Denford cyclone conversion

[depronman]

Just got my hands on a cyclone lathe from 1998
No electronics with machine except the transformer and a pair of Parker Digiplan BT30 drivers and the servos on the machine

I’m looking to run from single phase and have a 4kw vfd for the main spindle motor
Two questions really

1 - are the servos usable in that they are +/-10volts and not step/direction. If so what sort of motion controller do I need?

2 - the 8 position ATC is a Diplomatic BD80. 8/10-110/50. What do I need to control that ?

I’m using linuxcnc on my mill and smaller lathe and am happy with it so if that can be part of the solution then great. I really want to avoid mach3 as it’s so hold a buggy and mach4 as next to no support

The cyclone appears to have done next to no work slides ways are like new as are the ball screws
It was sat in a garage for some years and as some surface rust, which is nearly all now removed and I am in the process of stripping off the tinwork to gain proper access to the servos, main spindle motor, spindle tachometer, limit switches etc

Suggestions please folks

If the servos and drivers are junk then suggestions please for their replacements, close loop steppers or modern servos and if so what sizes / powers etc

I want to end up with an accurate machine, but equally I don’t want to spend the earth on it and as such I will trade a bit of speed. The slides are fairly short so massively fast rapids is not a great concern

Cheers. Paul


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[m_c]

If you were to stay with the analog servos, you'd need something like CS-Labs CSMIO/IP-A, Dynomotion K-flop with Kanalog, or there are Mesa boards that can handle it for LinuxCNC.

Have you got a photo of the turret?
I thought Denford only fitted either their own turret, or Barafuldi turrets.


Personally, I'd fit modern servos with step/dir control if I was to retrofit another cyclone.
Although I fitted new servos to mine (I opted for a 400W on the X, and 700W on the Z), I still ran them in Analog mode, as I wanted to use a Dynomotion Kanalog board for the extra IO it gave (their Konnect expansion board only came out after I'd done my retrofit).

For what I mostly turn now, I'd also consider a standalone controller. However I did like the the Mach3 turning wizards for quick programming when I first got my Cyclone running. Even after I moved to running KMotionCNC, I still kept a licensed copy of Mach3 on the computer for generating code, as it was handy for occasional simple parts, instead of dragging a laptop out to the workshop.

[depronman]

If you were to stay with the analog servos, you'd need something like CS-Labs CSMIO/IP-A, Dynomotion K-flop with Kanalog, or there are Mesa boards that can handle it for LinuxCNC.

Have you got a photo of the turret?
I thought Denford only fitted either their own turret, or Barafuldi turrets.


Personally, I'd fit modern servos with step/dir control if I was to retrofit another cyclone.
Although I fitted new servos to mine (I opted for a 400W on the X, and 700W on the Z), I still ran them in Analog mode, as I wanted to use a Dynomotion Kanalog board for the extra IO it gave (their Konnect expansion board only came out after I'd done my retrofit).

For what I mostly turn now, I'd also consider a standalone controller. However I did like the the Mach3 turning wizards for quick programming when I first got my Cyclone running. Even after I moved to running KMotionCNC, I still kept a licensed copy of Mach3 on the computer for generating code, as it was handy for occasional simple parts, instead of dragging a laptop out to the workshop.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211102/38a059783eadd4970e3aee24eb7a6af0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211102/bf361eb95487e30f773e2fca03abf21e.jpg
I’ve stripped the cyclone down a little more tonight and removed the panel work so everything is now very accessible [emoji16]
I removed the Z servo and cables and connected to the Parker Digiplan BT30 driver
All powered up and worked perfectly. Connect the +/-10volts together and motor is stationary then connect a 3 volt dc source and motor spins one way reverse the polarity and the motor spins in the opposite direction. Increase the voltage and motor speed increases
Fairly basic test but appears that the servos and drivers are in good working order

I might be missing the obvious here -
With step/direction I understand how that works in that the controllers wants to move Z 10mm it knows how many steps to move and in which direction to achieve the 10mm movement
With the +/-10volts I understand the polarity part for direction control but how does the controller instruct the servo to move 10mm. I get the speed of movement is controlled by the voltage applied (more volts = greater speed) but how does the controller know when the 10mm have been achieved?

I have asked dynomotion to confirm that their kflop and kanalogue will work with the servos and drivers that I have and also that the ATC can be controlled but I’m awaiting their reply
Are there any gotchas that I need to be aware of with the dynomotion kit ?

Cheers
Paul


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[m_c]

Analogue controllers rely on the servo encoder to know how far things have moved (I'm assuming you'll have encoders fitted given your machines age, but there is a possibility of having resolvers fitted, which are a nightmare to use with any modern controller).
The controller is continually adjusting the analogue output to maintain position based on the encoder position.

Provided your servos have encoders fitted (there should be another multicore cable on the rear of the servo), a KFlop and Kanalog will work.
The KMotionCNC software is pretty basic, but it does the job.
The biggest issue you might have with a KFlop, is most of the config and any custom coding is done using C programs. It does mean you need to understand at least the basics of C, but it also means it can be programmed to do some quite advanced controlling.

I did have a quick search of the Denford forums last night after posting, and see Duplomatic turrets appear to have been used on newer machines. I think the biggest issue you'll have with the turret, is figuring out how to control it. I couldn't see anything.
I've just done another search, and found this document on the linux cnc forum - https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/1901/EM-UCNs50-1412-en.pdf which seems to suggest Duplomatic supply their own control board, so I'm going to guess they don't publish exactly how the turret operates. And if you don't have that controller, you could have a major problem.
I'd start by asking on the Denford forums, and emailing Duplomatic (https://www.duplomaticautomation.com/), to try and find out about the turret, as without a functioning turret, a Cyclone isn't much use.

[depronman]

Analogue controllers rely on the servo encoder to know how far things have moved (I'm assuming you'll have encoders fitted given your machines age, but there is a possibility of having resolvers fitted, which are a nightmare to use with any modern controller).
The controller is continually adjusting the analogue output to maintain position based on the encoder position.

Provided your servos have encoders fitted (there should be another multicore cable on the rear of the servo), a KFlop and Kanalog will work.
The KMotionCNC software is pretty basic, but it does the job.
The biggest issue you might have with a KFlop, is most of the config and any custom coding is done using C programs. It does mean you need to understand at least the basics of C, but it also means it can be programmed to do some quite advanced controlling.

I did have a quick search of the Denford forums last night after posting, and see Duplomatic turrets appear to have been used on newer machines. I think the biggest issue you'll have with the turret, is figuring out how to control it. I couldn't see anything.
I've just done another search, and found this document on the linux cnc forum - https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/1901/EM-UCNs50-1412-en.pdf which seems to suggest Duplomatic supply their own control board, so I'm going to guess they don't publish exactly how the turret operates. And if you don't have that controller, you could have a major problem.
I'd start by asking on the Denford forums, and emailing Duplomatic (https://www.duplomaticautomation.com/), to try and find out about the turret, as without a functioning turret, a Cyclone isn't much use.

Decided to go with close loop steppers 4nm ones from stepper online they arrived the day before I came on holiday so only rigged them up on the bench but they appear to be fast and powerful

I got the spindle running on a 4kw inverter and it seems fine
The turret is starting to be a concern as I don’t have the controller card for it and duplomatic have not responded to emails
Do you think it is something that could be done with an arduino? From what I have read the outputs from the four sensors are 24v so some form of voltage shifter would be needed to get to 0 to 5 volts as needed by the arduino

There is a ucn controller card on eBay in America but it is over £300 shipped to the uk then likely plus bay and import tax so not particularly the way I would want to go

Paul


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[Chaz]

Decided to go with close loop steppers 4nm ones from stepper online they arrived the day before I came on holiday so only rigged them up on the bench but they appear to be fast and powerful

I got the spindle running on a 4kw inverter and it seems fine
The turret is starting to be a concern as I don’t have the controller card for it and duplomatic have not responded to emails
Do you think it is something that could be done with an arduino? From what I have read the outputs from the four sensors are 24v so some form of voltage shifter would be needed to get to 0 to 5 volts as needed by the arduino

There is a ucn controller card on eBay in America but it is over £300 shipped to the uk then likely plus bay and import tax so not particularly the way I would want to go

Paul


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I did some custom code for a Duplomatic on Arduino - heres a vid of it on a 'bench' - the connectors simulate what the duplomatic would be doing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pReSONQNLQo

Personally, if you didnt have the closed loop steppers, Id be doing servos. I dont think Ill ever do another retrofit without servos in future.

[depronman]

Hi Chaz
Thank for the reply
I’ve just watched the video but am outside in bright sunshine so not the best to view detail
Would you be willing to share the arduino sketch and the list of components and wiring etc

I assume that it worked fine in practice controlling the turret
What did you use as the control software for the machine? I looking to use linuxcnc
How many inputs and outputs does the bob need to feed into / out of the arduino ?

Cheers. Paul


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[Chaz]

Ill have to find it, let me see what I still have.

Same for the components. It was basically just some relays and some opto couplers from memory.

I never deployed it in the end, mainly as the machine I was trying to retrofit the turret on (Harrison M300) struggled to move the weight of the turret, so I abandoned the idea.

I was using Centroid Acorn and then let the Arduino do the 'change logic'.

[depronman]

What ever you can find would be so much appreciated. Fingers crossed

Paul


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[Chaz]

I think this was the original code and in the end more complicated than what was needed. Ill see what else I can find.

#define TRUE 1
#define FALSE 0
#define TURRET_MOVE_PIN 2
#define STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN 3
#define INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN 4 // Double-check this
#define LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN 5 // and this one

#define INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN 23
#define TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN 24
#define TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN 25
#define TURN_OFF_THE_TURRET_MOVE_COMMAND_PIN 26

// State variables
int running_cycle = FALSE;
int stopping_cycle = FALSE;
int moving_clockwise = FALSE;
int moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;

// signals evaluated on each loop
int strobe_signal = FALSE; //Start with Strobe Signal off
int index_control_switch = FALSE; //Start with ICS off
int lock_control_switch = FALSE; //Start with LCS off

void setup() {
pinMode(TURRET_MOVE_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Turret Move
pinMode(STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Strobe Signal Status
pinMode(INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Indexing Control Switch - 5
pinMode(LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Locking Control Switch - 6

pinMode(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, OUTPUT); //Indexing Solenoid
pinMode(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, OUTPUT); //Turret Clockwise Run
pinMode(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, OUTPUT); //Turret Counter Clockwise Run
}

void loop() {
// running_cycle gets set once per cycle, so the TURRET_MOVE_PIN signal just initiates a cycle
// This would be the place to initialise with a counter that counts down for moving x number of positions
// This sets the intial cycle start state, which is the state it should be in anyway, but it's belt and braces!
if(running_cycle == FALSE && digitalRead(TURRET_MOVE_PIN) == HIGH) {
running_cycle = TRUE;
stopping_cycle = FALSE;
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_clockwise = FALSE;
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, LOW);

}

// While the cycle is running, constantly evaluate the state
while(running_cycle) {
strobe_signal = digitalRead(STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN);
index_control_switch = digitalRead(INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN);
lock_control_switch = digitalRead(LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN);

// If the stopping_cycle state hasn't been reached, and the turret isn't moving, start clockwise movement
// Wait one second just so the strobe signal doesn't immediately trigger the stopping_cycle state
// Can probably make that more efficient, recording state for when it turns off, before checking for it again.
if (stopping_cycle == FALSE && moving_clockwise == FALSE) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, HIGH);
moving_clockwise = TRUE;
delay(1000);
continue;
}

// If the stopping_cycle state has not already been reached, check for the strobe signal
// if we've hit the strobe signal, then start to engage the locking pin
// also set the 'stopping_cycle' state
if (stopping_cycle == FALSE && moving_clockwise ==HIGH && strobe_signal == LOW) {
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, HIGH);
stopping_cycle = TRUE;
continue;
}

// If the stopping_cycle state is reached, check the index control switch, if it's set, stop clockwise rotation
// Wait 50ms and start moving counter-clockwise
if(stopping_cycle && moving_clockwise && index_control_switch == HIGH) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_clockwise = FALSE;
delay(50);
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, HIGH);
moving_counter_clockwise = TRUE;
continue;
}

// If the cycle stopping_cycle state has been reached, and counter clockwise rotation is still taking place
// Check the lock control switch, and stop motion. Wait 200ms and then release the indexing solenoid
if (stopping_cycle && moving_counter_clockwise && lock_control_switch == HIGH) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;
delay(200);
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, LOW);
running_cycle = FALSE;
continue;
}
}
}

[Chaz]

I think that's the final code. I have one more version where I had started to add 4 bit logic to read the positions but not sure if this was ever used or if it works.

#define TRUE 1
#define FALSE 0
#define TURRET_MOVE_PIN 2
#define STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN 3
#define INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN 4
#define LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN 5
#define POS1 6
#define POS2 7
#define POS3 8
#define POS4 9
#define POS5 10
#define POS6 12
#define POS7 13
#define POS8 1

#define INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN 23
#define TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN 24
#define TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN 25
#define TURN_OFF_THE_TURRET_MOVE_COMMAND_PIN 26
#define BITONE 27
#define BITTWO 28
#define BITTHREE 29
#define BITFOUR 30

// State variables
int running_cycle = FALSE;
int stopping_cycle = FALSE;
int moving_clockwise = FALSE;
int moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;

// signals evaluated on each loop
int strobe_signal = FALSE; //Start with Strobe Signal off
int index_control_switch = FALSE; //Start with ICS off
int lock_control_switch = FALSE; //Start with LCS off
int bit_one = FALSE;
int bit_two = FALSE;
int bit_three = FALSE;
int bit_four = FALSE;

void setup() {
pinMode(TURRET_MOVE_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Turret Move
pinMode(STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Strobe Signal Status
pinMode(INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Indexing Control Switch
pinMode(LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP); //Locking Control Switch
pinMode(POS1, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS2, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS3, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS4, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS5, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS6, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS7, INPUT_PULLUP);
pinMode(POS8, INPUT_PULLUP);

pinMode(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, OUTPUT); //Indexing Solenoid
pinMode(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, OUTPUT); //Turret Clockwise Run
pinMode(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, OUTPUT); //Turret Counter Clockwise Run
pinMode(BITONE, OUTPUT);
pinMode(BITTWO, OUTPUT);
pinMode(BITTHREE, OUTPUT);
pinMode(BITFOUR, OUTPUT);




}

void loop() {



if (digitalRead(POS1) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, LOW);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}
if (digitalRead(POS2) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, LOW);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}

if (digitalRead(POS3) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, LOW);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}

if (digitalRead(POS4) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, HIGH);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}


if (digitalRead(POS5) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, HIGH);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}

if (digitalRead(POS6) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, HIGH);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}


if (digitalRead(POS7) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, HIGH);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, HIGH);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, LOW);

}

if (digitalRead(POS8) == LOW) {
digitalWrite(BITONE, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTWO, LOW);
digitalWrite(BITTHREE, LOW);
digitalWrite (BITFOUR, HIGH);

}




// running_cycle gets set once per cycle, so the TURRET_MOVE_PIN signal just initiates a cycle
// This would be the place to initialise with a counter that counts down for moving x number of positions
// This sets the intial cycle start state, which is the state it should be in anyway, but it's belt and braces!
if(running_cycle == FALSE && digitalRead(TURRET_MOVE_PIN) == LOW) {
running_cycle = TRUE;
stopping_cycle = FALSE;
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_clockwise = FALSE;
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, LOW);
}





// While the cycle is running, constantly evaluate the state
while(running_cycle) {
strobe_signal = digitalRead(STROBE_SIGNAL_STATUS_PIN);
index_control_switch = digitalRead(INDEXING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN);
lock_control_switch = digitalRead(LOCKING_CONTROL_SWITCH_PIN);

// If the stopping_cycle state hasn't been reached, and the turret isn't moving, start clockwise movement
// Wait one second just so the strobe signal doesn't immediately trigger the stopping_cycle state
// Can probably make that more efficient, recording state for when it turns off, before checking for it again.
if (stopping_cycle == FALSE && moving_clockwise == FALSE) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, HIGH);
moving_clockwise = TRUE;
delay(1000);
continue;
}

// If the stopping_cycle state has not already been reached, check for the strobe signal
// if we've hit the strobe signal, then start to engage the locking pin
// also set the 'stopping_cycle' state
if (stopping_cycle == FALSE && moving_clockwise ==HIGH && strobe_signal == LOW) {
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, HIGH);
stopping_cycle = TRUE;
continue;
}

// If the stopping_cycle state is reached, check the index control switch, if it's set, stop clockwise rotation
// Wait 50ms and start moving counter-clockwise
// if(stopping_cycle && moving_clockwise && index_control_switch == HIGH) {
if(stopping_cycle && moving_clockwise == HIGH && index_control_switch == LOW) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_clockwise = FALSE;
delay(50);
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, HIGH);
moving_counter_clockwise = TRUE;
continue;
}

// If the cycle stopping_cycle state has been reached, and counter clockwise rotation is still taking place
// Check the lock control switch, and stop motion. Wait 200ms and then release the indexing solenoid
if (stopping_cycle && moving_counter_clockwise == HIGH && lock_control_switch == LOW) {
digitalWrite(TURRET_COUNTER_CLOCKWISE_RUN_PIN, LOW);
moving_counter_clockwise = FALSE;
delay(200);
digitalWrite(INDEXING_SOLENOID_PIN, LOW);
running_cycle = FALSE;
delay(1000);
continue;
}
}
}

[depronman]

I’m new to Arduino so at the moment that does not make a owl lot of sense but I’ll have a read through it latter today and try to figure out what it is doing
Thanks SO much for you help with this

Cheers. Paul


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[Chaz]

No problem. Another option is to go via something like a Click PLC or do the 'code' inside whatever controller you are going to use, if it supports the inputs / outputs.

[depronman]

How many inputs and outputs are we talking about?


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[depronman]

I’ve used arduinos on 3D printers I’ve built but that is just downloading martin as the sketch and loading to the arduino. I’ve never actually done any coding it the arduino language


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[Chaz]

The language isnt too difficult to understand. There is a lot of resource out there.

[depronman]

Looking at the video I can see the arduino at the top and a four relay board below it
What are the two green boards at the right hand middle ?
I can make out what I think are proximity sensors at the very bottom.
What are the three units on the Din rail that light up?


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[depronman]

Did you have it hooked up to the turret and indexing it from tool to tool ok ?


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[Chaz]

Looking at the video I can see the arduino at the top and a four relay board below it
What are the two green boards at the right hand middle ?
I can make out what I think are proximity sensors at the very bottom.
What are the three units on the Din rail that light up?


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Green boards are opto couplers from memory. I have it all in a box somewhere, can check over the weekend.

The din units are just relays.

[depronman]

That would be great if you can. Don’t want to order the wrong stuff [emoji23]


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[Chaz]

Did you have it hooked up to the turret and indexing it from tool to tool ok ?


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No, I never used it in the end.

[depronman]

The cyclone made chips at the weekend just gone [emoji16]
Still controlling the turret semi manually at the moment but machined 15off parts and the accuracy is amazing all within 0.0004” of each other most within 0.0002”
Metal removal rate is impressive compared to the smaller lathes I own (orac and boxford bud both cnc)
Will be smiling for month once the turret is controlled by linuxcnc

Cheers. Paul


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[depronman]

Update (which is somewhat late)
Turret now under full linuxcnc control via a turret controller based on an arduino
The turret controller was designed and build by a fellow member on this great forum Doddy for which I will be eternally great-full
Turret was converted from the original 110v three phase motor and break to a nema 34 stepper motor and 3.5-1 reduction gearbox. It doesn’t make for the fastest tool change ever seen but perfectly acceptable and so far 100% reliable
I am still blown away by the accuracy of this 25 year old lathe all be it I don’t think it as seen a lot of use
I would like to get a four jaw Chuck option, I have a suitable Chuck just need the back plate or dimensions to manufacture my own

Cheers. Paul


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[Doddy]

Crap - poke me to send the second board over when I'm back in the UK (next week).

[depronman]

Enjoy the hols mate
Paul


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