How are you all finding this energy rising?

[reefy86]

Been on my mind for awhile and after hearing and watching all these small businesses starting to fail due to the crisis my thoughts are with you guys. How are you all coping?

[Voicecoil]

It's not good. I tried to renew my contract last month but my energy provider won't do it as they say "prices are too volatile".

[hanermo2]

Im in Spain, near Barcelona.
Just installed 10 kW nominal PV array, 3-p, and our costs dropped from 400 to 100 with a further 100 reduction to come soonish == near 0 € power costs.

The critical path is:

We could finance this aka had the money or credit.
We had plenty of roof space well orientated aka "towards the sun".
Don´t need the PV company financing at 300% of project costs over 10 years.

The company wanted to do 2 major errors in the installs - i stopped.
Probably, 90% of clients would not know about dc line transmissions loss,
or care about visible installations infrastructure.

[reefy86]

It's not good. I tried to renew my contract last month but my energy provider won't do it as they say "prices are too volatile".

That bad :( I worked it out on the price cap that I would be running around 12kw per hr so if I was to run that 8hrs 5 days a week thats £700 a month that's not including any other power source being used. This could go on all the way through to 2024 too jeez...

[Voicecoil]

Im in Spain, near Barcelona.
Just installed 10 kW nominal PV array, 3-p, and our costs dropped from 400 to 100 with a further 100 reduction to come soonish == near 0 € power costs.

The critical path is:

We could finance this aka had the money or credit.
We had plenty of roof space well orientated aka "towards the sun".
Don´t need the PV company financing at 300% of project costs over 10 years.


That sounds good. The problem is that when you live a long way North, close to a Western coast like I do, there's not a lot of sunlight for much of the time, so being able to generate enough power to run a CNC machine or cook your dinner isn't easy.

[hanermo2]

Physics.
PV just does not work out well in scandinavia, and is so-so to marginal in the UK territories.

It´s hard on You guys, and I symphatise, but theres nothing anyone can do.

At some point a high-power transmission line, probably a superconductor, will be feasible to connect northern europe with say sahara.
Just as a thought exercise, a 10 x 10 km PV plant of 100% efficiency would generate as much power as the whole of the earth currently uses.

At our current 20% efficiency rating it would need a 50x10 km area to power the whole earth --
in reality, 3 plants spread throughout the world so the sun always shines somewhere.





That sounds good. The problem is that when you live a long way North, close to a Western coast like I do, there's not a lot of sunlight for much of the time, so being able to generate enough power to run a CNC machine or cook your dinner isn't easy.

[A_Camera]

Physics.
PV just does not work out well in scandinavia, and is so-so to marginal in the UK territories.

That's nonsense. I have a similar installation and produce a bit more than half of my yearly electricity needs, which is 11 MWh using solar energy. My bill was zero during four months per year the last three years. I get paid for the unused energy, and during this year it meant a pretty good income so far. Of course, during the winter there is very little production and all is used by me plus I have to buy as well. Nevertheless solar power is very good investment in Scandinavia as well, and even though I live in the southern part of it, it is quite a bit north of the northern part of Scotland.


It´s hard on You guys, and I symphatise, but theres nothing anyone can do.

Thank you. Though I personally prefer the climate of the north than the heat in Barcelona, especially during the summer.


At some point a high-power transmission line, probably a superconductor, will be feasible to connect northern europe with say sahara.

To be honest, we don't need to make us even more dependent of shit hole countries, quite the opposite, the less we depend on them the better it is. It's enough that we have to increase the oil flow from those, because of an other shit hole country dictator, Adolf Putin, decided to start an invasion war against his neighbour causing all this crap for everyone.


Just as a thought exercise, a 10 x 10 km PV plant of 100% efficiency would generate as much power as the whole of the earth currently uses.

I think that's a severely incorrect assumption.


At our current 20% efficiency rating it would need a 50x10 km area to power the whole earth --
in reality, 3 plants spread throughout the world so the sun always shines somewhere.

Yes? Well, I am not so sure. Besides, how would you transport the power from say the Kalahari, or the Australian desert to Europe? You are a bit optimistic or naive... I don't know which, but it is better if Europe makes itself independent and starts producing enough for our own use. Solar, wind, water and nuclear energy combined is the future, not electricity produced in the Sahara region or even further away. That's just a dream, which could have a worse outcome than that idiot Putin's stopping the gas to Europe causes.

[routercnc]

We have been trying to get a solar PV quote from a company with a good reputation since February. They originally said we should be sorted by September or October but keep getting repeat orders from a commercial client so we don’t make it up the list. They have stopped quoting for new enquiries but no sign of us getting any further up the list. They also mentioned shortages of panels and other parts.

We also tried 3 other places but they are all busy and not quoting for new business currently.

We have been using the time to research all the options including storage batteries, optimisers and so on. It is a bit of a minefield and all we can hope to do is try to work out what questions we need to ask otherwise we will get a ‘nice little system that is easy to install’ but maybe not what we need. For example there are different batteries depending on if you want to buy and sell (high cycle).

It’s a bit like saying you want a CNC machine. OK, well what do you need to do and what are the specs? Hopefully we will get there in the end!

[A_Camera]

We have been trying to get a solar PV quote from a company with a good reputation since February. They originally said we should be sorted by September or October but keep getting repeat orders from a commercial client so we don’t make it up the list. They have stopped quoting for new enquiries but no sign of us getting any further up the list. They also mentioned shortages of panels and other parts.

We also tried 3 other places but they are all busy and not quoting for new business currently.

We have been using the time to research all the options including storage batteries, optimisers and so on. It is a bit of a minefield and all we can hope to do is try to work out what questions we need to ask otherwise we will get a ‘nice little system that is easy to install’ but maybe not what we need. For example there are different batteries depending on if you want to buy and sell (high cycle).

It’s a bit like saying you want a CNC machine. OK, well what do you need to do and what are the specs? Hopefully we will get there in the end!

I am glad we installed it three years ago. It paid off well, we have passed 1/3 of the investment in savings so far, and we still have four months to the exact three year marker. I have several colleagues who have trouble getting quotes and some installers just don't give any quotes at all because they have the order books filled and have problems getting solar panels delivered. Everybody is in panic right now.

[Clive S]

We have been trying to get a solar PV quote from a company with a good reputation since February. They originally said we should be sorted by September or October but keep getting repeat orders from a commercial client so we don’t make it up the list. They have stopped quoting for new enquiries but no sign of us getting any further up the list. They also mentioned shortages of panels and other parts.

We also tried 3 other places but they are all busy and not quoting for new business currently.

We have been using the time to research all the options including storage batteries, optimisers and so on. It is a bit of a minefield and all we can hope to do is try to work out what questions we need to ask otherwise we will get a ‘nice little system that is easy to install’ but maybe not what we need. For example there are different batteries depending on if you want to buy and sell (high cycle).

It’s a bit like saying you want a CNC machine. OK, well what do you need to do and what are the specs? Hopefully we will get there in the end!

I have just ordered a Growatt AC Charger & Growatt 6.5kw Battery for my 4Kw (16 panels) PV system that I have had for 8.5 years It has generated 31.95 MWh to date.

My system has a small inverter under each panel so it outputs 230V AC so all the panels are connected in parallel (enphase) If you use a system with just one inverter they have to be wired in series and bring 450V DC ish down to the inverter..

I also don't let any power to go back to the grid as it diverts surplus energy to the immersion heater (boiler set to 30c and the panels bring up to 70c most days.
This is achieved with a box I built for the job .

The company I am using to install the battery and Charger is ([email protected])

31200

[Voicecoil]

That's nonsense. I have a similar installation and produce a bit more than half of my yearly electricity needs, which is 11 MWh using solar energy. My bill was zero during four months per year the last three years. I get paid for the unused energy, and during this year it meant a pretty good income so far. Of course, during the winter there is very little production and all is used by me plus I have to buy as well. Nevertheless solar power is very good investment in Scandinavia as well, and even though I live in the southern part of it, it is quite a bit north of the northern part of Scotland.

The issue here is not so much the high latitude (which gives you long sunlight hours in summer), but cloud cover due to being close to an Atlantic coast. I guess in Sweden you are shielded from that by the Norwegian mountains to some extent. The other thing that's a real b***er now in the UK is that if you put in a new installation you don't get a decent payback for energy exported to the grid anymore.

[hanermo2]

I produce 4x-5x what I use, and get paid peanuts for it.
This is ok.
Peak is 10kWh+, for 6 hours of high production, 10 hours of some production.
Avg use is about 600-800 W with 4-8 kWh when washing machines etc are in use.

You state 11 MWh of production/yr.
/360 = 0.03 = 30 kWh /day.
= 3 kWh x 10 hours per day.
This is incredible.

What panels do You have and how many ?






I think that's a severely incorrect assumption.

Yes? Well, I am not so sure.
Besides, how would you transport the power from say the Kalahari, or the Australian desert to Europe? You are a bit optimistic or naive... I don't know which, but it is better if Europe makes itself independent and starts producing enough for our own use.
Solar, wind, water and nuclear energy combined is the future, not electricity produced in the Sahara region or even further away. That's just a dream, which could have a worse outcome than that idiot Putin's stopping the gas to Europe causes.

[A_Camera]

The issue here is not so much the high latitude (which gives you long sunlight hours in summer), but cloud cover due to being close to an Atlantic coast. I guess in Sweden you are shielded from that by the Norwegian mountains to some extent. The other thing that's a real b***er now in the UK is that if you put in a new installation you don't get a decent payback for energy exported to the grid anymore.

Sunlight is not an absolute necessity. I don't think we have more sunny hours than you have, well... maybe during the summer, but not on yearly basis, solar panels are fine with clouds, as long as not too compact and dark. Snow covered panels produce nothing. Norway does not have any major effect on the weather in Sweden, maybe locally along the border, but I doubt that also, since the landscape on both sides of the border is pretty similar. Also, Norway is above UK. This is true especially for the mountainous areas of Norway. The northern part of Scotland is on the same latitude as the southern part of Norway. Denmark (flat country) is between UK and Sweden, so whatever weather you have, we will get that weather a day or two later, including the winds from the North sea.

When it comes to payment for overproduction, that's not very good here either, compared to the price I have to pay for the part I must buy. Nevertheless, it is the total sum which is important for the payback, which is in my case very good.

[routercnc]

Brilliant thanks Clive.
I’ve been running spreadsheets on our East West roof and was looking at:
Panels on West only ( East or East and West combinations were not so good)
4 or 6 kWp panels (in series as no shade on roof and cheaper)
6 kWh battery
Single inverter
Eddi water heater diverter
Zappi car charger (existing)
Octopus Agile tariff as this allows buy/sell every 30 mins


Undecided on AC (grid side) or DC ( panel side) for battery but leaning towards panel side as less conversions AC to DC and I think I have more control over the battery(?). Plus many more confusing questions and options!

[A_Camera]

I produce 4x-5x what I use, and get paid peanuts for it.
This is ok.
Peak is 10kWh+, for 6 hours of high production, 10 hours of some production.
Avg use is about 600-800 W with 4-8 kWh when washing machines etc are in use.

You state 11 MWh of production/yr.
/360 = 0.03 = 30 kWh /day.
= 3 kWh x 10 hours per day.
This is incredible.

What panels do You have and how many ?

31201

It is a Solar Edge system using 305W panels and I have 39 on my roof, facing south one side and west the other. Each panel has an optimizer and my inverter is a 10kW 3-phase inverter also from Solar Edge. The two trees cast a bit of shadow, and for maximum production, they should be cut down, but we decided to keep them for comfort, they reduce the heat inside the house during the summer.

31202

Incredible, but true and is normal here. My neighbours have about the same using different systems and slightly different installation. We have a yearly production of about 11 MWh as you can see. We have to heat during the winter (it's a bit colder here than in Barcelona), so half of our yearly consumption is for heating and hot water, and during that period we produce very little compared to the total need. A large portion of our consumption is pumped into our cars, we have an EV and a PHEV. The EV is used by my wife who needs it for quite a bit of driving and the car is always charged at home. My hybrid has enough battery to take me to and from work every day for the last three years and when I come home the battery is flat and needs to be charged. This will change soon since we are about to change cars, she will buy another EV with larger battery and I will also buy an EV with high capacity battery, but our total energy needs will not be much higher because our driving needs will be the same. Anyway, driving electric is still much cheaper than using petrol for the same trip.

[dazp1976]

My mums and my father in laws roof pv systems produce next to nothing compared to their system sizes. One is 12 panel, one is 15 panel. In fact, My mums place was already installed (circa 2010) when she bought it and it looks like they haven't been producing for a while.
Likely the inverter but isn't worth fixing when doing the math, be breaking even over a full 10yr period.
They're not worth the cost tbf. It's BS.

Liz truss will sort it....... We'll all be in debt for years to come via government loans somehow. That's how Britains economy works, it relies on debt. The more debt there is, the more it earns. It's all wrong man!.

[Clive S]

Brilliant thanks Clive.
I’ve been running spreadsheets on our East West roof and was looking at:
Panels on West only ( East or East and West combinations were not so good)
4 or 6 kWp panels (in series as no shade on roof and cheaper)
6 kWh battery
Single inverter
Eddi water heater diverter
Zappi car charger (existing)
Octopus Agile tariff as this allows buy/sell every 30 mins


Undecided on AC (grid side) or DC ( panel side) for battery but leaning towards panel side as less conversions AC to DC and I think I have more control over the battery(?). Plus many more confusing questions and options!

My Battery & Charger is being fitted on the 12th Sept
The installation also includes solar panels clean.
Service every year for 10 years.
Guarantee on Bat. and charger 15 years.
Full monitoring with App.

We get paid for what we generate. I think that has been stopped now for new systems.

My panels are only 240w I think they have improved them to give out about 320 ish W

Also you could only have 4Kw on a domestic install at the time, this has now been changed. If I add more I lose the payment FIT.

The system has more than paid for itself by a long way.

Good luck with the install.

[A_Camera]

My mums and my father in laws roof pv systems produce next to nothing compared to their system sizes. One is 12 panel, one is 15 panel. In fact, My mums place was already installed (circa 2010) when she bought it and it looks like they haven't been producing for a while.
Likely the inverter but isn't worth fixing when doing the math, be breaking even over a full 10yr period.
They're not worth the cost tbf. It's BS.

Perhaps the site needs some maintenance...? I mean, seriously, nothing lasts forever, but I am pretty sure it is worth fixing, unless the installation is totally wrong. Also, at least here in Sweden, the warranty is so long that it would DEFINITELY be worth fixing if it was mine.

Warranty for me is:

Solar panels: 10 years
Inverter: 12 years
Optimizers: 25 years
Effect warranty on panels: Minimum 80% after 25 years
Installation: 5 years

So I suggest you help your parents, read their contracts and maybe you will find out that there is still warranty. Anyway, even if they need to change the inverter, that's just a small cost compared to the whole installation. 27 panels, even if they are old, should produce at least some energy, much more than "next to nothing". Aren't they keep track of when things break? It is after all, a "machine" just like the washing machine, the car, the stove or whatever else. Must be kept under control to see it does what it meant to do. Everything can break, PV systems are not exception.

PV systems are not BS at all, and definitely worth the cost, but I know there are many not so serious installers, not only in UK but everywhere else.

[dazp1976]

Perhaps the site needs some maintenance...? I mean, seriously, nothing lasts forever, but I am pretty sure it is worth fixing, unless the installation is totally wrong. Also, at least here in Sweden, the warranty is so long that it would DEFINITELY be worth fixing if it was mine.

Warranty for me is:

Solar panels: 10 years
Inverter: 12 years
Optimizers: 25 years
Effect warranty on panels: Minimum 80% after 25 years
Installation: 5 years

So I suggest you help your parents, read their contracts and maybe you will find out that there is still warranty. Anyway, even if they need to change the inverter, that's just a small cost compared to the whole installation. 27 panels, even if they are old, should produce at least some energy, much more than "next to nothing". Aren't they keep track of when things break? It is after all, a "machine" just like the washing machine, the car, the stove or whatever else. Must be kept under control to see it does what it meant to do. Everything can break, PV systems are not exception.

PV systems are not BS at all, and definitely worth the cost, but I know there are many not so serious installers, not only in UK but everywhere else.

Been looking into it as you suggested.
The company who fitted mum's went bust years ago. It's actually on of those installs where the company rents your roof from you.
Will have do do some deeper digging and find out who inherited the bust companies contract.

As for the father in law he bought his outright at the high rate Feed In Tarrif (FIT). It still makes enough to cover the initial cost and give about £100 per yr in pocket. His quote is.....
'It's never been anywhere near what the salesman quoted but it will do'.

[A_Camera]

Been looking into it as you suggested.
The company who fitted mum's went bust years ago. It's actually on of those installs where the company rents your roof from you.
Will have do do some deeper digging and find out who inherited the bust companies contract.

As for the father in law he bought his outright at the high rate Feed In Tarrif (FIT). It still makes enough to cover the initial cost and give about £100 per yr in pocket. His quote is.....
'It's never been anywhere near what the salesman quoted but it will do'.

I have never heard of "roof renting" contracts, maybe they exist in Sweden as well, but in that case the roof owner gets paid for the use of the roof. Just like if you want to rent a room in my house, you have to pay a rent. The only ones who don't pay rent for using my roof are the birds and the bugs...

As for your father in law, even he should check the contract, because if it is true, and the contracts are similar to what we have, then he should have a production warranty also. On the other hand, the payback can't really be calculated in cash, because that depends on the price per kWh, which as we can see specially now, nobody really can predict. However, the produced power can be anticipated with quite good accuracy. Anyway, what the salesman is promising, or have promised, is pretty irrelevant unless it is printed on the paper he signed.

[dazp1976]

I have never heard of "roof renting" contracts, maybe they exist in Sweden as well, but in that case the roof owner gets paid for the use of the roof. Just like if you want to rent a room in my house, you have to pay a rent. The only ones who don't pay rent for using my roof are the birds and the bugs...
.

The way it worked when it was in existence is:
If you gave a company permission to use your roof then they would give you a free system install. The catch was that the panel company received the feed in tarrif from the government, not the homeowner.
This scheme didn't last long because the FIT decreased pretty quickly and was no longer worth while for the companies.
It can also a nightmare buying a house and getting a mortgage because the banks take the view that you do not own the roof. Cash buyers = no problem.