Help with new machine

[Xenophya]

Hello,

I am new to the forum.

We are an industrial design company specialising in the design and development of motorcycles and power sports vehicles. We regularly make full scale Prototype models from auto styling clay, model board (Ureol) mdf, sla sls etc

We are looking to purchase a CNC router for cutting model board, styrofoam, wood, MDF and perhaps plastic. Primarily we want to cut female tools from Polyurethane model board (Renishape, Ureol etc) so that we can make GRP and Carbon parts. We have a fair bit of work coming up that will mean we will need to cut GRP female mould tools from Ureol model board or mdf. We could farm it out but the amount we will need to do means we could be better off investing in our own machine. Don't really have a budget as yet but would ideally be looking to spend no more than say 12k. I'm guessing a 4ft x 4ft by say 400mm would do for the sort of work we will be doing (mostly bike panels). As well as creating female mould tools for GRP parts we will also cut model parts for things like engine casings or headlight reflectors. Obviously we could make tools in sections and dowel and pin them together so make parts that are larger than the bed size.

I am looking for any help or advice that you can offer.

Many thanks in advance
Mark

[GEOFFREY]

Hi, wellcome to the site. I do not think you will find a machine with the Z travel that you require within your budget, but I am sure you can build a machine to suit.
I think the best alternative would be to buy a machine with the bed size you want and modify the gantry and make a new Z axis complete.If you are only cutting
soft materials the high Z should be ok. - Just my opinion. G.

[Xenophya]

Hi, wellcome to the site. I do not think you will find a machine with the Z travel that you require within your budget, but I am sure you can build a machine to suit.
I think the best alternative would be to buy a machine with the bed size you want and modify the gantry and make a new Z axis complete.If you are only cutting
soft materials the high Z should be ok. - Just my opinion. G.

Hello Geoffrey,

Many thanks for the speedy reply. We don't really have the time or expertise to build one, what do you think we should expect to pay? What companies should we be looking at? We would also be looking for training on how to use the machine? What about if that Z was reduced to say 300mm?

Cheers
Mark

[GEOFFREY]

Mark, most of the members of this forum are interested in diy machine builds, and many of them have had little or no experience prior to their builds. If you read the build logs you will realize what I mean, and see that with some help and guidance people usually end up with a machine to suit their needs. If you have a decent sized workshop and a good 3 phase supply you should be able to find an older commercial machine within your budget that would suit, although it would probably have a 2400mm bed.
It is possible that one of our most experienced members would be prepared to design and build a machine for you. G.

[Xenophya]

Hello Geoffrey,

Many thanks for the speedy reply,



We have a good sized work shop and a decent 3 phase supply (have a look here to see some photos of our set-up http://www.coroflot.com/mark19/Studio)



I don’t mind the idea of buying a second user machine, but we are looking to buy through an asset finance company because it is more tax efficient than buying outright. We are also after training support so we really need to buy from a reputable company ideally in the UK who know the product and can help us out when we get stuck.


In November last year we ordered an EMACH CNC Router Model EM Roto 600 from a chap called Leigh Tricklebank at EMACH International Limited. We were told it was an Ex Demo model and we were quoted £12,000.00. I went down to Walsall to see the chassis being built, it was all very convincing. It had a 2000mm x 600mm Working Area, a 250mm Working Height (across the 600mm width) with a 4KW Electro Spindle, Pneumatic Material Clamps, 10M/Min Axis Speed, and quoted 0.2mm Axis Repeatability 0.05 Programming Accuracy. Emach’s quote included delivery to us up here in the North East, ½ Day Installation, included 1 Day Training and a seat of ‘Delcam artcam’ CAD CAM Software.

83768375


It all seemed too good to be true, and it was! The machine was never delivered and Emach ceased trading. Fortunately for us we went through an asset finance company, as such they actually bought the piece of equipment to lease to us over a 4 year period. On further investigation it turns out Leigh Tricklebank has been the MD of a string of companies that have taken money and failed to deliver. Unbelievably the finance company didn’t check that we had received the machine before releasing payment in full. The finance company have now refunded us the instalments and deposit we had paid and are now pursuing Tricklebank to recover the debt. Ironically the reason we chose Emach was that they were a British company making the routers here so would be able to offer the support and training that we are after.



We are now starting the whole process of sourcing a suitable machine again. If you or any of the forum members can pass on any contact details of a company that might be able to help us I would be extremely grateful.


Many thanks in advance Mark

[Web Goblin]

Shame about the Emach deal. I do seem to remember something about them disappearing at the end of last year although I have never dealt with them. I also think one of the forum members used to work for them?

[Xenophya]

Yes he did and was extremely helpful, a top chap.

[Xenophya]

Would reducing our required Z height help?

[D.C.]

(have a look here to see some photos of our set-up http://www.coroflot.com/mark19/Studio)


That is a beautiful workspace and some beautiful work you are doing, sorry I can't help with the cnc problem but I can do a bit of free spell checking:

Conferance Facility - Our meeting room space, (with our artwork on the walls)

Should be Conference

[GEOFFREY]

Hi Mark, sorry to hear of your tale of woe with regard to EMACH. I'm pleased to hear your are not going to lose money over the deal, how on earth did they release money without checking?

With regard to the lower Z you will certainly increase the number of possible machines available, but I do think it still likely to be a used machine rather than new.

Do you think that the leasing company would be prepared to allow used purchase, if so would there be an age limit? G.

[Xenophya]

That is a beautiful workspace and some beautiful work you are doing, sorry I can't help with the cnc problem but I can do a bit of free spell checking:

Conferance Facility - Our meeting room space, (with our artwork on the walls)

Should be Conference

LOL Thanks very much, sorted it now!

[Xenophya]

Hi Mark, sorry to hear of your tale of woe with regard to EMACH. I'm pleased to hear your are not going to lose money over the deal, how on earth did they release money without checking?

With regard to the lower Z you will certainly increase the number of possible machines available, but I do think it still likely to be a used machine rather than new.

Do you think that the leasing company would be prepared to allow used purchase, if so would there be an age limit? G.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't finance a second hand machine as long as it came from an established company who can provide a proper invoice. At the same time as taking on the CNC router we took on a second hand Stiefelmayer System B surface plate and CMM (which was delivered and installed).

[Musht]

Cripes is there something about CNC that`s attracting shady operators, rhetorical question suppose :-(

Does your proposed 12K include software, full fat Artcam and the like will eat 2K easily enough with a bit of support.

Even with training , practice helps ,even with a designers 3D mindset some concepts take some adjustment to CNC world, where`s zero....

So figure in some time and eaten material for research,training and practice purposes before the machine becomes productive.

AXYZ have been around longer than 5 minutes and S/H might fit in your budget, been a couple for sale here over the years;

CNC Router CNC Laser CNC Plasma CNC Knife Systems - AXYZ International (http://www.axyz.co.uk)

Dunno if Frog have UK dealers but they are notable for making 10" cutters

FROG3D | Home (http://www.3dcutting.com)

[grace chen]

Hello,

I am new to the forum.

We are an industrial design company specialising in the design and development of motorcycles and power sports vehicles. We regularly make full scale Prototype models from auto styling clay, model board (Ureol) mdf, sla sls etc

We are looking to purchase a CNC router for cutting model board, styrofoam, wood, MDF and perhaps plastic. Primarily we want to cut female tools from Polyurethane model board (Renishape, Ureol etc) so that we can make GRP and Carbon parts. We have a fair bit of work coming up that will mean we will need to cut GRP female mould tools from Ureol model board or mdf. We could farm it out but the amount we will need to do means we could be better off investing in our own machine. Don't really have a budget as yet but would ideally be looking to spend no more than say 12k. I'm guessing a 4ft x 4ft by say 400mm would do for the sort of work we will be doing (mostly bike panels). As well as creating female mould tools for GRP parts we will also cut model parts for things like engine casings or headlight reflectors. Obviously we could make tools in sections and dowel and pin them together so make parts that are larger than the bed size.

I am looking for any help or advice that you can offer.

Many thanks in advance
Mark


Hello mark

We are manufacturer of cnc routers in China. For your requirements,here are two kinds of cnc routers for your choice.

One with below specification(picture attached)

working size:1300*2500*400mm
servo motors and drivers
DSP handle /NC studio control system
table facet:vacuum suction or T-slot

And the other is professional mould making cnc router,which Z axis height can be highed up to 600mm.

If you are interested,please feel free to contact with me at [email protected].

More details and pictures will be sent to you.

Regards.
grace8382

[andrewbond]

Blow the budget and go 5 axis .....

5-axis CNC Router (http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/5axis.htm)

Ideal for what your intending to do I think!

[GEOFFREY]

Hi Mark, that large machine from China certainly looks like it woul be well suited for your needs. It would be interesting to get a full specification and post it on the forum and I feel certain you would get some really helpful comments. Please take note of the post made by Musht, having a super machine sitting in your workshop will not be much good unless you have someone that can properly program it. Operating cnc machines is not rocket science, but to learn to draw the components in 3d and then machine them will certainly take some time and will probably result in a few headaches!!! It would be worth asking if there is one of these machines in the UK for you to visit and discuss. Some people "knock" Chinese goods, but some of the quality from "C" nowadays is very good, even the UK self builders usually end up with some components from there. G.

[Xenophya]

Hi Mark, that large machine from China certainly looks like it woul be well suited for your needs. It would be interesting to get a full specification and post it on the forum and I feel certain you would get some really helpful comments. Please take note of the post made by Musht, having a super machine sitting in your workshop will not be much good unless you have someone that can properly program it. Operating cnc machines is not rocket science, but to learn to draw the components in 3d and then machine them will certainly take some time and will probably result in a few headaches!!! It would be worth asking if there is one of these machines in the UK for you to visit and discuss. Some people "knock" Chinese goods, but some of the quality from "C" nowadays is very good, even the UK self builders usually end up with some components from there. G.

Hello Geoffrey,

I'm one step ahead of you. I have already emailed Grace and her exactly that. I will post her response.

Cheers Mark

[Xenophya]

Hello, yes training is very necessary for us. We can use Rhino well and have two CMM machines but have never used Cam software before. I'm also after support for the machine itself. What happens if somthing goes wrong a week before a deadline, I want to be able get it sorted ASAP. At the moment I can push the supplier or take the job else where, can't really do that when we have our own machine.

[D.C.]

Before you get too excited about 5-axis machines you might want to look at the cost of 5-axis cam, it's not cheap. Pricing List | VisualMILL for SolidWorks® (http://www.rhinocam.com/Pricing-List.shtml)
You also might be interest in the training links on that page. There is a feature comparison list here from the UK suppliers RhinoCAM 2.0 CNC for Rhino CNC Inside Rhino Software (http://www.simplyrhino.co.uk/products/rhinocam.html)

[Xenophya]

Hello Chaps,

Grace has sent me a spec. Seems very good value for money, although they don't have a UK distributor or rep. I have replied asking if they have ever sold a machine to a company here in the UK. Let me know what you think.

83838384

[martin54]

No idea what the Chinese Company are like but you would need to do your homework on them. Other problem is going to be support for the machine, best your going to get by buying from China is phone support which may not be easy to understand. You will still need someone with some sort of understanding of the machine parts both mechanical & electronic.

Just out of interest do you already have all the equipment you need to do the carbon fibre work & someone with the expertise to use it??

[Xenophya]

Hello thanks for the reply. Yes we have a fair amount of experience with grp and composite materials.

We regularly take splash moulds from clay models to make patterns for both prototype and production tooling. We have made plugs for a number of aftermarket fairing companies. We have also had model board tools cut on cnc machines for us.

We've done a bit of pre preg and vac bagging work although not a lot. Our carbon work is never that pretty (actually neither is my grp work for that matter, my business partner is much better at it than I am) but it does the job we need it to. Most of the time we need to make a one off part for a design model, for example we will model a mud guard in clay but if we were to move the bike it would crack so we take a splash mould and make a grp part.

[Nthkentman]

Hi, Would you know who the member is ?
I am purchasing an eMach machine next week....Unless I'm warned off

[EddyCurrent]

Hi, Would you know who the member is ?
I am purchasing an eMach machine next week....Unless I'm warned off

look here;

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/1785-Question-on-Micro-step-resolution?p=42368#post42368

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5621-4-Axis-CNC-Milling-Mc-which-and-where?p=41449#post41449

Use the forum 'Search' box.