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I Considered Tormach but discounted them for my own reasons based on weight, possible rigidity with their weight, steppers rather than servos, limited controller options and some other bits>
Seems I dodged a bullet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtnaqJuJ9kw
:D
“possible rigidity with their weight“
Just curious what rigidity concerns you have?
If this is a garage machine for your own purposes then, unless you’re working with inconel, they are more than rigid enough for a hobby machine.
If you’re trying to start a machine shop and be competitive and actually make some money, then maybe not.
Tormach are less than half the weight of any VMC with similar envelope, if that doesn't ring alarm bells with you then you need to do some reading or gain some machining experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapper
Further, the fact that their chassis are fairly cheaply converted manual milling machines on welded stands should give further cause for serious concern.
Finally, reading the dedicated forums clearly shows that what you are predominantly buying is a project and not a finished machine and support is primarily user-to-user and rarely from the manufacturer/assembler/dissembler (strive to understand that English before commenting) you should be very wary indeed whatever your use might be for a machine which may be delivered with more slack than your average Coal Merchant's lorry! :D
They're probably fine for making your average toy choo-choo but I'm not counting that as Engineering with a capital "E" :D
I watched that video a while ago, and it certainly confirmed a few suspicions I had.
The other thing it highlighted were the NYCNC bias when reviewing things. I've watched a good few NYCNC videos, as they do contain a lot of good information, but I did wonder why they used to dismiss certain products which I always thought were perfectly good.
I don’t think there is such a thing as a VMC with similar envelope? There are the XYZ 500/560’s that you could count. Haas have their mini mill which isn’t generally considered to be a VMC, and on a welded steel base also. I don’t think having a big heavy cast iron base really offers a great deal at this end of the spectrum unless you plan on zipping half a ton around at rapid feed.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicniner
But these are industrial machines for an industrial environment, designed to run two shifts and spit parts out to meet deadlines. Again, I don’t know what your usage is, for Engineering with a capital E (I read that as making a business out of it?) then fair enough as I said in my first post, I have made a bit of an assumption given your signature (hence the question), but they’re not really necessary for garage hobby work, besides not many people have the power, the space or the floor to support such machines at home.
People can and do do great work on tormach’s, particularly the 1100, in all sorts of materials from wood and plastics to tool steels and titanium. There are other machines of similar flavours in the way of novakon, skyfire, syil etc. all of which have users doing great work in harder stuff and holding size when they need them to, but none will move a lot of material in a hurry. All are far more substantial and not to be confused with the taig’s, denfords, siegs of this world but you’re right they’re no VMC, they sit somewhere in between. That’s the difference between a £20-30k machine aimed at the home user and a £50-60k machine aimed at a commercial user. Support and slack would fall into that too.
Point is, these machines have a market because they can and do work well for a lot of people who don’t demand too much of them. If you like to keep your car clean you don’t go out and spend 10’s of thousands on an industrial car wash. You buy a little jet wash and a couple of buckets. You reach the same results, but it takes you longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapper
You missed, "On a good day, with a following wind, if they're lucky and not for long" out of that, the same or better is also true of cheaply converted manual mills, which until they add linear ways, zero-backlash ball screw systems and servos with absolute positioning, is what you get when you buy a Tormach, having spent money which should be getting you some considerably better components.
They sound good in the advertising hype but I assume you haven't worked in the materials you quote as some Tool Steels and Titanium Alloys are among the easiest metals to machine with the right tooling, feeds and speeds.
A quick Google and watching the sponsored YouTube content would lead a person to your conclusions, you need to join the forums and private groups for a given machine to get a better overview, some of them are simply not of merchantable quality as delivered, why not read around the subject a little for the one's you've quoted and tell me why? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Snapper
You still need the rigidity to machine them, which was my point the rigidity is there to do the work just not fast enough to make money in a commercial operation.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicniner
I have been in all these groups, quite a long time actually, and don't think I've watched much, if any, sponsored youtube videos. For example I have seen plenty of examples of that guy at NYCCNC's work but I don't think I've ever watched a single one of his videos. All sorts of machines can arrive with similar issues, you will probably have seen yourself how many people have mentioned their HAAS machines arriving well out of spec. The difference is something like a HAAS is delivered and commissioned by one of their engineers who will either set it all right or in some cases send it back to be repaired or replaced. A Tormach, a Syil, a Skyfire, a Novakon, anything of that calibre or below you are on your own really. I think Tormach proabably sells at least 20 machines to every one skyfire, syil or novakon, so a larger number of reported problems is to be expected. Many of the issues with Tormach (mostly backlash related) seem to be relatively simple fixes and their users are happy enough once sorted. I'm of the opinion they should all probably be inspected and put right before being shipped instead of 1/20 or whatever it is but... I can understand you not wanting to take that risk particularly with a machine shipped and supported from overseas.
I'm not particularly defending Tormach here, or looking for an argument, I was just curious about your reasoning. As a follower of these groups yourself you will know that they tend to get trolled by HAAS and similar guys who tell them their machines are a worthless waste of money and they need a HAAS. The trend continues as HAAS owners are trolled and told they can't machine anything harder than aluminium and that they need/should have bought an Okuma or a Mori. It's horses for courses really. :thumsup:
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapper
If you can afford the fees for a Haas, go for it.
From a perspective of someone that has to deal with this question from the sales side, it is all down to how much bang for buck you want to get.
A used Haas, will require some electrical work and a forklift to get it in your garage. It can be found for relatively cheap in a dirty possibly beaten up state. Will it produce good parts? Possibly... As with anything used, it will be a gamble.
A Tormach? Non-starter in my books. Equally so for a Novakon. Both run off a PC and that adds one layer of extra control I am starting to dislike. Add to that the R8 spindle taper, low top end RPM and you get a very expensive hobby machine. the Novakons have the servo motor package which is actually quite good but the spindle motor is too large to put an economical power drawbar on them. That said, they would be nice machines for the money with a full enclosure and a servo motor spindle on Bt-30. My last personal machine had the same castings and I was actually very happy with it.
Now we get to the Skyfire/Syil machines. We are looking at a actual rivalry here. If you got the cash and want the best you can get, I recommend a fully featured Syil X7 Combo. It has proper VMC credentials for its size. Both will do rigid tapping, both have servo's but there is a significant difference in build quality. The Skyfire has electrical issues that are being worked on constantly. The Syil X7 Combo... well for now in this light VMC category it is king. Very good customer support from the factory, a growing community and top notch electricals throughout. You do however pay for all that.
If anyone wants to discuss further on the last paragraph, then do reach out.