allow you to adjust the rail to get it straight. i was going to reply yesterday to your post but without any design drawing to eyeball there was no input i could give.
Don't give up.
Regards
Mike

[phill05]

"To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it."

Knot-Wood To be fair I would think even OX and all the others have small problems with screws they don't just magically fit together all have to work at it.
Even your woodwork you have to plan what you want to make, you cannot hold an image in your mind and expect it to work first time.
If you think this part is hard just wait till you get to the control side of it, where do you think you are going to plug in the wire (maybe in your ears) to pick up your image.

I think you need to sit down and take a long hard look and read at how to build and how to control and make what you are looking for.

Phill

[WoodKnot]

Regarding the socket cap screws for your rails i think you will find that these are 5mm, the clearance in the hole is to allow you to adjust the rail to get it straight. i was going to reply yesterday to your post but without any design drawing to eyeball there was no input i could give.
Don't give up.
Regards
Mike

Thanks Mike

Appreciate that - I thought on top of everything else - something as basic as that - i was just getting frustrated!

Do they have to be socket cap?

There are that many different profiles of 'machine screws' i thought as long as they are stainless steel.

I have bought quite a few different types - but guess what, not socket cap.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a really good website for these kind of parts -

Buying off Amazon Prime for 20 screws per time starts to work out expensive, especially when i need about 128 just to fix the rails on

Thanks again

WoodKnot

[mekanik]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184437108169?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2af14eedc9:g:fBEAAOSwDjlfVgKM&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkP rKr5t53CooMSQt2orsS7UXID%252BRPOSNsnm8kYPghtIWX8yE qubwwXa6FJ%252B8YiscDO3SjShMS47KU4AlCQZmd1komSBS6Y cV%252FqoQecRJYdPUCR3A8keuWgVRLo8IAIY8aY7NDd5Fp3ZO NoH1ZS%252FfqwXVzMmlDdPdnYMGdjaec3KRJvurXGfYtIfQbL M%252B%252Bv0qoAW4Qa9WsZRJIROLvHt7flnX8KS0MfE0GRs1 PNsMGjrt%252B0VMxNM3UOuITo99I3fwB0uiDHQweU4hbhXmJo Yqhfn0ebWLfh3nwmQKqC6kPW%252BK4QBP8iHKlaXiAooxY3eX DSb9bGOzlNCrnoR3YiO5gOKRzw49IeuOgooYuBmdjlfCZt4011 aPxhMAb7ESyqG62XeZyu0QlqLKkErW%252FGYXeRaVBHmHcuzZ X3bgrTwKRWuFz%252FHOSM8DUSZnEX8r8ca9Cg24t2DzVdYMNo OUPO5de6KsKCiJ7ZGo3V3o%252BTU3CjxIgPkL1cDQ9zFZsRAT JDEgHT%252Bm4ZoFiUrKIW7cpKFCiwngiexG6Y9goK7hFCWCUp GJHTS%252F0%252BQcaHSoBUJ9kh5i9icqx%252B1F%252FW6p skPfJomFg%252FdN%252BcCxi4XD2VKIoKLXARLrqWhonArK%2 52BtGTawpj3wZba8uG5y1Z0zvw2b%252F9X2JHNPATYUbMRDq4 joyhPrKQrYxeCndudLw%252FQT3SJThSykfilCyw98X3EE5oJb RrvigKV7%252B2z2B5KYvvEpfhm%252B7a%252BmvB1%252BT8 z7hFsoeg2IaG0v0IVTwrcO%252FtHMe0GFmnWjRRXtCewzq42U AOOE1s0Yw7As4renUX78wuzHMkmwpKkKLDHhnQfmYpfzf83HrW XqGz0%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
I would prefer the steel screws, you can get plastic plugs to seal the countersink in the rail but check on the engineering drawing for your profile rails to see how deep the countersink is.

[WoodKnot]

"To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it."

Knot-Wood To be fair I would think even OX and all the others have small problems with screws they don't just magically fit together all have to work at it.
Even your woodwork you have to plan what you want to make, you cannot hold an image in your mind and expect it to work first time.
If you think this part is hard just wait till you get to the control side of it, where do you think you are going to plug in the wire (maybe in your ears) to pick up your image.

I think you need to sit down and take a long hard look and read at how to build and how to control and make what you are looking for.

Phill

Thanks Phil

I know it was going to be a journey - but not like this -

Ok, as i keep being told, but you see these guys on Youtube, read the reviews -

Home CNC is a plug and play system - the software, the controllers, everything has been built around ease and for it to be scaled up to the thousands, so millions can adopt it.

Yes they have their shortcomings, but these are home machines, for a sign a week if they are lucky!

Easel, Blackbox Controller, Powerpack and some motors and off i go?

Too simplistic?

All i can say is let me try it!

Let me come back if i fail, let me come back if it works

Let me give an honest opinion, in laymen's terms, of how easy, difficult, good, bad or ugly the whole thing is?

That's what forums are for?

I am just trying to keep an open mind.

Just because it has always been done this way, does not mean that there are not alternatives.

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

Thanks A Camera -

Now that i have had chance to get myself orientated this morning - i have checked what everyone else's has used and they are all running 4080!

If I go 45x90, that means all my support extrusions will not fit either!

Most are using much thinner ball screws and also running 12 or 15 rails, where i opted to go 20 to beef it up even more.

I have been looking at the 'carriage' (not sure if that is the correct terminology) that they use on the ball screw to connect to the side plates, this just seems to be a flat plate, nothing like the parts that have come with my ball screws

I need to take some time this evening and re-evaluate the situation.

Thanks

WoodKnot

Are all your profiles 40x80? I tried to catch up a bit and went back in history to try to figure out what you actually bought for parts, but to be honest, I failed. I don't know which parts you bought, or if you just bought a drawing or a complete kit with some modifications of your own. Somewhere else you posted a link to this machine from cnc4you:

30144

Is this similar to yours? Now, I have no idea about the dimensions here, but it looks like mostly 4x120. As you can see, the BK/BF of the X screw is placed over one groove, the picture shows clearly that the BK/BF is fixed through drilled holes in the extrusion between the grooves. That is also possible to do as a solution, but if you have only 40x80 all the way then you have bigger issues. Anyway, it is not clear to me at this stage what you actually bought, how the parts are meant to be installed or what the actual problem is, other than the fact that the BF/BF won't fit into the grooves. In any case, if 45x90 is not working, perhaps 40x120 would work. It adds some costs, but surely, not nearly as much as £800 because I am pretty sure you could save and use most of the stuff, depending on the design. Never the less, it would be a good idea if you posted some pictures, it would help a lot in the discussions. Anyway, if you buy new extrusions I can recommend you buy it from DOLD Mechatronic. (https://www.dold-mechatronik.de/) They have good prices and fast delivery. Some extrusions won't cost you an arm and a leg, and you can easily cut them in your workshop.

I think that the 20 rails are MUCH better than 12, which in my opinion is only suitable for 3D printers, so in my opinion that's a good choice. I also think that using a smaller than 1605 screw is not a very good thing. 1204 may work, but not on such large machine. I am using 1204 on one of my 3D printers. 8 mm ACME is a joke for this sort of thing, it is suitable for 3D printers, but not a large CNC.

If I were you I'd try to make something out of the parts you have, even if in the end it will take longer time. What's been said several times and in several forms is that you must make as a minimum, some sort of plan on how you want the machine to look like. If you do that in a CAD software, that's fine, but it is my understanding that you don't want to do that, so the absolute minimum is to take a piece of paper and a pencil and start sketching, measuring and making drawings. I think Jazz misunderstood my comments, because it sounds like he thinks I am against using software, which I am not. In fact, I do use several, but not for machine design and machine assembly simulation. Even though I am not using any machine modelling software, the mistakes you made would never happen to me, not because of CAD or no CAD, but because I do read specifications, look at technical and mechanical drawings, check dimensions, make sketches and measurements and so on. I think that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that you do that as well, otherwise your build will be extremely expensive and may end up in the garbage if you just ignore things and assume that it will work out somehow. I don't know what sort of things you have made before, but you seem to have a very large and luxurious workshop, especially compared to mine, so surely, even if you only worked with wood before, you must have made many drawings for whatever you made. I am not a wood worker, and my last wood project was two very simple birdhouses, but I made drawings even for those before I bought the material and started cutting up. So yes, drawings are VERY important according to me, but machines were made long before CAD software was invented, so that is not necessary at all. The type of table CNC we normally build is actually a pretty simple machine compared many others which can be made without and CAD software, so that is not required, but careful measurements and drawings are definitely necessary.

[WoodKnot]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184437108169?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2af14eedc9:g:fBEAAOSwDjlfVgKM&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkP rKr5t53CooMSQt2orsS7UXID%252BRPOSNsnm8kYPghtIWX8yE qubwwXa6FJ%252B8YiscDO3SjShMS47KU4AlCQZmd1komSBS6Y cV%252FqoQecRJYdPUCR3A8keuWgVRLo8IAIY8aY7NDd5Fp3ZO NoH1ZS%252FfqwXVzMmlDdPdnYMGdjaec3KRJvurXGfYtIfQbL M%252B%252Bv0qoAW4Qa9WsZRJIROLvHt7flnX8KS0MfE0GRs1 PNsMGjrt%252B0VMxNM3UOuITo99I3fwB0uiDHQweU4hbhXmJo Yqhfn0ebWLfh3nwmQKqC6kPW%252BK4QBP8iHKlaXiAooxY3eX DSb9bGOzlNCrnoR3YiO5gOKRzw49IeuOgooYuBmdjlfCZt4011 aPxhMAb7ESyqG62XeZyu0QlqLKkErW%252FGYXeRaVBHmHcuzZ X3bgrTwKRWuFz%252FHOSM8DUSZnEX8r8ca9Cg24t2DzVdYMNo OUPO5de6KsKCiJ7ZGo3V3o%252BTU3CjxIgPkL1cDQ9zFZsRAT JDEgHT%252Bm4ZoFiUrKIW7cpKFCiwngiexG6Y9goK7hFCWCUp GJHTS%252F0%252BQcaHSoBUJ9kh5i9icqx%252B1F%252FW6p skPfJomFg%252FdN%252BcCxi4XD2VKIoKLXARLrqWhonArK%2 52BtGTawpj3wZba8uG5y1Z0zvw2b%252F9X2JHNPATYUbMRDq4 joyhPrKQrYxeCndudLw%252FQT3SJThSykfilCyw98X3EE5oJb RrvigKV7%252B2z2B5KYvvEpfhm%252B7a%252BmvB1%252BT8 z7hFsoeg2IaG0v0IVTwrcO%252FtHMe0GFmnWjRRXtCewzq42U AOOE1s0Yw7As4renUX78wuzHMkmwpKkKLDHhnQfmYpfzf83HrW XqGz0%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
I would prefer the steel screws, you can get plastic plugs to seal the countersink in the rail but check on the engineering drawing for your profile rails to see how deep the countersink is.

Ha - now there's the joke!!

There is no engineering drawing for the profile of the linear rails, I had to use a digital calliper.

I did check on the sellers website - i could have checked and used others, but thought that i could not guarantee that the profile is exactly the same

There is a technical drawing for the aluminium extrusion though.

Thanks for the links

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Are all your profiles 40x80? I tried to catch up a bit and went back in history to try to figure out what you actually bought for parts, but to be honest, I failed. I don't know which parts you bought, or if you just bought a drawing or a complete kit with some modifications of your own. Somewhere else you posted a link to this machine from cnc4you:

30144

Is this similar to yours? Now, I have no idea about the dimensions here, but it looks like mostly 4x120. As you can see, the BK/BF of the X screw is placed over one groove, the picture shows clearly that the BK/BF is fixed through drilled holes in the extrusion between the grooves. That is also possible to do as a solution, but if you have only 40x80 all the way then you have bigger issues. Anyway, it is not clear to me at this stage what you actually bought, how the parts are meant to be installed or what the actual problem is, other than the fact that the BF/BF won't fit into the grooves. In any case, if 45x90 is not working, perhaps 40x120 would work. It adds some costs, but surely, not nearly as much as £800 because I am pretty sure you could save and use most of the stuff, depending on the design. Never the less, it would be a good idea if you posted some pictures, it would help a lot in the discussions. Anyway, if you buy new extrusions I can recommend you buy it from DOLD Mechatronic. (https://www.dold-mechatronik.de/) They have good prices and fast delivery. Some extrusions won't cost you an arm and a leg, and you can easily cut them in your workshop.

I think that the 20 rails are MUCH better than 12, which in my opinion is only suitable for 3D printers, so in my opinion that's a good choice. I also think that using a smaller than 1605 screw is not a very good thing. 1204 may work, but not on such large machine. I am using 1204 on one of my 3D printers. 8 mm ACME is a joke for this sort of thing, it is suitable for 3D printers, but not a large CNC.

If I were you I'd try to make something out of the parts you have, even if in the end it will take longer time. What's been said several times and in several forms is that you must make as a minimum, some sort of plan on how you want the machine to look like. If you do that in a CAD software, that's fine, but it is my understanding that you don't want to do that, so the absolute minimum is to take a piece of paper and a pencil and start sketching, measuring and making drawings. I think Jazz misunderstood my comments, because it sounds like he thinks I am against using software, which I am not. In fact, I do use several, but not for machine design and machine assembly simulation. Even though I am not using any machine modelling software, the mistakes you made would never happen to me, not because of CAD or no CAD, but because I do read specifications, look at technical and mechanical drawings, check dimensions, make sketches and measurements and so on. I think that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that you do that as well, otherwise your build will be extremely expensive and may end up in the garbage if you just ignore things and assume that it will work out somehow. I don't know what sort of things you have made before, but you seem to have a very large and luxurious workshop, especially compared to mine, so surely, even if you only worked with wood before, you must have made many drawings for whatever you made. I am not a wood worker, and my last wood project was two very simple birdhouses, but I made drawings even for those before I bought the material and started cutting up. So yes, drawings are VERY important according to me, but machines were made long before CAD software was invented, so that is not necessary at all. The type of table CNC we normally build is actually a pretty simple machine compared many others which can be made without and CAD software, so that is not required, but careful measurements and drawings are definitely necessary.

Thanks A Camera

The profiles that virtually everyone on OpenBuilds is using is this - https://ooznest.co.uk/product/c-beam-linear-rail-cut-to-size/

A lot of guys in the US purchase from them in the UK.

Never used a drawing for anything i have made.

I measure the dimensions of what i want to make and where it is going to go and then just get on with making it.

So, i need to make a bookcase for an alcove -

Height, width, depth, height of books from large to small, thickness of material being used, allow for rebates etc - all just written down as physical sizes. No drawings

I look at other designs, profile edges, create radius corners, all based on what i think looks aesthetically pleasing!

I will make use of most of what i have - but the ball screws are to short and will cause an issue as they are the exact length of all my profiles.

Were as the others are oversized generally by 40mm or greater to allow them to pass through the plates and be secured.

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks Jazz

I did not expect any positive comments.

Yes, I am making mistakes. No, i don't want to learn how to use CAD and just wanted a basic machine to create some simple signs.

Ok first off I wasn't having a pop at you or trying to discourage you with negative comments. Most of what I said was and nearly always is said for the sake of others who are thinking to build and reading this. It saddens me that I have to do this and use you as an example of "How not to do it" and I know with 100% certainty, because been here many times before, that if you had done more research and made at least minimal drawings this wouldn't have happened.

Regards learning CAD then how do you think you are going to create parts to cut without even basic CAD.?


Even the most basic things are now causing me issues! The machine screws for fixing the rails to the profiles!

They appear to be M6 through the exit hole but will not take an M6 head.

The M5 head is a reasonable fit but there is a bit of play at the exit hole. I have also measured the protrusion on the 16mm screws and these appear to be just biting into the aluminium profile when tightened down.

To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it.

These things would have happened on those kits as well, they just don't tell you these trivial details.




I feel that this whole process has been nothing more than a huge mistake and have wasted my time and money, as nothing will ever be good enough nor will i ever do it the right way.

So, with a feeling of ever increasing disdain whilst remaining polite -

Ok well nobody's giving up on my watch.! . . .So if we can't make a stubborn bugger listen then I will just have to help him get it sorted out and working..:encouragement:

You probably won't need to scrap the ball screws and I'm sure we can make something to extended them if your only 40mm short, you may lose 40mm travel but won't cost you anything.

However, before we or I can help you further will need to give me a detailed list of what you have and the length and dimensions. Either post it here or drop me an email and I'll help you get this together. YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP.. :loyal:

[WoodKnot]

Ok first off I wasn't having a pop at you or trying to discourage you with negative comments. Most of what I said was and nearly always is said for the sake of others who are thinking to build and reading this. It saddens me that I have to do this and use you as an example of "How not to do it" and I know with 100% certainty, because been here many times before, that if you had done more research and made at least minimal drawings this wouldn't have ha
Regards learning CAD then how do you think you are going to create parts to cut without even basic CAD.?

Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?



Ok well nobody's giving up on my watch.! . . .So if we can't make a stubborn bugger listen then I will just have to help him get it sorted out and working..:encouragement:

Yeah - thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we are both clearly in the same but opposite camp there :joyous:


You probably won't need to scrap the ball screws and I'm sure we can make something to extended them if your only 40mm short, you may lose 40mm travel but won't cost you anything.

OK, open to suggestions - i did have an idea!! an outer plate and an inner plate - how the bloody hell i was going to make them though?


However, before we or I can help you further will need to give me a detailed list of what you have and the length and dimensions. Either post it here or drop me an email and I'll help you get this together. YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP.. :loyal:

All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design :apologetic:

WoodKnot

[Fivetide]

All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

You kind of see my problem -

WoodKnot

I do see the problem

A. you can't attach the stepper coupling
B. It wont reach each bearing also :(

30158

30159

[JAZZCNC]

Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?

Parts, pretty little Signs, or great big honking signs, call them whatever you like they all have to start with lines and arc's so you can generate the G-code in CAM. How do you think you are going to generate the files for cutting if you are not going to use Cad or some Vector drawing software, which is basically a kind of Cad.?

[A_Camera]

Thanks A Camera

The profiles that virtually everyone on OpenBuilds is using is this - https://ooznest.co.uk/product/c-beam-linear-rail-cut-to-size/

A lot of guys in the US purchase from them in the UK.

Never used a drawing for anything i have made.

I measure the dimensions of what i want to make and where it is going to go and then just get on with making it.

So, i need to make a bookcase for an alcove -

Height, width, depth, height of books from large to small, thickness of material being used, allow for rebates etc - all just written down as physical sizes. No drawings

I look at other designs, profile edges, create radius corners, all based on what i think looks aesthetically pleasing!

I will make use of most of what i have - but the ball screws are to short and will cause an issue as they are the exact length of all my profiles.

Were as the others are oversized generally by 40mm or greater to allow them to pass through the plates and be secured.

WoodKnot

Oh, I see. Well, those extrusions are in my opinion far too weak. I was hoping that you at least use 40x80, but those you went for, I see as 20x20 C shaped. Maybe suitable for some very small, light machine with a small DC motor as spindle, but not for a machine of the size and type of use you are aiming at, even if you'd only work with soft wood, I think that would cause you more pain than joy when using it. I think at this stage I'd byte the bullet and start over, trying to reuse the strongest parts (rails and ball screws), not the weakest ones (extrusions), but in any case, I think it's high time to start sketching on paper or in a computer.

Also regarding CAD, I think you must give up any idea about not wanting to use one. I understand that you don't want to spend a small fortune on a CAD software, but there are very capable and useful software out there even for free. FreeCAD is what I am using and as the name says, it's free of charge, unless you are like me and want to donate money to those developers. There are other free CAD and CAD related software out there, and if you are aiming at ever using your CNC then you simply must learn some CAD software, without that, you will have really no use for a CNC. Even a simple freeware like F-engrave needs some understanding and configuration, as well as the CNC software (whichever you plan to use) needs some serious configuration, input file with some G-code containing the correct setup for the material and the cutters, spindle motor and many, many things. It all sounds simple and looks as a simple work, but it isn't. You can, if you are good at low level programming (like I am), create G-code without CAD/CAM, or any other software, using only Windows Notepad, but it takes time and requires a good understanding of G-code, but it is not practical and it takes time, especially if you are not a professional programmer or have many years of experience and knowledge. I started with manual G-code programming and actually created fairly complex items because I was in a hurry and for me it was easier and better this way, while I was trying to find my choice of CAD which I'd be happy with, but I have over 40 years of experience in programming, of which 15 in assembly and C, and the rest is C++, Ada, Ada+ and so on, so with my background it was the right choice, but if I did not have that background, I would have never started with manually programming in G-code. So, while I still stand for what I said, machines can be designed without CAD software, I strongly recommend you to seriously consider some CAD software because you will need it.

Here is a video about FreeCAD and Blender, the guy uses FreeCAD (just like I do) for designing parts and he assembles those parts using Blender, which is also free. I think that this is a very good idea, so I actually installed Blender and will have a look at it for myself.


https://youtu.be/AD_jyBN09jA

I am also not interested in spending a fortune on CAD/CAM and modelling software, but of course, those who work professionally and actually selling machines, these are necessary tools, and commercial ones are expensive for us mortals, so for me the free alternatives are suitable. As I said, FreeCAD is free, but donating is fine, you can actually donate any sum and to be honest, it is a professional software, so those guys and dolls deserve my money every time I update the software. I just installed Blender and that is also freeware (donate ware) and a quick test shows that I like it, but will test more and if I ever use it for real I will donate them as well, just like I donate other software makers. But it is not compulsory, and those software don't have any limitations if you don't donate, so that's good. Many commercial alternatives have free versions, but every time I tried one, I run into limitations, so I gave up on them because even they claim that you get the full version, they are ALWAYS cripple ware, or have some serious limitations in usage time, saving possibilities, maximum sizes or other things which can be frustrating or make life difficult.

In short, you should start consider some sort of CAD and accept the steep uphill it may cause before you get started for real with one.

[m_c]

Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?




Yeah - thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we are both clearly in the same but opposite camp there :joyous:



OK, open to suggestions - i did have an idea!! an outer plate and an inner plate - how the bloody hell i was going to make them though?



All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design :apologetic:

WoodKnot

We need more details.
What profile are the extrusions?
What size are the rails? 20mm?
What size are the ball screws, what type of ball nut is fitted, and what support bearings are fitted?

Either links to what you've bought, or some photos will help us provide suggestions.

[A_Camera]

All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design :apologetic:

WoodKnot

I actually don't see the problem with those lengths. With those lengths you can indeed get the full length movement, which is 1000 - 160 = 840mm. There is no such rule that screws must me longer than the rails. As I said before, it depends on the design, but you always lose at least as much as the carriages take (normally more) so why would there be a problem? The 1605 should be machined like this:

30161

So from the full 1000mm you lose 11 + 39 + 15 = 65mm which means that you have 935mm movement and that is more than enough for your 1000mm rails. ...but you can't build that on a single 80mm wide extrusion, so you have to come up with a better solution. Anyway, we need more details, MUCH more details.

If you absolutely want longer screws, one solution is to cut off a bit of the rails. The length is easy to shorten, just use an angle grinder. But like I said, it isn't necessary to have longer screws at all.

I think by the way that I indeed mentioned NOT to remove the nut, and be careful when installing the carriages because the balls will fall out. But... if that happened, you could collect them all, clean everything and assemble all together again. It may take time, but no big deal. I think you can even buy balls only, in case you have lost some. Here is an example of a seller:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001533634944.html but DON´T buy any without you checked carefully the size and know if you really need some. Note that I have nothing to do with this seller and never had to buy any yet.

[WoodKnot]

Hello all, not had a chance to read any threads yet, but have at a few Images.301623016330164301653016630167

Have to take dog out for his evening walk, catch up later

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

OK, I have read everything that has been said so far!

All the machines that I have seen, watched, use this profile, on wheels, no rails, many belt driven and they knock out some nice stuff.

I know that you have all said they flex, so how are they managing it. Many make 1500mm x 1000mm machines from this stuff!

I thought by putting some HGR 20 linear rails on, that would introduce a lot more rigidity into the build

Most of the upgrades that people are doing is that, but often using 12mm rails and occasionally 15mm rails.

Most are still using 8mm Acme ball screws, I went for Rm1605, so twice the thickness.

Yes, I have seen the issues with long 8mm screws 1500mm long, I believe you call it whip or something else?

So I have exactly 40mm to play with between the rails, less the HGR20 carriages.

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Parts, pretty little Signs, or great big honking signs, call them whatever you like they all have to start with lines and arc's so you can generate the G-code in CAM. How do you think you are going to generate the files for cutting if you are not going to use Cad or some Vector drawing software, which is basically a kind of Cad.?

I know I keep saying it, but Easel is like many programmes I use, you drag and drop image's, choose cutters and routing depths, it generates all the codes and outputs it to the CNC.

Can someone do me a favour and have a look at it?

It's free for a month, has some restrictions, but still very usable

It's very intuitive I think and easy to use.

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

These are the plates that i have been looking at - and if you click on the images for the product, it shows one of the many designs that these are based on

I need to check the difference between the MGN12 carriages and the HGR 20 carriages -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264458290488?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOME SPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid% 3Da5d33044c06441acb8a764fbe34f646a%26pid%3D101224% 26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D253029840711%26itm%3D264 458290488%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26alg v%3DDefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1

WoodKnot.

[JAZZCNC]

OK, I have read everything that has been said so far!

All the machines that I have seen, watched, use this profile, on wheels, no rails, many belt driven and they knock out some nice stuff.

I know that you have all said they flex, so how are they managing it. Many make 1500mm x 1000mm machines from this stuff!

It's not that they can't do it and it's not that you can't make nice stuff on them. I've seen and know people who have built machines using threaded rods on a very flimsy frames which made some really nice stuff, but they took forever, snapped tools for fun because of chatter and vibrations, and for every 1 made 2 or 3 got scrapped. This soon gets NOT FUN and expensive.

I've said it many times but I'll repeat it for others to see.!
These machines are great for learning but if you want to make accurate parts easily and repeatably without breaking tools and with minimal cleanup and frustrations they are not strong enough. The more detailed the work the more frustrating it will be, and this is why many that build or buy these kits only keep them a short period of time before building or buying better-made machines like what I build.
I have sold machines to several people now who started with Shepoko or work bee's etc and they all said the same things regards snapping bits, poor finish, slow cutting, high maintenance, and frustrations, etc.
All of them are blown away at the difference and didn't realize just how poor their old machines were until using a properly built machine.

[WoodKnot]

Ok Jazz -

This looks like more time (a lot more time) and investment than I envisaged.

I think I am going to sell everything that i have purchased!

The sad thing is - i will lose probably half of what is has cost me to date.

I have purchased the power supply, motors, extrusion, rails & screws kits and enough nuts, bolts and fittings to make 3 probably.

Oh well!!

Also, with the learning of all the different elements, i will be an old man before i master it and i am already becoming an old man!

I wanted something as an add on, that's all - it just does not seem to be worth the effort and expense of what I will get out of it.

I am actually in a very fortunate position, being more than able to purchase one, probably several, but that is not the point. (My wife gets annoyed with how much i spend in the garage)

I wanted to build it, but I don't want it to take over my life for the next several months, or years for that matter!

Even just putting all the fiddly bits together so far has taken a good few evenings!

Jazz - I do respect your comments and as an engineer as well, as I meet enough in my work to appreciate someone who knows their eggs!

Yes, i know i will get frustrated, as I have OCD (so everyone tells me) and even now, what I create is never good enough as I am soooo, so self critical.

Yes, I ask questions and challenge and may appear 'stubborn' even? Nearly as bad as you!! :excitement:

Anyway, thanks for the lesson -

A man who never tried will never learn!

Thanks to you and all the rest of you for your time, effort and patience.

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Ok Jazz -

This looks like more time (a lot more time) and investment than I envisaged.

This is exactly why we say do the research and check out other build threads so you get a feel for what's involved and can make this decision before spending money. It's also why we say DONT BUY ANYTHING until you have a clear plan and understand what your buying.!


I think I am going to sell everything that i have purchased!

The sad thing is - i will lose probably half of what is has cost me to date.

I have purchased the power supply, motors, extrusion, rails & screws kits and enough nuts, bolts and fittings to make 3 probably.

Oh well!!

Also, with the learning of all the different elements, i will be an old man before i master it and i am already becoming an old man!

No, you are bloody not.!! . .. Told you NOT ON MY WATCH.
Give me a few hours as I'm currently laying it out in CAD to find a workaround and I'll have you sorted out so can still use the parts you have already bought.
We are cutting parts next week and I will shoehorn you some plates into the schedule somehow.

Regards learning CAD or CAM etc, it's just part of the process and when you dive in it's not that difficult (but it's not as simple as loading a picture and cut like you are thinking) however it's not rocket science.

Edit:

Forget the frame for now until we have a solution, Get on with the electrics, make the motors spin on the bench etc, it will cheer you up a bit and motivate again..:yahoo:
(Don't let the magic smoke out)..:hysterical:

[WoodKnot]

This is exactly why we say do the research and check out other build threads so you get a feel for what's involved and can make this decision before spending money. It's also why we say DONT BUY ANYTHING until you have a clear plan and understand what your buying.!



No, you are bloody not.!! . .. Told you NOT ON MY WATCH.
Give me a few hours as I'm currently laying it out in CAD to find a workaround and I'll have you sorted out so can still use the parts you have already bought.
We are cutting parts next week and I will shoehorn you some plates into the schedule somehow.

Regards learning CAD or CAM etc, it's just part of the process and when you dive in it's not that difficult (but it's not as simple as loading a picture and cut like you are thinking) however it's not rocket science.

Edit:

Forget the frame for now until we have a solution, Get on with the electrics, make the motors spin on the bench etc, it will cheer you up a bit and motivate again..:yahoo:
(Don't let the magic smoke out)..:hysterical:

I said that you were more stubborn than me!

OK, please don't kick the arse out of it for me -

The one thing that we learn (or should do) as we get older is patience?

Anyway, i have loads of jobs this weekend to catch up on and hopefully all on my new cap screws should arrive today, so i was going to get the linear rails on!

I noted that the sleeve that goes over the ball screw nut is exactly 40mm, so i was going to use these as way to get my rails parallel.

Yes, i have even loaded the CAD software and had a go!

I am in charge of many things in my role, including IT funnily enough.

My initial impressions is that it is not overly intuitive but it is free, so will persevere and watch some more videos on it.

Easel was easy and i was creating projects within 10 minutes that looked really good.

I will also pester A Camera as he uses it :hororr:

Thank you Jazz! Top Man!

I hope that I am making life more interesting for you :adoration:

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

I said that you were more stubborn than me!

I noted that the sleeve that goes over the ball screw nut is exactly 40mm, so i was going to use these as way to get my rails parallel.

The 1605 nut sleeve I have is 40x40x52mm, that is true, but you need to use it right, which is the screw holes up, where it is 52mm wide. That is the minimum space you need to have between carriages, unless you come up with a different solution.



Yes, i have even loaded the CAD software and had a go!

I am in charge of many things in my role, including IT funnily enough.

That's good news. Which one did you try FreeCAD?


My initial impressions is that it is not overly intuitive but it is free, so will persevere and watch some more videos on it.

YouTube is full of instruction videos regarding FreeCAD and also the forum is full of useful help and advice. What I don't like is that there are several members who are very arrogant, especially towards newbies, so I never actually posted a question there and not want to be a member. I donate my money to them because I think it's a very good software so they are worth it, but I hate some of the active members because of their arrogance. In fact, I think they are just young teenager nerds, not the actual programmers. Similar to chess.com, where I am a member, some young studs are extremely arrogant, even if they are better than I am in chess, I don't like that.

Anyway, FreeCAD is not intuitive, but I have never seen a CAD software which is both capable AND intuitive. All requires some parameters to set up and the more complex things you design, the more it needs. My usual work flow is to start from a block and carve out the shape I want to make. changing the shapes is easy once you know how to do it, just change a few parameters and everything is adjusted, like it is shown in that video, where that guy models a huge 3D printer from scratch to real thing. OK, for him is easy, since he uses this sort of software on every day basis, but as Jazz says, it's not rocket science. Once you get over the first steep hill you will get going soon. The only tutorial video I ever made is this one:


https://youtu.be/StPobVl_P4Q

I don't claim to be an expert, but a friend asked me for advice because he needed to create this shape but could not get it right, so I made this video to show him one possible way to do it. In FreeCAD some things can be done in many ways, there is no right or wrong, but he needed a quick help, so I showed him my quick way for this simple thing.


Easel was easy and i was creating projects within 10 minutes that looked really good.

I will also pester A Camera as he uses it :hororr:

I have never used Easel and probably never will. Never the less, even if it is easy to carve out something, you must still tell the software all the things about your machine. Even F-Engrave (100% free forever) is simple and can indeed carve out things for you from DXF or image files, but you must tell the software some things about your machine because it does not have any idea about your machine, tools, depths, speeds and so on. Also, if you carve an image file you must tell the size of the file, because a bitmap image is not containing real object data.

[JAZZCNC]

I said that you were more stubborn than me!

OK, please don't kick the arse out of it for me -

Got sidetracked this afternoon so didn't get much done on it today and tomorrow I'm busy but on Sunday I'll come up with a model and a plan.

Post me pictures of the BK and BF end bearings please as there are 2 types that have different options for fastening.

Also not so important but will help me with making an accurate model knowing the size of the base profile. I have the C beam models.

[JAZZCNC]

Post me pictures of the BK and BF end bearings please as there are 2 types that have different options for fastening.

Also not so important but will help me with making an accurate model knowing the size of the base profile. I have the C beam models.

Can't do this if you are not going to give me the info I asked for..:indecisiveness:

[WoodKnot]

Sorry Jazz -

There was a lot going on over the weekend (no not football related) so apologies. It will have to be this evening now.

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

_CaThe 1605 nut sleeve I have is 40x40x52mm, that is true, but you need to use it right, which is the screw holes up, where it is 52mm wide. That is the minimum space you need to have between carriages, unless you come up with a different solution.

Thanks A Camera, yes I appreciate that, i know they don't fit - it was the 40mm size that i wanted, as that will allow alignment of the linear rails as they are exactly 40mm apart



https://youtu.be/StPobVl_P4Q

I don't claim to be an expert, but a friend asked me for advice because he needed to create this shape but could not get it right, so I made this video to show him one possible way to do it. In FreeCAD some things can be done in many ways, there is no right or wrong, but he needed a quick help, so I showed him my quick way for this simple thing.

Will watch your video later this evening - thanks for the link

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Hello all -

So I was initially thinking of using my Dewalt 1/4" router for my spindle -

But thinking of other options, what would you recommend?

Do i need to go water cooled or air cooled? Was also thinking about the noise element as well.

I don't want to purchase the spindle mount until i know which motor I am going to use

Thanks in advance

WoodKnot

[m_c]

Generic option is a 2.2kw water cooled spindle, which eBay usually has abundant sources.
Bit fancier is some of the spindles Jazz is selling, but they will be more expensive.

Water-cooled is the quietest option, but if you've already got a decent router, you can always use that to begin with.

[WoodKnot]

Good evening Jazz, images as requested.

Just about to take my daughter on her driving lesson
3018230183
30184

Sorry, I thought this post went out much earlier

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Let's try again
30185
30186
30187

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

And finally JAZZCNC, the base is sat on 2040 profile

Thanks again

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Generic option is a 2.2kw water cooled spindle, which eBay usually has abundant sources.
Bit fancier is some of the spindles Jazz is selling, but they will be more expensive.

I also have the generic 2.2Kw Wc spindles with Huanyang VFD ..:thumsup:

[JAZZCNC]

And finally JAZZCNC, the base is sat on 2040 profile

Thanks again

WoodKnot

Ok thanks, leave it with me I'll look at it ASAP, I'm going to get very busy shortly as parts for the second batch of routers are arriving any day soon , then it will be all hands on deck getting them built so time will be in short supply.

[WoodKnot]

I also have the generic 2.2Kw Wc spindles with Huanyang VFD ..:thumsup:

OK, never used a water cooled unit? So presume that they come with the pump unit part?

I have also noted that some need an inverter as well? Why do they need inverters?

This seems to be pushing up the cost considerably.

Do i really need this for just routing out a few wooden signs?

Thanks

WoodKnot

[mekanik]

Main reason for using water cooled Spindle is the noise or lack thereof, you need an inverter as they they are three phase, you need to provide a small tank and a pump. you will be fine with an ordinary router but again it's the noise, this would get very old if you are doing a long run on the machine, you need also to be looking at a dust shoe to fit whatever device you wish to use.
Good luck
Regards
Mike

[WoodKnot]

Main reason for using water cooled Spindle is the noise or lack thereof, you need an inverter as they they are three phase, you need to provide a small tank and a pump. you will be fine with an ordinary router but again it's the noise, this would get very old if you are doing a long run on the machine, you need also to be looking at a dust shoe to fit whatever device you wish to use.
Good luck
Regards
Mike

The motors then are quite large? Even compared to a good half inch router then?

Can you recommend a pump and tank Mike - it sounds like an aquarium!

Just trying to figure out what I will need -

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

I also have the generic 2.2Kw Wc spindles with Huanyang VFD ..:thumsup:

Hi Jazz

Have you got a link to see what I am looking at and what sort of cost please?

So i presume that the VFD is separate to the inverter -

Do i need a qualified electrician to install of of this? Considering that we can only add spur these days!

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

OK, never used a water cooled unit? So presume that they come with the pump unit part?

Jazz must answer what is included in his price, but yes, to use a water cooled spindle, you need a pump and hoses and also a big bucket of some sort.



I have also noted that some need an inverter as well? Why do they need inverters?

Yes, for the motor he is talking about you definitely need an inverter. The motor many people prefer to use is a brushless three phase motor. The inverter outputs three phase 220V and you need it to generate that and for speed/on/off control.


This seems to be pushing up the cost considerably.

It is definitely pushing up cost and complexity quite considerably compared to using a simple router you planned to use, but it also increases the quality of your work.


Do i really need this for just routing out a few wooden signs?

No, not really. You have actually several options.

1. You can use an air cooled spindle motor, like I do. The "need" for the water cooled version is really exaggerated on some sites. While when you cut air it is more quiet than air cooled motors, but that benefit is immediately erased as soon as you start cutting because the cutting noise is taking over. Once you use the spindle for real cutting, the noise benefits are gone. Personally I'd never use a water cooled motor, been happily using my air cooled for a long time now. I even use it at slow speeds (4500rpm) to drill in aluminium and plastics, done that for a long time now and still no issues. Many claim that you can't use air cooled spindles because the dust will be blown all over the place. Now, I don't cut wood, except the waste board surfacing, but PCB generates a lot of fine dust and it really isn't an issue at all. Of course, regardless of what you cut, a dust shoe is highly recommended, but that is valid also for water cooled spindle.

2. You can use other type of spindles, everything between a Dremel to any router you can mount on the Z and of course, lift and lower with it. I think though that the router you bought is a bit too big, but all depends on the Z, the fixture and the Z motor. In fact, you can use a smaller DC spindle also, but it won't be that efficient. There are plenty alternatives. Many people use ordinary routers, but they are very noisy, even compared to air cooled 3-phase brushless spindles.

The best alternative is a 3-phase brushless motor, but yes, it adds to the costs and complexity, even if you'd go for an air cooled one. Never the less, there are plenty alternatives. Personally, I started cheap and simple, used a DC motor initially, and it worked but was slow and weak (400W). Now I use a 1.5kW brushless air cooled 3-phase motor and if I have to replace that, the only difference will be that I will buy one with a square house and a larger collet, but will continue with the air cooled version.

[WoodKnot]

Thanks A Camera -


I think though that the router you bought is a bit too big

The Makita half inch router is not for the CNC - that's just for my general woodworking jobs.

I have four routers - a big Dewalt that is inverted in my router table, 2 Dewalts that are 1/4 inch, one is plunge only and one fixed and plunge my new 1/2 inch Makita is for using in my jigs with bigger cutters.


The best alternative is a 3-phase brushless motor, but yes, it adds to the costs and complexity, even if you'd go for an air cooled one. Never the less, there are plenty alternatives. Personally, I started cheap and simple, used a DC motor initially, and it worked but was slow and weak (400W). Now I use a 1.5kW brushless air cooled 3-phase motor and if I have to replace that, the only difference will be that I will buy one with a square house and a larger collet, but will continue with the air cooled version.

Which would you recommend then of the air cooled type - I think i saw one on Vevor that has the external housing for easy mounting on the Z axis

Does anyone make the dust shoes, i would be happy to buy one!

The one thing i do have is an excellent extraction system set up.

WoodKnot

[Fivetide]

I bought a mount for the cheap Chinese Makita clone and dust boot for it of ebay. they work fine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153957400012?hash=item23d8937dcc:g:jYwAAOSwsQJe42n c

[WoodKnot]

Just had a look on the specification for my little Dewalt D26200 - which is just really the motor unit.

It has Variable speed control from 16,000 to 27,000

So reading between the lines - fast enough for wood but not slow enough for plastic or metals.

Plastics may be something I am interested in, but generally find most polymers that I have used wrap themselves around cutters and are a pain of having to stop frequently to clean them up, especially mid cut.

But as they are a handheld router - aesthetically they do not look so good mounted on a CNC.

Those nice looking silver cylindrical ones however, look much more professional!!

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

I bought a mount for the cheap Chinese Makita clone and dust boot for it of ebay. they work fine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153957400012?hash=item23d8937dcc:g:jYwAAOSwsQJe42n c

Thanks Fivetide - that's not too bad at all -

WoodKnot

[A_Camera]

Thanks A Camera -



The Makita half inch router is not for the CNC - that's just for my general woodworking jobs.

I have four routers - a big Dewalt that is inverted in my router table, 2 Dewalts that are 1/4 inch, one is plunge only and one fixed and plunge my new 1/2 inch Makita is for using in my jigs with bigger cutters.



Which would you recommend then of the air cooled type - I think i saw one on Vevor that has the external housing for easy mounting on the Z axis

Does anyone make the dust shoes, i would be happy to buy one!

The one thing i do have is an excellent extraction system set up.

WoodKnot
I can't recommend any because I only have experience with a single one, the one I use, and that is old now. I think the important thing is that it's large enough for you, so if I would buy one for you, I would select a 2.2kW with at least ER16. Also the inverter is important and there I also only have experince with one.

[WoodKnot]

I can't recommend any because I only have experience with a single one, the one I use, and that is old now. I think the important thing is that it's large enough for you, so if I would buy one for you, I would select a 2.2kW with at least ER16. Also the inverter is important and there I also only have experince with one.

Hi A Camera -

Ok, just done a bit more research and starting to get my head around the ER collets and their sizes.

The spindles themselves look like a minefield!

WoodKnot.

[A_Camera]

Hi A Camera -

Ok, just done a bit more research and starting to get my head around the ER collets and their sizes.

The spindles themselves look like a minefield!

WoodKnot.

Beware, there are also different ER16 collets. I made a mistake and bought a number of collet nuts not knowing that there are two sizes, M22 and M19, and of course, the ones I ordered were M19. I was pretty surprised to see that they don't fit and that was when I realized my mistake. :glee: Oh well, now I have some extra in case I ever buy something which takes ER16 M19 nuts. Not as big mistake as yours was, so I can't really complain, but learn from my mistake, it's cheaper that way... :thumsup:

Regarding spindles, the other thing you should know is that not all of them has the protective earth connected, and in fact, not all have a connector which allows you to connect the PE. Beware, that if you go for the spindles on your own then it is of utmost importance that you connect the PE to the spindle, otherwise you are risking your life in case there is a short between the live motor connection and the motor housing. If the spindle has only three terminals you can't connect the earth, so in my opinion, you should not buy that motor. I suppose the motors Jazz is selling does have PE, but anyway, it is your responsibility to check and fix it. All type of electrical wiring is critical, but especially the high voltage part, where safety rules and regulations must be taken care of. Make sure nobody touching your machine is risking his/her life, so if you don't have the knowledge and don't know anyone who can lead you or do it for you then you should hire a professional or go for a low voltage solution. I don't know how you planned to work with the electrical parts, but you should start considering this part now, before you start spending more, and definitely before you get something like a 3-phase spindle + VFD + pump. Remember, safety first.

[A_Camera]

Just had a look on the specification for my little Dewalt D26200 - which is just really the motor unit.

It has Variable speed control from 16,000 to 27,000

So reading between the lines - fast enough for wood but not slow enough for plastic or metals.

Definitely too fast for some aluminium, but it's not just about RPM, it is also about the cutters you use, the diameter of them, the cutting speed (feed rate) and also the material. Not all aluminium is the same, and there are different plastics also.


Plastics may be something I am interested in, but generally find most polymers that I have used wrap themselves around cutters and are a pain of having to stop frequently to clean them up, especially mid cut.

As said, that may depend on many things, but most likely is the speed rate being too low, or the cutter is the wrong sort. I have had issues with some acrylic which melted on the cutter all the time, but eventually, I managed. It must however be difficult using a manual router because you don't really know the feed rate and can't really keep it constant. As soon as you slow down a bit too much, some plastics and aluminium melts and glues onto the cutter. Some times it helps if you spray with water, but I don't normally do that.

[WoodKnot]

Although at work we use 3-phase, sell equipment all based on 3-phase, it is something i have never used myself -

So in terms of electrical connections for 3 -phase, I would not know where to start.

When i converted the garage in my workshop I installed all the sockets (at least 15 doubles) and all the lighting.

But, as per the regs, got an electrician to fully test and complete the installation for full approval.

Maybe some more guidance from the guys on the forum that have gone down that route.

That does sound like the next big part of the project and one I will make sure that i have the full backing of prior to making any purchases.

I have purchased the power pack for the motors and the motors themselves - but that's it.

I want the frame built and completed now before i move on.

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Jazz

Have you got a link to see what I am looking at and what sort of cost please?

So i presume that the VFD is separate to the inverter -

Do i need a qualified electrician to install of of this? Considering that we can only add spur these days!

WoodKnot

You don't need a Water-cooled spindle but they are SOOOOOOOO much better than a standard router, with far less noise, stronger power, continuous duty cycle.

I sell them as a Kit only, this includes 2.2Kw ER20 Spindle, Huanyang VFD, 1 to 13mm Collet set, Spindle mount, water pump with the pipe. £265 + postage.
You will also need a shielded CY cable from VFD to Spindle which we can supply at £1mtr cut to length and will solder the VFD connector on free of charge.

You don't need any special wiring in the workshop and they will plug straight into a 13A supply if required. Occasionally, if you have a sensitive MCB in your Fuse box you may need to change the type from B to C MCB but this tends to happen mostly in very new properties and not very often.

[A_Camera]

Although at work we use 3-phase, sell equipment all based on 3-phase, it is something i have never used myself -

So in terms of electrical connections for 3 -phase, I would not know where to start.

When i converted the garage in my workshop I installed all the sockets (at least 15 doubles) and all the lighting.

But, as per the regs, got an electrician to fully test and complete the installation for full approval.

Maybe some more guidance from the guys on the forum that have gone down that route.

That does sound like the next big part of the project and one I will make sure that i have the full backing of prior to making any purchases.

I have purchased the power pack for the motors and the motors themselves - but that's it.

I want the frame built and completed now before i move on.

WoodKnot

The three phase you have at work and different industries is not the same. These spindle motors can not be connected to an ordinary 3-phase plug, you must use an inverter. However, to run the inverter you don't necessarily need three phase, my VFD uses one phase, but it internally converts to three. Regarding guidance on electrical installation, I prefer not to. All I can say is that it is my personal opinion that the offer you have from Jazz for all that is a bargain, even if it sounds expensive in your ears. You can probably buy the parts cheaper individually, but you save a lot of time and trouble if you buy everything soldered and ready to be plugged into a wall socket.

BUT... before you say yes to the offer from Jazz, you MUST have your design ready, not just assume that everything fits together and works well. I mean, the whole machine MUST be ready for assembly, at least on paper, because that spindle is heavy, so you can't use small and weak steppers. You have already made an expensive mistake, don't continue the same route. I am sure that the delivered good from Jazz would work, but can your gantry handle everything? Have you decided for the type of design? Have you decided for the CNC software and the interface to your PC? Will it be Linux or Windows driven? Have you made any considerations of the electronics? Can you design and install everything, connect and solder all the wires and all that's needed to do? How large is the Z and what will be the Z clearance from the table top up? There are so many things to think about, so if you have not done it already, it is time to lift a pen and take notes in a booklet called "My CNC Design" or something similar.

[JAZZCNC]

1. The "need" for the water cooled version is really exaggerated on some sites. While when you cut air it is more quiet than air cooled motors, but that benefit is immediately erased as soon as you start cutting because the cutting noise is taking over. Once you use the spindle for real cutting, the noise benefits are gone.

Don't agree with this, unlike you I have used both, and 100% a water-cooled spindle is quieter when cutting than an air-cooled spindle simply because you don't hear the fan and air turbulence. It's a little like comparing an Electric car to a combustion-engined car and saying when the wheels are turning they both make the same noise because of the tyres on the road.!!

Then you have the duty cycle to consider, an Air-cooled spindle as a limited amount of time it can be run before it needs to cool down, WC doesn't have any duty cycle and can be run continuously for days if required.

Until you have used a WC spindle you will never fully appreciate just how good they are.



Regarding spindles, the other thing you should know is that not all of them has the protective earth connected, and in fact, not all have a connector which allows you to connect the PE. Beware, that if you go for the spindles on your own then it is of utmost importance that you connect the PE to the spindle, otherwise you are risking your life in case there is a short between the live motor connection and the motor housing. If the spindle has only three terminals you can't connect the earth, so in my opinion, you should not buy that motor. I suppose the motors Jazz is selling does have PE, but anyway, it is your responsibility to check and fix it.

Actually, very few of these spindles have a PE inside the connector, even the ones with 4 pins are not connected inside the housing. However, if the machine is wired correctly regards grounds on the Chassis and gantry then it's not a problem as any short circuit will be caught.

But I agree if you want extra peace of mind buy a 4 Pin type and connect inside the spindle.

[WoodKnot]

You don't need a Water-cooled spindle but they are SOOOOOOOO much better than a standard router, with far less noise, stronger power, continuous duty cycle.

I sell them as a Kit only, this includes 2.2Kw ER20 Spindle, Huanyang VFD, 1 to 13mm Collet set, Spindle mount, water pump with the pipe. £265 + postage.
You will also need a shielded CY cable from VFD to Spindle which we can supply at £1mtr cut to length and will solder the VFD connector on free of charge.

You don't need any special wiring in the workshop and they will plug straight into a 13A supply if required. Occasionally, if you have a sensitive MCB in your Fuse box you may need to change the type from B to C MCB but this tends to happen mostly in very new properties and not very often.

Good evening Jazz

Sounds like a great deal to me!

Something that A Camera is unaware of, is of course the much needed and much appreciated help that you are providing me.

I would like to thank you for this help, otherwise I think I would have either packed in the project, or it would have taken me a year to build..

So based on YOUR design and I must state, some of the materials that you have been forced to work with, will my set up accept your spindle pack?

Thank you again

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

The three phase you have at work and different industries is not the same. These spindle motors can not be connected to an ordinary 3-phase plug, you must use an inverter. However, to run the inverter you don't necessarily need three phase, my VFD uses one phase, but it internally converts to three. Regarding guidance on electrical installation, I prefer not to. All I can say is that it is my personal opinion that the offer you have from Jazz for all that is a bargain, even if it sounds expensive in your ears. You can probably buy the parts cheaper individually, but you save a lot of time and trouble if you buy everything soldered and ready to be plugged into a wall socket.

BUT... before you say yes to the offer from Jazz, you MUST have your design ready, not just assume that everything fits together and works well. I mean, the whole machine MUST be ready for assembly, at least on paper, because that spindle is heavy, so you can't use small and weak steppers. You have already made an expensive mistake, don't continue the same route. I am sure that the delivered good from Jazz would work, but can your gantry handle everything? Have you decided for the type of design? Have you decided for the CNC software and the interface to your PC? Will it be Linux or Windows driven? Have you made any considerations of the electronics? Can you design and install everything, connect and solder all the wires and all that's needed to do? How large is the Z and what will be the Z clearance from the table top up? There are so many things to think about, so if you have not done it already, it is time to lift a pen and take notes in a booklet called "My CNC Design" or something similar.

Sorry A Camera, I have got inside help ��

[JAZZCNC]

So based on YOUR design and I must state, some of the materials that you have been forced to work with, will my set up accept your spindle pack?

The C beam and small-sized profile is a weak link I must admit and it's testing me trying to find what I consider a suitable workaround using these profiles and the length of ball-screws etc.

I haven't even looked at the gantry and Z-axis side of things yet but I will give it a good look over and see how we can stiffen it up if needed.

I can see this turning into a Frankenstein WorkBee, Oznest, or whatever they are called...:loyal:

[WoodKnot]

The C beam and small-sized profile is a weak link I must admit and it's testing me trying to find what I consider a suitable workaround using these profiles and the length of ball-screws etc.

I haven't even looked at the gantry and Z-axis side of things yet but I will give it a good look over and see how we can stiffen it up if needed.

I can see this turning into a Frankenstein WorkBee, Oznest, or whatever they are called...:loyal:

WoodKnot's Frankenstein CNC - I like that!!

Really Jazz - it'll be alright -

Let it be! - you are making the plates and lets leave it at that - it will be what it will be.

The Z Axis is very short and on the back of the X axis there is another piece of 4020 that is fastened to the back to run the cable track on.

So, lets get the plates on and give it a go - you maybe surprised - it maybe ok?

I did say maybe!

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

The three phase you have at work and different industries is not the same. These spindle motors can not be connected to an ordinary 3-phase plug, you must use an inverter. However, to run the inverter you don't necessarily need three phase, my VFD uses one phase, but it internally converts to three. Regarding guidance on electrical installation, I prefer not to. All I can say is that it is my personal opinion that the offer you have from Jazz for all that is a bargain, even if it sounds expensive in your ears. You can probably buy the parts cheaper individually, but you save a lot of time and trouble if you buy everything soldered and ready to be plugged into a wall socket.

BUT... before you say yes to the offer from Jazz, you MUST have your design ready, not just assume that everything fits together and works well. I mean, the whole machine MUST be ready for assembly, at least on paper, because that spindle is heavy, so you can't use small and weak steppers. You have already made an expensive mistake, don't continue the same route. I am sure that the delivered good from Jazz would work, but can your gantry handle everything? Have you decided for the type of design? Have you decided for the CNC software and the interface to your PC? Will it be Linux or Windows driven? Have you made any considerations of the electronics? Can you design and install everything, connect and solder all the wires and all that's needed to do? How large is the Z and what will be the Z clearance from the table top up? There are so many things to think about, so if you have not done it already, it is time to lift a pen and take notes in a booklet called "My CNC Design" or something similar.

Hi A Camera -

I am Microsoft and an Android fan - so Windows - software will be Easel - Controller is BLACKBOX, no soldering (although i have purchased a kit)

Motors are Nema 23's 285oz

Should be alright :adoration:

[A_Camera]

Something that A Camera is unaware of, is of course the much needed and much appreciated help that you are providing me.

No, I was NOT unaware of that at all, but you did not sound sure about wanting Jazz to build it for you. I think that's a good idea.

[JAZZCNC]

WoodKnot's Frankenstein CNC - I like that!!

Really Jazz - it'll be alright -

Let it be! - you are making the plates and lets leave it at that - it will be what it will be.

The Z Axis is very short and on the back of the X axis there is another piece of 4020 that is fastened to the back to run the cable track on.

So, lets get the plates on and give it a go - you maybe surprised - it maybe ok?

I did say maybe!

WoodKnot

Woodknot, I don't think you realize just what a mess this miss-match of parts puts the machine design in or the complications they cause.?

Because the size of the rails and ball-screws were never designed to fit on this frame and profile style then things have to be moved into positions that are not ideal or good.
For instance, the only way to fit the ball-screws is to now place them outwards of the gantry sides, this then leaves nothing to fasten the BK bearings onto, so we have to extend the endplates so brackets can be made which extend off at 90 degrees for the BK bearings to fasten onto.

This while not being an ideal location having the screws hanging so far off to the side can easily be done in terms of making extended plates, however, the complications are how do we allow for alignment of the screw in both horizontal and vertical alignments and the fastening of the ball-nut mount on the gantry side.? Slots in the end plates and BK plate are the answer to allow adjustment.

However, there's another issue that now the SFU mount is on the outside of the gantry which puts the SFU mounting bolts on the inside of the gantry which cannot be accessed when fastened to the linear bearings. We can't fasten the SFU bearing onto the gantry side before fitting it onto bearings because we need to align it to the ball screw.!

These are just the issues with the Y-axis and I haven't even looked at the X or Z axis but again this mismatch of parts will place similar design complications.

So maybe you can see I'm not talking about trying to design you a completely new machine that is super strong, the struggle is just making things fit together in a fashion that makes assembly possible and doesn't waste my time or yours making plates that don't work or fit.!

I know you think it's simpler than it looks but honestly it's not, however, as you have found it's very easy to F-UP which I don't intend to do.! So please say now if you want me to continue or not because I haven't got time to waste making plates which don't work.!

See pics to get some idea of the issues.

301933019430195

[WoodKnot]

Woodknot, I don't think you realize just what a mess this miss-match of parts puts the machine design in or the complications they cause.?

Because the size of the rails and ball-screws were never designed to fit on this frame and profile style then things have to be moved into positions that are not ideal or good.
For instance, the only way to fit the ball-screws is to now place them outwards of the gantry sides, this then leaves nothing to fasten the BK bearings onto, so we have to extend the endplates so brackets can be made which extend off at 90 degrees for the BK bearings to fasten onto.

This while not being an ideal location having the screws hanging so far off to the side can easily be done in terms of making extended plates, however, the complications are how do we allow for alignment of the screw in both horizontal and vertical alignments and the fastening of the ball-nut mount on the gantry side.? Slots in the end plates and BK plate are the answer to allow adjustment.

However, there's another issue that now the SFU mount is on the outside of the gantry which puts the SFU mounting bolts on the inside of the gantry which cannot be accessed when fastened to the linear bearings. We can't fasten the SFU bearing onto the gantry side before fitting it onto bearings because we need to align it to the ball screw.!

These are just the issues with the Y-axis and I haven't even looked at the X or Z axis but again this mismatch of parts will place similar design complications.

So maybe you can see I'm not talking about trying to design you a completely new machine that is super strong, the struggle is just making things fit together in a fashion that makes assembly possible and doesn't waste my time or yours making plates that don't work or fit.!

I know you think it's simpler than it looks but honestly it's not, however, as you have found it's very easy to F-UP which I don't intend to do.! So please say now if you want me to continue or not because I haven't got time to waste making plates which don't work.!

See pics to get some idea of the issues.

301933019430195

Good evening Jazz

OK, so my ballscrews will not fit inside anyway, unless I use a different style of nut?

The ballscrews are too short for the profiles, so overall a complete mess.

Is there an alternative nut and if I got screws that are longer than the profiles, could the bearings be seated in the plates?

Your thoughts please?

Thanks

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Good evening Jazz

OK, so my ballscrews will not fit inside anyway, unless I use a different style of nut?

The ballscrews are too short for the profiles, so overall a complete mess.

Is there an alternative nut and if I got screws that are longer than the profiles, could the bearings be seated in the plates?

Your thoughts please?

The choices are limited with what you have now because as I say these parts were never designed to fit together as you planned. There is no nut you can use that will fit into the space you have in that C beam profile and the location of the rails/bearings in the position you intended. (see end shot)
Even moving the rails onto the top and side orientation doesn't help much because of the type of profile.

In my opinion, your only choice is to go with something like I have shown and live with any compromises or start again with a different profile and design.!

30196

Let me know what your thinking and I will continue with the other axis, because like I say it's not just the Y-axis which will give problems.

[WoodKnot]

Giood morning Jazz

Please don't commit any more time to it please.

I need a bit of time now to consider my options.

Let me know what I owe you for your time please

Thanks

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Giood morning Jazz

Please don't commit any more time to it please.

I need a bit of time now to consider my options.

Let me know what I owe you for your time please

Thanks

WoodKnot

Hi,

Don't owe me anything and I would be more than happy to continue if you wanted, however, my honest opinion would be to start again with new profiles like 45x90 and re-use the rails and bearings rather than trying to make everything fit those profiles.

Just let me know if you want to proceed further.

Lastly, to make you aware the motors and electrics you have bought are also less than ideal so at some point, if you continue, expect to be upgrading these or if want to do it right from the start sell them and buy decent stuff.

[WoodKnot]

Hi,

Don't owe me anything and I would be more than happy to continue if you wanted, however, my honest opinion would be to start again with new profiles like 45x90 and re-use the rails and bearings rather than trying to make everything fit those profiles.

Just let me know if you want to proceed further.

Lastly, to make you aware the motors and electrics you have bought are also less than ideal so at some point, if you continue, expect to be upgrading these or if want to do it right from the start sell them and buy decent stuff.

Yes, thanks Jazz

Big decision time now - not sure at the moment which way to go................

As in, try to sell what does not work (most of it) and start from scratch, but be prepared to probably lose at least 30%

Or ditch the whole project and start again at some other point in time?

The plates that you have come up with are great, but agree that they 'don't look right' due to my mismatch of purchases.

Such is life

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Good evening Jazz

Posted and deleted, stupid idea!

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Ok, let's start again, bad idea?
30239
30240

So, by using 3 of the 2040 profiles to create the required space?

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

Ok, let's start again, bad idea?
30237
30238
So, by using 3 of the 2040 profiles to create the required space?

WoodKnot

Can't see them.?

[WoodKnot]

Can't see them.?

They are there now, so one fits in the CBeam then one either side of the beam, or could put 2 at the bottom?

Just trying to make what I have work?

Thanks

WoodKnot

[WoodKnot]

Hi All,

Been having a go with Sketchup 2017 - seems very intuitive and easy to use, far easier than FreeCad -

But with everything, there maybe downsides?

Your thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks

WoodKnot

[JAZZCNC]

They are there now, so one fits in the CBeam then one either side of the beam, or could put 2 at the bottom?

Just trying to make what I have work?

Thanks

WoodKnot

Sorry not got back to you sooner Woodknot, I have just received the shipment of components for the next batch of Routers so we are full steam ahead building machines and time is scarce.

Don't think your plan will work very well or be any easier. I did have a little play around again and think I may have come up with a better way to do this and still use what you have.

Can you post a list of all the profiles you have and when I get time I'll try and finish off my idea for you to look at?

[WoodKnot]

Good evening Jazz

Good that you are very busy!

3 x C Beam 4080 all 1000mm

5 x 2040 all 1000mm
1 x 4080 at 300mm

I can always get more if it helps :adoration:

Thanks

WoodKnot