New build with recycled parts on a ridiculous budget 120cm*60cm work area

A dedicated supply is obviously the gold-plated solution but I'll think you'll find that pretty much everyone with a similar machine runs the machine off a single 13A socket. I use a 4-way adaptor for control box, inverter, and PC all going back to a single wall socket. No problem at all. Don't be misled by the inverter rating. That's max output power and it's unlikely that you will be pushing it that hard, if ever. Run the vacuum cleaner off a second 13A socket but loading is fine even if it is the same ring. In other words, you could swap a single 13A for a double and still be ok. Even if not a ring and single socket is on a spur, I believe that that should be good for 20A/5KW total load (but would need double socket).

No allowance for kettle in that, of course! Sure it's only 1KW?

In reality your spindle will never pull 2.2kw on a machine with this level of rigidity... most of the time it will be much lower.

Your stepper motors etc also are incredibly unlikely to all pull peak power at the same instant.

I do exactly as neale said... I have everything running off a dual socket (computer, monitor, compressor on one, CNC on second) and i run my vac from another socket (which just so happens to be on a different ring, but would be fine on same ring).

Obviously if you want to give it a beefier supply then go for it, but it's not necessary imo and doesn't really fit with your cheap as chips goals!

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2. Run a dedicated 32amp 5 wire 3 phase socket from the board (This is what I will do) and then tap 1 of the phases with a junction box to power the machine.

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Is this then in a commercial environment if so.
You have to be careful with running a second 13A socket from the board and make sure it is on the same phase as the other.
I think there are rules to avoid have rings on different phases close together. Reason being is that although each socket would provide 230V there would be around 415V between the two lives from each socket.

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Is this then in a commercial environment if so.
You have to be careful with running a second 13A socket from the board and make sure it is on the same phase as the other.
I think there are rules to avoid have rings on different phases close together. Reason being is that although each socket would provide 230V there would be around 415V between the two lives from each socket.

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It's a commercial environment I have plenty of free space on the fuse board to run a new line in I was going to fit a 3 phase 5 wire 32amp socket then tap one of the phases to a junction box and from there to the machine and to 2 plug sockets. I have an electrician on site so he will do it lol although I have actually done it before and he checked it out and said I did it correct ;) Since everything else on site is 3 phase it makes sense to fit a 3 phase socket and of course future proofing as I see 3 phase in my CNC future lol.

I was told if you tap 1 phase of 3 to get 230v mains you mustn't have a load on the other 2 phases and the load should be balanced over all 3 phases.

The fuse box for the unit is unusually large (Hence loads of empty space) because before my dad bought the place it was Kraft foods and they filled it with industrial refrigerators. He had so much fun ripping out the stainless and weighing it in good old days of cash ;)

I have 10+ 3 phase sockets and at least 4 single phase 16 amp sockets if anyone wants one for free, I always cut them off the machines we scrap if they're still mint and 99% of the machines we scrap were plugged into the wall once when installed and unplugged once when removed for scrapping lol.

I have more issues with recovering the SY cable as my Brother is always stealing that for his fridges but I managed to squirrel away 20m's when no one was looking.

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Obviously if you want to give it a beefier supply then go for it, but it's not necessary imo and doesn't really fit with your cheap as chips goals!

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I have the 3 phase plug, socket (With Isolator) & SY cable (Free of course) so would only need to buy a short length (2m) of 5 wire armoured cabling to the fuse box, luckily where I have the machine the fuse box is the other side of the wall.

My spindle came this morning and when I put it in the spindle mount and weighed them both 6.5kg's add in my z axis and we getting close to 10kg's (Maybe more) on the gantry. So to combat flex I'm toying with pouring 2K epoxy resin into the cavities in the extrusion which I think will increase rigidity considerably whilst being impossible to tell from the outside lol.
Attachment 21890

I may encase the frame and gantry in angle steel but my worry is finding angle steel that's straight! I would avoid using it on the side where the rails or ballscrews are mounted.

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Originally Posted by Neale

A dedicated supply is obviously the gold-plated solution but I'll think you'll find that pretty much everyone with a similar machine runs the machine off a single 13A socket. I use a 4-way adaptor for control box, inverter, and PC all going back to a single wall socket. No problem at all. Don't be misled by the inverter rating. That's max output power and it's unlikely that you will be pushing it that hard, if ever. Run the vacuum cleaner off a second 13A socket but loading is fine even if it is the same ring. In other words, you could swap a single 13A for a double and still be ok. Even if not a ring and single socket is on a spur, I believe that that should be good for 20A/5KW total load (but would need double socket).

No allowance for kettle in that, of course! Sure it's only 1KW?

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Thanks for the advice, this is not in a home so unsure how many sockets are on the ring but if I ever move this to my house this will be a consideration.

I have a caravan kettle, It's single phase but only 750w I just rounded up. It's very annoying lol as it takes ages to boil but it was of course free ;)

I did have a great score today wasn't free in fact cost me £145 4 years ago from ebay.com from Japan but I lost it, it was assumed that it had been binned. I then forgot I bought it lol. Was looking in drawers at work for my missing linear rail and found it was a nice surprise and in my mindset it was free as I had essentially written it off.

A 2nd hand (But mint) THK C3 ground ballscrew with C3 mounts and bearings ~40cm in total length from tip to tip which I think I will use for my Z axis instead. I would have the ballscrew cut down and end machined BUT being C3 I think I would be ruining the accuracy or paying more than the ballscrew is worth to me so I should leave it alone.

Spindle came as well ;)

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I was told if you tap 1 phase of 3 to get 230v mains you mustn't have a load on the other 2 phases and the load should be balanced over all 3 phases.

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This is not true you seem to be contradicting yourself in domestic wiring they only take one phase into the house and the next house would get another phase etc this is so the 3 phases are balanced. The same in a factory the phases need to be balanced as far as possible.

The danger can come in domestic use if a guy runs an extension lead to his neighbours house its possible to get the high voltage in fault conditions

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Originally Posted by Clive S

This is not true you seem to be contradicting yourself in domestic wiring they only take one phase into the house and the next house would get another phase etc this is so the 3 phases are balanced. The same in a factory the phases need to be balanced as far as possible.

The danger can come in domestic use if a guy runs an extension lead to his neighbours house its possible to get the high voltage in fault conditions

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Thanks for the reply, I actually meant to write
"1 phase of 3 to get 230v mains you mustn't have a load on the other 2 phases otherwise the load will be unbalanced over all 3 phases." What they were stressing to me was that it was ok for the load not be balanced if I used only 1 phase but if I used all 3 phases (Say 3 different single phase circuits) then it should be balanced. But I have no idea if I was fed bollocks lol.

I think I am misunderstanding balanced but I'm also repeating what I was told by an electrician. I was only talking from the POV that I have a 3 phase input to a 5 wire socket and I take 1 live, the ground and the earth. Not a home situation if I was doing this at home I'd run 32amp Twin and earth from spare slot on the board and add the correct breaker. I've done this before and it cost me ~£45 last time for the wire and breaker, my house hasn't burnt down yet lol.

I'm not sure I understand how my neighbour balances me because one side house has been empty for a year and the other side they work nights so I would think the 3 phases are not balanced unless balance isn't load which is what I assumed it to be. Also what happens when it doesn't divide by 3? When I was thinking of balance I was thinking it needed to be equal draw on all 3 phases a once which is how 3 phase motors work of course.

I'm not an electrician lol but interested and would like to improve my leccy skills especially as the last electrician I had at home I ended up having to fix his dodgy wiring lol. (Patched my Electric oven cable in the wall with 13amp!) Trust a trader my fucking arse.

I just realised reading your post that I need to check which phase is which in the fuse box before I wire this up I think a volt meter should be the right tool for the job. I'm assuming they put the different phases on different rows.

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Thanks for the reply, I actually meant to write
"1 phase of 3 to get 230v mains you mustn't have a load on the other 2 phases otherwise the load will be unbalanced over all 3 phases."

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You have to remember that it is not just one house but many so there are many on each phase and they will average out.

For three phase to run correctly they must all balance out. (I am not having go)

Regarding the oven I believe there are some that run from a 13A socket these days.

In a domestic environment, each house in the row is connected to one phase in turn. Over a street-full of houses, it probably balances out. Where I live, in a little group of 5 houses, I've no idea how it works! But I guess that averaged across the village, it's OK.

What you should avoid (I'm pretty sure that there are regulations about this) is having two or more different phases available within reach of each other. Not quite sure what the minimum spacing is, but the idea is to avoid anyone connecting themselves across these two phases which will be even more likely to kill than just phase and earth/neutral. Obviously, that doesn't apply when all three phases are being used together, but in that case they all go to the same appliance/tool/whatever.

Kettle sounds like a useful find - I have to walk all the way indoors from the garage to make my coffee!

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Originally Posted by Clive S

You have to remember that it is not just one house but many so there are many on each phase and they will average out.

For three phase to run correctly they must all balance out. (I am not having go)

Regarding the oven I believe there are some that run from a 13A socket these days.

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Not mine lol I have the manual for it recommends a minimum 30amp also the cable I only discovered the wiring because the smell of plastic burning coming from behind my tiles and when I got the melted charded mess out I was glad it was under tiles and not plasterboard lol.

I want to learn Clive so tell me where I'm wrong I need to be educated lol as my teacher said you don't learn anything by being right it's only by being wrong that you learn ;)

I assume that if I only use 1 phase out of 3 then I need not worry about balancing at all? I want to wire the 3 phase socket as it's easier to convince my dad to let me fit the socket if it's 3 phase.

Also I have the 3 phase stuff and I want to buy a 3 phase plasma cutter so it all makes good sense to me if it's safe of course.

This will set me back another week but after extensive talk to someone in the know I've decided to pour epoxy resin inside my aluminium extrusion (Gantry only for now).

Probably this stuff
http://www.mbfg.co.uk/epoxy-resins/p...ble-resin.html

Mixed at this sort of ratio
50% aluminium filler powder
35% Epoxy
15% Carbon fibre powder

Fill these cavities
Attachment 21895

I've found out that epoxy resin generates heat in curing which would cause problems but I will bolt the gantry mount on one end fill the extrusion up leaving another space to bolt the top plate on tight. Then I will put the whole thing in a water bath for overnight to cure evenly.

From discussions with the fibreglass guy it'll be stronger than aluminium but weaker than steel for ~4kg's of weight added to the gantry should make it much more rigid.

Will make the gantry mounts with 25mm ecocast to reflect this, I'm going to have a rectangle milled the size of the extrusion so it's embedded 5mm into the mounting plate when bolted in.

Also getting the aluminium drilled next week so it will bolt together with 10mm A2's and will add in the centre struts.
Attachment 21894

Getting closer just ordered a 1605 ballscrew 250mm with fittings for z axis as not happy with the ballscrews I have (40cm) and had a score on the tool aluminium which has saved me £70 ;)

Local aluminium supplier had a few pieces that were cut too short for the customer which are perfect for me £30 ;)

2* 360mm*150mm 20mm these will be my gantry mounts
1*300mm*120mm 15mm this will be the basis of my Z

Still need to work out what other little bits I need but a score and a 1/2 ;)

Dilemma 25mm supported rail with 4 bearings for the bottom axis or 15mm Original HIWIN with 4 carriages?

I now have the rail and then some lol ;)

Some nutter just bought a lot of rail and 40 carriages lol.

proper linear rail will always win imo... 15mm is a slightly awkward size in some regards but more than strong enough for any loads your machine will impart.

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

proper linear rail will always win imo... 15mm is a slightly awkward size in some regards but more than strong enough for any loads your machine will impart.

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"but more than strong enough for any loads your machine will impart." that's all I need to hear ;)

The big PITA is I need 4mm T nuts like 90 of them lol at £3.60 a pack of 10, gutted because I have a bucket of 6mm T nuts somewhere :(

But now I can do Hiwin for the z axis as well. So Real Hiwin's on the bottom axis and Z and clone Hiwin's on the gantry a significant upgrade from the original plan but need to seriously think about how to build this properly. I'm taking my time but I'm getting there and hopefully with a hell of a lot better than an xcarve/shapeoko at less than their cost ;)

Not sure what to do with the other 32 carriages and rail but when I get my machine working I might just turn them all into Z axis's to flog (Add 1605 ballscrew of course) or maybe make some extra large 3d printers to sell.

Be nice to turn the Hiwin's I don't use into cash but probably keep a spare set in case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

This will set me back another week but after extensive talk to someone in the know I've decided to pour epoxy resin inside my aluminium extrusion (Gantry only for now).

Probably this stuff
http://www.mbfg.co.uk/epoxy-resins/p...ble-resin.html

Mixed at this sort of ratio
50% aluminium filler powder
35% Epoxy
15% Carbon fibre powder

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Nasty stuff... Read the safety instructions before starting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

"The big PITA is I need 4mm T nuts like 90 of them lol at £3.60 a pack of 10, gutted because I have a bucket of 6mm T nuts somewhere :(

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Think I got 200 M5 for about £7 off ali express.

I was looking Lee but 30-40 days shipping time is just a little too long but would cost me ~£10 now for 100 M4 45 series T nuts KJN will cost ~£30 but I can pick up today (KJN is 4 miles from my work). I need to go KJN anyway to cut some more extrusion for the bed and they are going to drill/counterbore the extrusion I'm making the frame from. So I can bolt it together rather than use corners which is cheaper and stronger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

I was looking Lee but 30-40 days shipping time is just a little too long but would cost me ~£10 now for 100 M4 45 series T nuts KJN will cost ~£30 but I can pick up today (KJN is 4 miles from my work). I need to go KJN anyway to cut some more extrusion for the bed and they are going to drill/counterbore the extrusion I'm making the frame from. So I can bolt it together rather than use corners which is cheaper and stronger.

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Humm sounds good plan, I remember thinking at the time I should order an assortment and bang them on ebay, the price for T nuts is ridiculous in this country/online.

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Humm sounds good plan, I remember thinking at the time I should order an assortment and bang them on ebay, the price for T nuts is ridiculous in this country/online.

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When I finally finish my build I'm going to order 100 of each type for the 45 series extrusion for stock so I won't ever have to pay stupid prices again lol.

When I finish my machine I will have used nearly all my extrusion up so need to go on a pikey mission round the scrap yards to see what I can find ;)

Or just buy that machine I linked to if you don't first lol.

Right bought a 13pcs collet set so I suppose I ought to get some endmills ordered open to suggestions, I want to be able to cut MDF accurately and I want some aluminium millers.

I do know I will need ballnose end mill at least, I most confused on the size I should buy.

Almost ready to have the aluminium plates made was going to send cad models and discovered that my clone rail has HR15 blocks not HG15 blocks!

The difference is probably about 8mm in mounting height lol going to need to take some accurate measurement s and rethink the gantry as this is where the HR15 is going.

the other choice is move some HG carriages across but worried the clone rail will be made of crap steel and proper HG carriages will wear it prematurely so think maybe I should stick with the original carriages for the clone rail.

Once I have the mounts in pace I can finally start getting movement on the XY&Z axis ;)

I may never have got on with my Prusa Mendel 3d printer but I could never have had even a chance at building this without it ;)

Attachment 22213

Blue bits are aluminum plate to mount everything together, been through 3 different designs to solve the 15mm HIWIN/Ballscrew problem but happy with this one.

Need to get some wiring for the stepper motor's as cables are far too short and need to be extended will something like this suffice?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/time-round...FSIS0wodF9IDHA

All my Nema 23's are 4 wire.

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

Need to get some wiring for the stepper motor's as cables are far too short and need to be extended will something like this suffice?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/time-round...FSIS0wodF9IDHA

All my Nema 23's are 4 wire.

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Something like this would be better 4 core CY cable 1mm. https://www.cse-distributors.co.uk/c...creened-cable/

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Something like this would be better 4 core CY cable 1mm. https://www.cse-distributors.co.uk/c...creened-cable/

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How flexible is the CY cable? Will it be ok in energy chain? Thinking gantry and Z axis obviously. Seems cheap enough can get locally for £2.50 a metre (plus the dreaded) only need 6m's as max.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

How flexible is the CY cable? Will it be ok in energy chain? Thinking gantry and Z axis obviously. Seems cheap enough can get locally for £2.50 a metre (plus the dreaded) only need 6m's as max.

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No problem energy chain has been used many time by a lot of guys on here. The idea is to ground the screen and one end (control box) only.

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Originally Posted by Clive S

No problem energy chain has been used many time by a lot of guys on here. The idea is to ground the screen and one end (control box) only.

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Thanks for the reply, when it comes to the spindle (I have a 2.2kw) should I use 2.5mm SY cable?

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

Thanks for the reply, when it comes to the spindle (I have a 2.2kw) should I use 2.5mm SY cable?

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I use 1.5mm 4 core CY again just ground the screen at the vfd end

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Originally Posted by Clive S

I use 1.5mm 4 core CY again just ground the screen at the vfd end

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The screen is the protective metal sleeve? Do I simply run it to the ground for the power in to the VFD?

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

The screen is the protective metal sleeve? Do I simply run it to the ground for the power in to the VFD?

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Connect the screen to the mains earth connection in the vfd

Firm I was working with has gone bankrupt :( so I now no longer have a need for the router BUT of course I'm going to finish it and then work out what the hell I will do with it lol. Since I learnt to cad having a router has been on my bucket list so not upset about building it but gutted on losing the work for it.

Frame has finally gone to be cut and drilled should get back tomorrow and can start building up and start fitting the HIWIN's.

Shame, but there will always be other opportunities in the future if you keep your eyes open I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Shame, but there will always be other opportunities in the future if you keep your eyes open I'm sure.

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I already have 1 job for it but unfortunately unpaid lol, making an arcade table ('80's style) for my best mates Bday as a surprise he wrote a famous(ish) game and is 40 this year so we're making him a cabinet with graphics done in the style of the game he wrote. I guarantee most of you have played this game at least a little bit ;)

Unfortunately that will cost me money not make it lol but will be interesting project, making considerable mods to the standard table design so it will have a built in projector as well as a 23" LCD screen and 4 joystick inputs. I have till Mid October to finish the cabinet, will be MDF and Vinyl wrapped. Luckily his GF and his mum are putting 1/3 into the cost as it's going to cost over £500 to build lol. I will measure a real 1980's Pacman table and do my own design based on the measurements.

If I built a decent positive pressure vacuum former (Next project) I can keep the machine busy for a small scale prototyping firm a friend runs but I need to make sure the quality is there. Luckily the molds are MDF normally so the stresses are less.

Found a decent arcade table model on grabcad based on a pacman table will use it a reference to redraw my table ;)

I'm going to add another 2 joysticks so there is 4.
Attachment 22237

Sent my frame to be cut & drilled and got T nuts for fittings the Hiwin cost £100, can't wait to get it back now and see how it all goes together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

This will set me back another week but after extensive talk to someone in the know I've decided to pour epoxy resin inside my aluminium extrusion (Gantry only for now).

Probably this stuff
http://www.mbfg.co.uk/epoxy-resins/p...ble-resin.html

Mixed at this sort of ratio
50% aluminium filler powder
35% Epoxy
15% Carbon fibre powder

Fill these cavities
Attachment 21895

I've found out that epoxy resin generates heat in curing which would cause problems but I will bolt the gantry mount on one end fill the extrusion up leaving another space to bolt the top plate on tight. Then I will put the whole thing in a water bath for overnight to cure evenly.

From discussions with the fibreglass guy it'll be stronger than aluminium but weaker than steel for ~4kg's of weight added to the gantry should make it much more rigid.

Will make the gantry mounts with 25mm ecocast to reflect this, I'm going to have a rectangle milled the size of the extrusion so it's embedded 5mm into the mounting plate when bolted in.

Also getting the aluminium drilled next week so it will bolt together with 10mm A2's and will add in the centre struts.
Attachment 21894

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Not sure if you've done this yet, but it won't make you're extrusion more rigid, or stronger, unless you try to crush it.

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Originally Posted by Ger21

Not sure if you've done this yet, but it won't make you're extrusion more rigid, or stronger, unless you try to crush it.

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Hi Ger21, I'm the same person who posted on cnczone I remember your comments, since then I changed the design to use 3 pieces of extrusion 2 4545 and 1 4590 profile bolted in a straight vertical line they are all the heavy duty profiles and I am embedding the extrusion 5mm into the gantry mounts both sides (Plates are 20mm thick).

I won't epoxy the gantry but I might fill the 4590 extrusion cavity (This is a large one 4l's in volume) with sand on advice from some crazy Germans ;) Who claim it can have a big effect on reducing vibrations.

On the topic of filling the extruded section with resin, reinforced or otherwise, has anyone got views or experience of lining extrusions with carbon fibre?

Obviously this could not apply to the sections above but I am thinking of say RH Al or Fe 120x60x3, 100x50x3 being used for the Y gantry.

I understand the logic of adding weight to kill vibration but this weight has to be accelerated and decelerated.

With a layer or two of carbon/kevlar fibre cloth and resin applied to the internal surface of the RH and cured, could this provide an element of vibration reduction whilst reducing the tendency of the Y gantry to deflect under the torsional load caused by heavy cutting in X?

Just a thought!!