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Good points. A 2:1 ratio resulting in the ballscrew rotating with 1500rpm, I will have to go for either 2010 or 2510 ballscrews, and decrease the ballscrew length to about 1100-1200mm.. This will give me a safety factor of around 1.2 with fixed-floating bearings.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarjar
Seems ridiculous to have to use any larger diameter ballscrews. I have not seen anyone else using that here on the forum. How does everyone else achieve 15-20m/min?
Don't forget to include the carriages in the cost estimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicCnc
You'd be just about okay with a 1200mm 2010 screw @ 1500rpm.
Those of us using steppers rather than servos don't tend to go above 10m/min because the steppers will really lose torque above 1k rpm. My machine can just about handle 15m/min, but I'm leaving it at 10.
You'll have to find build logs for comparable routers using servos - I don't have any experience with them so won't advise.
I quickly compared the 1100mm HGR20 and HGR30 sets offered from BST Motion on Aliexpress (I have seen them recommended a lot here, Fred was the seller) and the prices came down to 210€ vs 265€, if I recall the numbers correctly. Both sets included 2 rails and 4 carriages. Seems like a very good deal to me. Even with VAT added is only like 260-320€.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyUK
Sounds good. I will have to see if I go for 2510 or 2010.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyUK
What diameter and pitch, ratio and stepper RPM are you running on your machine to achieve the 10m/min?
Good advice, thanks. I have looked around here and I will also browse through CNCZONE to see if I can find something similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyUK
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Thought you said wanted a good surface finish.!!. . . . Any decently built machine will give you that finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicCnc
Also:
If you go with 30mm rails and 25 or 32mm ball-screws then you can forget 180w or 400w servos. The extra inertia will freak a 400w servo motor when trying to stop 25mm screws from 3000rpm that are attached to a reasonably heavy Gantry which is sat on heavy bearings with a heavy ATC spindle hanging off it.
The best machines are those that have the right balance of power and weight which means getting the design and components matched. The choices you are looking at now will give you a very unbalanced machine.!
20mm screws and rails are more than enough for a machine this size. Regards the screw size and whip etc then forget whip calculators because they can't and don't account for the whole machine.
If you want proof if 20mm won't whip at 15mtr/min then just ask anyone who's using them on similar sized machine.! . . . . I've built dozens and trust me they don't if properly aligned and with correct end bearings. However, I've told you how to eliminate any chance of whip and still get the speed you require.
Also on that note, you have to factor in the Servos and the extra resolution and power they offer over steppers. This means you can use higher pitch screws and still end up with good resolution compared to steppers. Use this along with applying a ratio and the screw speed can be lowered greatly.
Regards the weight then I think you must have got something wrong because a machine this size will easily weigh more than 200kg, even 300Kg by time it's all finished.
Whats the maximum weight you'd expect though? I think a 1,500 Kg minimum as suggested in post #2 is a little overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Hehe, seems like we have different standards! I think that finish is quite good and I would be happy with that. Of course, I will try to achieve the best finish I can with my DIY build. I will not settle with decent, if I can get good.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Yes, I got confused with the advice from jarjar. It seemed quite contradicting to the general advice I've seen on the forums. He mentioned that a 400W would probably be the bare minimum. Anyway I don't plan to rotate any ballscrews with 3000rpm. I will use at least a 2:1 ratio, resulting in max. 1500rpm.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
As I planned from then beginning, to use 20mm rails. Thanks for confirming!Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I've seen those builds, which is why I was skeptical and questioned jarjar's advice about the huge ballscrews.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Correct. About preloading the ballscrew with tension, using double fixed bearings. Is there any guide how to do this? I guess the applied force by tightening the fixed bearing nuts will be critical?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
That is exactly what I said, that I expect it to be around the 300kg mark once finished. Probably above! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
My plan is now the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
- I will build the machine with motor brackets than can be replaced. This will allow me to at least first test the 180W JMC servo motors. If they are not powerful enough even experimenting with ratios, I will have to buy new motors - probably some 400W servo motors or get stepper motors. This will be an expensive learning lesson, but that is life! I will most likely never buy any parts before design is ready again, lol.
- 20mm HIWIN linear rails on all axis's.
- 2010 ball screws on the Y-axis (base frame).
- 1610 or 2010 ball screw on the X-axis (gantry).
- 1605 ball screw on the Z-axis.
Alright first actual design post with some pictures.
Z-axis design
- 3kW ATC spindle & Ø100mm spindle bracket. The spindle alone weights about 19kg according to the supplier (RattmMotors).
Attachment 27501 Attachment 27502
- 20x200x500mm aluminium rear plate, onto which spacers, BK12/BF12 bearings and motor bracket are mounted.
- 15x50x500mm aluminium spacers to make room for BK12/BF12 bearings and 1605 ballscrew. Linear rails are mounted to the spacers.
- 20x200x171mm aluminium top plate for HIWIN narrow guide carriages that goes on top of the gantry. Gantry ballscrew nut bracket will be mounted to the same plate.
- 20x200x240mm aluminium front plate, onto which the HIWIN narrow guide carriages and ballscrew nut bracket DSG16H are mounted.
Attachment 27490 Attachment 27491 Attachment 27494 Attachment 27493 Attachment 27492 Attachment 27495
- About 200mm gantry clearance
- 146mm overhang
- Spindle can be raised about 60mm above gantry
- 1605 ballscrew, 400m long with 25mm F-length end machining for BK12 fixed bearing to allow for pulley. Floating bearing in the other end.
- 20T HTD 5M pulley on the servomotor and 40T HTD 5M pulley on the ballscrew.
- 180W JMC servo motor.
- Motor bracket with oval holes to allow belt tensioning.
Attachment 27496 Attachment 27497 Attachment 27498 Attachment 27499 Attachment 27500 Attachment 27505
- Moving weight in Z-axis direction, about 26kg - still missing cables, water pipes, proximity switches etc
- Moving weight in X-axis (gantry) direction: 40kg - still missing cables, water pipes, proximity switches etc.
Attachment 27503 Attachment 27504
I am pretty happy with the total weight of the Z-axis. I don't think it'll go over 45-50kg with everything added.
I could still trim down the X-axis direction moving weight, by removing the linear rail spacers and adding machining to the front and rear plates. But I am thinking that I will need that stiffness which the 20mm plates gives me. Would it weaken the structure a lot by adding machining of 7x60mm along the middle of the plates, to allow room for the BK/BF bearings and ballscrew nut bracket?
Think JarJar is talking about a different strength machine, esp when he's comparing to a Datron which is a big lump of epoxy Granite. Thou that's like comparing apples with pears when a Datron cost's like £100K.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyUK
I'd expect a machine this size to be around 400Kg when finished using the materials and components suggested. It's amazing just how much weight fasteners etc add.
The spindle with Mount + BT30 Collet chuck weighs 19.5Kg. Don't forget if you are using dust extraction then you will need to retract the dust hood to allow access for tool change. This will mean adding pneumatic actuators and solenoid valves along with brackets etc and the dust hood its self.!... The weight creeps up fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicCnc
Your estimate of 45-50Kg is about right. You will need a brake on the Z-axis motor to stop it dropping when not under power and i'm pretty sure your 180w motor won't handle the weight of ATC spindle.
Add a second spindle bracket up high on the spindle.
Add ribs on the edge of the Z axis plates. This will add a huge amount to stiffness. (Essentially make them into C channels).
Nowhere on the machine should you have a simple flat plate - everything should be box sections of at all possible, otherwise should have stiffening ribs.