New member intro with spindle questions!

[Dave33]

Hi everyone I'm Dave from South Wales.

I'm a newbie to all this DIY CNC and have really enjoyed reading some great topics on the forum.
So thank you for sharing all this information.

I'm looking to get a water cooled spindle for my CNC router, I have a trim router at the moment so looking to keep the weight down so won't be looking at the more common from what iv seen 2.2kw etc.

I'm guessing most of these spindles don't make what the claimed specs are ?

For what I do I think I might be ok with a 0.8kw but leaning towards the 1.5kw to be in the same side, my mkita rt0700 I believe is fine powder wise but I would like to control the spindle with mcode.

I really don't enjoy the noise at the moment which is very unsociable 😔

After reading some great topics I have decided on the vfd below. Hopefully iv selected a decent one but any input would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7A-Huanyang-1-5kw-220V-Drive-Inverter-VFD-Variable-CE-Certificate-Frequency-2HP-/143345133560?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

I have seen there are loads of options with spindles and price but is there a better supplier I should go with ?

I'm guessing it's just hit or miss with the quality of the balltrack honing and Im not sure I believe they are using imported German bearings as iv read on some of the adverts. They certainly won't be Gmn quality 😉

Spindles iv looked at and don't really know what to do with are below.
I'm hopeful the experience on here could point me in the right direction please 😊


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VEVOR-Water-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-CNC-Router-Milling-Machine-High-Efficiency-/284328552157?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-1-5KW-220V-65MM-CNC-Water-Cooling-Engraving-machine-spindle-motor-/313579093405?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/800W-0-8KW-Waterproof-Water-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-65MM-CNC-Metal-Engraving-/274850906753?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=724-127637-2357-0

What do all you guys think ?

[JAZZCNC]

The first thing you should know and determine is that these spindles are quite heavy so you need to know your Z-axis can handle the weight.?

Next, most of these smaller KW 65mm spindles use ER11 collets which limit you to about a 7mm shank size, can you live with that, or do you need large tool sizes.? If so you will be better with the larger 2.2Kw versions which use ER20 provided the z-axis can handle the weight. ER20 will allow collets from 1 to 13mm.

You can get some of the 80mm 1.5Kw spindles with ER16 collets which have a range of 1 to 9mm but these weigh only slightly less than the 2.2Kw and cost only slightly less so are not worth the difference IMO.

Finally, does your controller/breakout board have a provision to control the spindle speed and on/off.?
If not then you can't use M codes to control the speed, you can use an Output if you have one spare to control a relay which in turn can be used for On/Off but if your controller/breakout board doesn't have 0-10v analog or PWM speed controller then you won't be able to control the RPM from software. You could use a serial/Modbus communication depending on the control software but that requires a serial to Modbus converter and software plug-in plus a little knowledge on how to set it up in the VFD/software.

Regards buying then I can't point you to a supplier of the smaller spindles but I can supply the Huanyang 2.2Kw WC spindle and VFD which we fit on the machines we build.
I have fit literally 100's of these so you can rest assured they are reliable and accurate otherwise I wouldn't use them.

These come as a set, both the 2.2Kw spindle and VFD are made by Huanyang, the set includes a 1 to 13mm collet set, 80mm spindle mount with bolts, water pump, and pipes. The only thing required is a container of water for the pump. £275 + postage.
I would also include my phone number for support and help with wiring, VFD settings, etc if needed.

[Dave33]

Thank you for the reply Jazz,

my main guiding factors have been that my current spindle is around 3kgs so I wanted to keep the weight down to a similar weight as I have seen the bigger spindles are pretty heavy.

how heavy are the spindles you have ?

also never really felt that my current spindle is under powered, like you said it would be nice to run bigger tooling but not a must. if any thing id rather have a lower speed range as I'm not used to all this high speed, it scares me a little tbh

yes I'm pretty confident that my board can control the spindle, I might need some help with the wiring but I have a mate who is a spark who works in the automotive industry so I hope he can help me out.
I will try and do most of this myself as I enjoy the learning so if any one has any good examples of control circuit that would be amazing
I believe my board is a Reprap duet 2 so I think I will need a PWM speed controller and some relays, I also want to E-stop the system while I'm at it.

[cropwell]

I bought a SuperPID speed controller and didn't fit it to control my Kress router as I had to modify the router to take out the inboard speed controller and fit the optical rpm feedback.
I finally got to do it when the first set of brushes went.

I wish I had done it sooner.

Speed is now controlled by Mach3 via PWM and the Kress runs much quieter. Also the lower speeds (still at full power) make better cuts.

http://www.vhipe.com/product-private/SuperPID-Home.htm

[JAZZCNC]

Thank you for the reply Jazz,

my main guiding factors have been that my current spindle is around 3kgs so I wanted to keep the weight down to a similar weight as I have seen the bigger spindles are pretty heavy.

how heavy are the spindles you have ?

I would have to weigh them but would estimate around 5Kg with a spindle mount.

[cropwell]

Good guess Jazzy, 5.3Kg without the mount. I couldn't get a mount to weigh as it is on my mezzanine storage area and my legs are bad at the moment.

[routercnc]

What CNC machine do you currently have? Do you have pictures if home made, or was it a commercial product you bought?

A few more kg on the spindle is not a problem for most DIY machines, and in fact helps with cut quality. Also, unless the stepper motor is very small (maybe off a 3D printer) the leadscrew gives so much mechanical advantage that it will usually lift it up no problem.

Also, what do you want to machine with it ? This will all help with spindle recommendations.

[Dave33]

Thanks again for all the replies everyone ��

The CNC I have is a workbee with aluminium extrusion, it came as a kit form and I built it up.
It's not the most rigid of machines that's why I am cautious about getting such a heavy spindle.

Am I correct in thinking a 2.2kw is close to 3hp ?

Materials I have been working with so far have been wood, mild steel and nylon.
I do have some plans to have a go at some carbon fibre and aluminium in the future.

Maybe I should be looking to upgrade other parts of the machine before I get a spindle like the z axis in preparation for a 5kg spindle.

[cropwell]

Am I correct in thinking a 2.2kw is close to 3hp ?



I think 1hp equates to 770 watts. So roughly speaking - yes.

[JAZZCNC]

The CNC I have is a workbee with aluminium extrusion, it came as a kit form and I built it up.
It's not the most rigid of machines that's why I am cautious about getting such a heavy spindle.

In that case, I wouldn't go with the 2.2Kw without beefing up the Z-axis first, it just wouldn't handle the cutting forces well enough and end up breaking tools from vibrations or getting worse quality finishes.

[A_Camera]

If you go for water cooled you must also add the weight of the cooling water circulating in the system, so a 2.2kW water cooled motor + motor holder + cooling liquid is probably too much for you. Also, don't underestimate the weight of cables, especially if you are going to use good quality shielded cables.

In my opinion, you should go for a 1.5kW air cooled with at least ER16, unless you are absolutely sure ER11 is enough for you. Those motors are lighter, and noise wise you can't compare them with a Kress or your Makita router. These motors are quiet (sort of), even at 24k rpm. Anyway, while water cooled are surely more quiet, the cutting noise will take over and bring it to the same or similar level when used for real work.

If you want to listen to my motor you can do that in this video.


https://youtu.be/-_MA-1bK9Z8

Note that in the video, the VFD fan noise is almost always louder, and also that I made a mistake, had the microphone gain too high during the recording. So in reality, the spindle (when cutting air) is surprisingly quiet, compared to many other machines, like an angle grinder or a Dremel, and definitely all the routers I have ever heard.

It is an air cooled, 65mm diameter with ER11, and the only thing I'd change if I had to start over is that I'd buy a motor with a square house and an ER16. I'd still use air cooled.

[Dave33]

If you go for water cooled you must also add the weight of the cooling water circulating in the system, so a 2.2kW water cooled motor + motor holder + cooling liquid is probably too much for you. Also, don't underestimate the weight of cables, especially if you are going to use good quality shielded cables.

In my opinion, you should go for a 1.5kW air cooled with at least ER16, unless you are absolutely sure ER11 is enough for you. Those motors are lighter, and noise wise you can't compare them with a Kress or your Makita router. These motors are quiet (sort of), even at 24k rpm. Anyway, while water cooled are surely more quiet, the cutting noise will take over and bring it to the same or similar level when used for real work.

If you want to listen to my motor you can do that in this video.


https://youtu.be/-_MA-1bK9Z8

Note that in the video, the VFD fan noise is almost always louder, and also that I made a mistake, had the microphone gain too high during the recording. So in reality, the spindle (when cutting air) is surprisingly quiet, compared to many other machines, like an angle grinder or a Dremel, and definitely all the routers I have ever heard.

It is an air cooled, 65mm diameter with ER11, and the only thing I'd change if I had to start over is that I'd buy a motor with a square house and an ER16. I'd still use air cooled.

I was just about to order some aluminium and a set of linear rails to beef up my axis to take a beast of a 5kg water spindle, but I must admit your setup looks beautiful.

Just one question does the output of cooling air from the bottom of the spindle blow chips around the workshop or do you have an extraction system that can keep up with the draft ?

[A_Camera]

I was just about to order some aluminium and a set of linear rails to beef up my axis to take a beast of a 5kg water spindle, but I must admit your setup looks beautiful.

Just one question does the output of cooling air from the bottom of the spindle blow chips around the workshop or do you have an extraction system that can keep up with the draft ?

Beefing up is always good. The more rigidity the better. But of course, it means more mass to move around...

I guess your intended 2.2kW spindle will be more like: 5kg spindle + 1.5 kg motor holder + about 1 kg water + cabling... with an air cooled 1.5kW you should save about 3 kg (less weight for the motor and no water).

Regarding the much discussed dust, I don't think it's an issue at all, but yes, I have a vacuum cleaner attachment so when I feel I need dust extraction (like PCB milling) or want to keep everything neat then I use it. I have my CNC in an ordinary room with parquet floor and which serves me as a hobby room / home office / electronic development centre, not in a workshop but dust is not a problem. I'd worry more about leakage than the dust. I mostly mill aluminium, plastics and PCB, never really any wood, but even if you mill wood, it is not the actual fan blowing which might cause dust, but the cutter spinning at high speed. Never the less, dust shoe is a must according to me, regardless if you use air or water cooled spindle. Milling makes a lot of mess, and even if I used mine in a proper workshop I'd prefer using a dust shoe and the sides covered. Anyway, I have been using this spindle for over five years and I can not see that there would be any advantage in using water cooled spindle so, I will definitely never buy one. Installing a water cooling system is also more complicated than leaving it out, and I am not keen in leading water through the same cable chain I am leading live electrical wires through. Electricity and water don't mix well... but I know many people will claim that if you know what you do then there are no risks.

...that said, I think you should carefully consider the choice you are making. My solution and needs may not fit your requirements. If you plan running the spindle H24/7 then water cooled should be the best. Also, not all motors are the same, and maybe the inverter plays a role also when it comes to how hot the motor gets or how efficient it runs. Of course, what you mill and how fast you spin the spindle also counts. The longest I run mine was about 3 hours non-stop, and the slowest I think was 4500 rpm for drilling in aluminium.

[JAZZCNC]

I guess your intended 2.2kW spindle will be more like: 5kg spindle + 1.5 kg motor holder + about 1 kg water + cabling... with an air cooled 1.5kW you should save about 3 kg (less weight for the motor and no water).

I could get into this deeper and tell you why you are wrong but I won't other than to say the water in the spindle is minimal, less than a cup full, so water weight isn't an issue.
The cooling comes from continuous recirculation of the water and provided the water container is large enough the spindle doesn't need a large volume of water around it.

Also, the 1.5Kw WC spindles are around 3Kg, not 5kg which is roughly the same weight as the Air-cooled. Cabling doesn't come into it because the Air-cooled still needs cable.

[A_Camera]

I could get into this deeper and tell you why you are wrong but I won't other than to say the water in the spindle is minimal, less than a cup full, so water weight isn't an issue.
The cooling comes from continuous recirculation of the water and provided the water container is large enough the spindle doesn't need a large volume of water around it.

Also, the 1.5Kw WC spindles are around 3Kg, not 5kg which is roughly the same weight as the Air-cooled. Cabling doesn't come into it because the Air-cooled still needs cable.

I expected there should be more water, at least around one litre, but if you say no, then I believe you. Yes, a 1.5kW water cooled and a 1.5kW air cooled has the same weight, but the discussion earlier was about a 2.2kW spindle, which is around 5kg.

You are right that the cable and the motor holder is the same, which is why I left that out of my "weight saving calculation" but my point with that was that when he calculates the new total weight he can't just look at the weight of the spindle, he must think about the rest also. While the cable is the same in all cases and makes no difference if it is for water or air cooled, it adds some extra to the weight which must be handled. But sure, if there is only a cup of water then it makes no difference for the total weight.