looking for a good 3d printer

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Originally Posted by A_Camera

Some of the cheap ones are not even plastic, but thin plywood.

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Nothing wrong with a I3 Graber ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dUQHSLe5iY

I bought the frame for one because they look good especially when varnished.

They print very well mate has had one a few years working many hours day and still produces excellent prints.

most grabers are 6mm ply but if you have a router working you can easily cut a 12mm version with minor alterations in cad.

When you start worrying too much about rigidity in the printer then you need to ditch the shit 8mm smooth rod lol and go hiwin route. But for home printer stupid overkill.

Nearly all Prusa I3 based builds I've come across print well it's a good design there probably better stuff kicking around now but Prusa I3 printers are certainly not a bad choice.

I've seen Acrylic, aluminium & ply builds and the box frame works just as well made with a table saw lol.

I used a cheap clone one while I was away and it was a pain in the butt trying to get the bed level and messing about with setting and glue stick and lifting prints and ...........

when I got back I ordered the genuine prusa and within 10 min of turning it on it was printing faultless prints. if you put a price on your time the extra cost of the genuine will pay for it self almost instantly and with a lot less stress plus you get a 250 x 210 x 200 actual build area a proper Rambo and e3d extruder. down load slic3r and all the settings are all ready tweaked by prusa and can go down to 0.05 layer hight

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

When you start worrying too much about rigidity in the printer then you need to ditch the shit 8mm smooth rod lol and go hiwin route. But for home printer stupid overkill.

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Understanding the engineering and physics involved will show the elegance of the Prusa design, this is that the 8mm unsupported rods are not loaded dynamically the way they would be in a router or mill, the carriage acceleration loads are transferred by the drive belts, motors and motor mounts to the frame with the rails simply supporting carriage weight.
Failure to understand this might lead to over engineering the rails and under engineering the frame when it is the frame which supplies the required rigidity for this style of machine, if you sensibly move to a tube feed system with the reel off the machine the only significant loads experienced by the 6mm Aluminium plate upper frame are in the + & - X travel directions where a planar frame performs extremely well indeed.

- Nick

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

Nothing wrong with a I3 Graber ;)

I bought the frame for one because they look good especially when varnished.

They print very well mate has had one a few years working many hours day and still produces excellent prints.

most grabers are 6mm ply but if you have a router working you can easily cut a 12mm version with minor alterations in cad.

When you start worrying too much about rigidity in the printer then you need to ditch the shit 8mm smooth rod lol and go hiwin route. But for home printer stupid overkill.

Nearly all Prusa I3 based builds I've come across print well it's a good design there probably better stuff kicking around now but Prusa I3 printers are certainly not a bad choice.

I've seen Acrylic, aluminium & ply builds and the box frame works just as well made with a table saw lol.

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I have no doubt that it can be made to work, especially for printing toys, but I was referring to the thin simple designs. The one you show is really large and is more like a CNC router than a 3D printer, at least as far as the base and the beam is concerned. Also those rods look more rigid, something like 12mm (1/2") in diameter, not just 8mm. Then again, it depends on what you want to use it for. Personally I see no reason for using wood or anything similar, but I know some people disagree.

I think it must be perspective because it's 8mm smooth rod, standard prusa build size.

I have the same printer it's not particularly big I had a mendel and just bought the ply frame and swapped the parts over.

Was a massive upgrade from the original mendel lol.

This was the mendel
Attachment 22343

One of the early FDM 3d printers for the home

Original prusa would have been the kill with Hiwin bearings and sturdier bed. I dont believe square supported bearings are overkill for a printer, i believe they are a must for a machine that moves non stop. My Prusa growlingly agrees from the garage. My wife will tell you that too.

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Originally Posted by Ross77

The Cetus3d looks really good but resisting the urge to say "I have all the parts to build that...."

the only down side is that it will only do PLA. Do you guys use nylon much or is it really difficult to do the engineering plastics?

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In my personal opinion, a heated bed is a huge plus. I'm not a big fan of ABS but there's a cornucopia of options out there and most are much easier with a heated bed.

My personal favourite material for functional parts is XT-CF20 but it's a bit of a pain in some ways. Simply the best material I've ever used for strength, layer adhesion and lack of warp. As a cheaper option for normal use I am getting on very well with e3d's edge.

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Originally Posted by magicniner

Understanding the engineering and physics involved will show the elegance of the Prusa design, this is that the 8mm unsupported rods are not loaded dynamically the way they would be in a router or mill, the carriage acceleration loads are transferred by the drive belts, motors and motor mounts to the frame with the rails simply supporting carriage weight.
Failure to understand this might lead to over engineering the rails and under engineering the frame when it is the frame which supplies the required rigidity for this style of machine, if you sensibly move to a tube feed system with the reel off the machine the only significant loads experienced by the 6mm Aluminium plate upper frame are in the + & - X travel directions where a planar frame performs extremely well indeed.

- Nick

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I bought the Wanhao 4DS because of the steel frame, everything else is Makerbot, which has been cloned a lot, so it must have some plus points. The filament reels are on the frame, tube fed to the extruders. The machine has a heated base, which I have a borosilicate plate on. I only print in ABS and on glass I find a thin wash of ABS solution in DMK (acetone ) or MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) gives me good adhesion and easy separation when the bed cools. The other thing it has is a hood to maintain the temperature in the enclosure, which reduces (but not always eliminates) corner lifting. There was mention of a £259 Makerbot clone, and if this has a steel frame, I would consider it a good buy, if I were looking for a 3D printer.

I haven't seen many Hiwin railed machines, probably for a good reason :peaceful:

Cheers,

Rob

Thanks for all the advice, starting to get an idea of what I need. certainly lots of choice.

Is there any advantage of a 24v system? I'm assuming lower current so less stress on the heater and faster stepper motors?

Thanks again for all the input

24v better all round. My printer was originally 12v, they later changed newer models over to 24v and I upgraded - steppers happier, bed heats up much faster, hot end a bit faster.

Ok so Im coming to the conclusion that I will have to build one as Id probably end up rebuilding whatever I can buy.

If i was going to buy one I think the Wanhao I3 plus looks the best as it is 24v and touch screen, that said people still upgrade the extruder and have to brace the gantry to improve stability.

Ive had a dig around and I have all the mechanical bits to make a 500x300x200 machine. x and y belt driven and z on 4mm pitch lead screws. seems a no brainer as then I can get the best electrics to make it work.

Probably go for a 24v system and 32bit controller to get the best resolution

E3d aero extruder and hot end looks good quality and light weight

Any recommendations for the contoller and heat bed?

I'd look at a rapsiberry pi solution, cheap as chips and can add 4" colour touch screen for a £10

As for 24v
The difference you will notice giving the nema's 24v is not like with nema 23's lol, you'll get 30% more torque but in the real world it will make almost no difference.

But the heated bed you will notice the difference I would just get a cheap mk3 aluminium heated bed, they work well at 24v and heat up in less than 2 mins, at 12v it can take over 10 mins! If you're only printing PLA I find at 12v the bed will heat to 60c in a couple of mins but to get to 110c at 12v takes forever! So 24v makes much more difference when printing ABS.

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

I'd look at a rapsiberry pi solution, cheap as chips and can add 4" colour touch screen for a £10

As for 24v
The difference you will notice giving the nema's 24v is not like with nema 23's lol, you'll get 30% more torque but in the real world it will make almost no difference.

But the heated bed you will notice the difference I would just get a cheap mk3 aluminium heated bed, they work well at 24v and heat up in less than 2 mins, at 12v it can take over 10 mins! If you're only printing PLA I find at 12v the bed will heat to 60c in a couple of mins but to get to 110c at 12v takes forever! So 24v makes much more difference when printing ABS.

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The higher voltage on the steppers is mainly for speed not the torque. I think it makes a difference there.

I've just upgraded to a Mk3 bed on a 12v printer and although it's not quick it's not as slow as some have experienced.
The Mk3 bed has two 12v heater circuits, connect them in parallel and it runs on 12v, connect them in series and it runs on 24v but in either case each circuit only gets 12v, for heating the problem is not the voltage it's the voltage drop experienced with inadequate power supplies often shipped with basic 12v machines.
I am planning to upgrade a separate bed heater PSU with a torroidal transformer, a rectifier, a bit of smoothing and a DC-DC solid state relay.
I have a larger format 3D printer build in the pipeline for which I've decided to use 240v Silicone heater pads using a solid state relay to interface with the control board's standard heater output.

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Originally Posted by A_Camera

The higher voltage on the steppers is mainly for speed not the torque. I think it makes a difference there.

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I run my printer at 24v I never noticed a difference in print speed when I upgraded from 12v but I did notice the heated bed, maybe it makes more a difference with a 32bit controller (I modded a ramps board to 24v)

The nema's do seem a little quieter at 24v.

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I'd look at a rapsiberry pi solution, cheap as chips and can add 4" colour touch screen for a £10

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Ive been looking for the Pi but cant find many options, Any specific ones you know of?

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As for 24v, The difference you will notice giving the nema's 24v is not like with nema 23's lol, you'll get 30% more torque but in the real world it will make almost no difference.

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if i make the machine then the motors will be nema 23-24s, might have to go for separate drives any way.

I like the look of the Duet as its all in one but could be an issue if a section stops working. At least separates can be replaced

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Originally Posted by Ross77

Ive been looking for the Pi but cant find many options, Any specific ones you know of?


if i make the machine then the motors will be nema 23-24s, might have to go for separate drives any way.

I like the look of the Duet as its all in one but could be an issue if a section stops working. At least separates can be replaced

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Nema 23's for a 3d printer unless it's crazy over sized is probably too much like you don't want to use nema 34's on smaller routers, I built my printer with 0.44nm nema 17's (This is at the high end) £10 each from Uk seller and they can whip along at a very fast rate I run my machine a lot slower than I could because I only print occasionally so print time is irrelevant to me and I've found slower speeds are more forgiving.

I only print ABS which is a lot more hassle than PLA which is a joy in comparison.

nema23 I would also say are overkill for pretty much any 3d printer, except maybe if you are lifting a fairly heavy solid bed - I could see the Z-axis benefiting there. If you have spare nema23's lying around anyway then of course no reason not to use them.

I was actually toying with the idea of a servo driven 3d printer using small 100w servos or similar for X and Y, could be a fun experiment if I can find some cheap enough.

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Originally Posted by Ross77

Ive been looking for the Pi but cant find many options, Any specific ones you know of?


if i make the machine then the motors will be nema 23-24s, might have to go for separate drives any way.

I like the look of the Duet as its all in one but could be an issue if a section stops working. At least separates can be replaced

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I use a raspberry pi with the official 7" touchscreen and octoprint as my printer's control interface. Very neat solution - also allows a webcam feed and remote access.

astroprint is another good print server, I think they are adding easier touchscreen support. Less technical than octoprint but looks easy to use and well presented.

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Nema 23's for a 3d printer unless it's crazy over sized is probably too much like you don't want to use nema 34's on smaller routers

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Yes, sorry I meant to say for the z-axis, I have a pair of complete slide/lead screw assemblies. the x,y will be belt driven so plenty fast enough.

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I use a raspberry pi with the official 7" touchscreen and octoprint as my printer's control interface. Very neat solution - also allows a webcam feed and remote access.

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Is the PI just running the printers driver or does it control the steppers and heating mosfets direct?

guessing i will still need a duet or RAMPs with the PI

In my setup it's just acting as the computer that interfaces with the ramps board through USB.

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

In my setup it's just acting as the computer that interfaces with the ramps board through USB.

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I use a similar setup on my Hictop 3DP-12 (Prusa clone with aluminium extrusion frame) - it has a great benefit of being able to run the Pi with Octoprint remotely across my LAN and I use a Pi camera, which is integrated to keep an eye on the print whilst its doing it. So that's PC in office with web browser interface---->Pi with Octoprint---->Ramps based control board from Hictop running Marlin firmware----->3DPrinter.

I've just finished upgrading the printer this weekend with a filament sensor, although I struggled with using the firmware's M600 filament change routine, which kept timing out Octoprint, so rolled my own GCode to emulate it without the timeout issues.

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In my setup it's just acting as the computer that interfaces with the ramps board through USB.

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are you using the standard Ramps or the 32 bit Radds board?

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>Pi with Octoprint---->Ramps based control board from Hictop running Marlin firmware----->3DPrinter.

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have you got any wiring diagrams for that set up?

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Originally Posted by Ross77

are you using the standard Ramps or the 32 bit Radds board?



have you got any wiring diagrams for that set up?

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Not as such - as with Zeeflyboy the Pi is connected to the Ramps board via a short USB cable and the Ramp board uses 4 wire stepper wiring, which is likely the same as you would use for a CNC router.

The board is shown here (scroll down a bit for the schematic): https://www.hic3dprinter.com/collect...e-mother-board

I mounted my Pi onto the printer by using a 3D printed case (shameless channel plug) and I have my property flood wired for CAT5e so it just becomes another device on it accessible from any PC/tablet etc. with a browser:

https://youtu.be/95eNVlc3N1w

Wow, i would never do that :hysterical: My printer prints non stop and why i would need to spend time watching its whats its doing, as if all is setup right it works flawlessly. last time i had a crash was when filament went from 1.75 to 2.5 at almost end of bobin...

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

Wow, i would never do that :hysterical: My printer prints non stop and why i would need to spend time watching its whats its doing, as if all is setup right it works flawlessly. last time i had a crash was when filament went from 1.75 to 2.5 at almost end of bobin...

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What materials do you normally print with? I've had trouble with larger parts and ABS lifting up at the corners, anything that's over 6cm tall has caused me problems in the end I have to encase the printer to get it to print larger parts (I do this with a cardboard box lol) but when my router works going to build this enclosure to add to my printer because it looks nice lol.

https://youtu.be/wt7bQXyLSL4

Never had an issue with PLA found it very easy to print if you have a fan blowing over the part correctly obviously I don't use the fan with ABS because it shrinks one of it's design features (So it drops out the injection molds easier).

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Not as such - as with Zeeflyboy the Pi is connected to the Ramps board via a short USB cable and the Ramp board uses 4 wire stepper wiring, which is likely the same as you would use for a CNC router.

The board is shown here (scroll down a bit for the schematic): https://www.hic3dprinter.com/collect...e-mother-board

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Ah that makes sense now. The ramps I was looking at didn't have usb, only a shield for the Aurduino.

More options to look for now, thanks

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

Wow, i would never do that :hysterical: My printer prints non stop and why i would need to spend time watching its whats its doing, as if all is setup right it works flawlessly. last time i had a crash was when filament went from 1.75 to 2.5 at almost end of bobin...

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Well I record the timelapse for one reason. The other is my printer is at the other end of my property and occasionally the "filament out" sensor trips out when it shouldn't. I can glance up at one of the bank of monitors in my office and tell what's up and decide whether to make the trek down there or just hit the resume button. I would have thought anyone with an interest in CNC would have also been interested in maximising automation?

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

What materials do you normally print with? I've had trouble with larger parts and ABS lifting up at the corners, anything that's over 6cm tall has caused me problems in the end I have to encase the printer to get it to print larger parts (I do this with a cardboard box lol) but when my router works going to build this enclosure to add to my printer because it looks nice lol.

https://youtu.be/wt7bQXyLSL4

Never had an issue with PLA found it very easy to print if you have a fan blowing over the part correctly obviously I don't use the fan with ABS because it shrinks one of it's design features (So it drops out the injection molds easier).

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I print ABS in an enclosure, rafts and supports always. Plus some extra coins that help against lifting. PLA same. Nowadays i use mainly PETG for functional parts/ up to 70C/ .

Whatever they tell you each one of the materials lifts, shrinks and so on. I print the dust shoe from my signature and there is not even one material that it will print ok due to the specific shape, if i did not knew how to counter effect that. All else is marketing.
See example below of the coins, how i situate them, or all hacks up...

3d printing makes a lot of sense after the CNC and once you understand what is happening and solve the common beginner problems, its easy to become an expert when you are using your brain and figuring stuff. But on Facegroup groups and so i was tired of repeating the steps to understand all, nobody cared. So i dont visit them now.


Attachment 22428

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

Whatever they tell you each one of the materials lifts, shrinks and so on. I print the dust shoe from my signature and there is not even one material that it will print ok due to the specific shape, if i did not knew how to counter effect that. All else is marketing.

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XT-CF20 and Carbonfil (I can't tell much difference between the two in how they print or the end results) are the only materials I've ever used that literally just don't seem to suffer from any warping even on very large parts... very dimensionally stable stuff, excellent overhang ability and very strong layer adhesion.

Easy enough to print with, but you have to used hardened steel nozzles as they destroy brass or even normal steel ones very quickly. I also had a problem with it sticking to the nozzle and building up until finally a big blob gets stuck on the part and potentially ruins the entire print... I never managed to get rid of that entirely and prints would need frequent babysitting with a pair of needle nose tweezers to de-blob the extruder nozzle, a massive pain in the arse. I intended to experiment with a nozzle wipe action on each layer change at some point using a silicon wiper to see if it could address the babysitting issue, but haven't got around to it yet to see if it works.

Due to that I've switched over mainly now to Edge for most stuff, doesn't hurt that it's cheaper too. It is a lot better than ABS in regards to warping, but not as good as the two I mention above.

I also use a print-bite bed and that stuff is bloody brilliant. I've printed ABS, PLA, Edge (a PET type plastic iirc), XT-CF20, Carbonfil and ninjaflex on it. Stuff sticks very well when heated and releases easily enough when it's cooled a bit... no more messing around with tape/slurry/spray etc. That is one of the best things I've ever bought for the printer.

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I also use a print-bite bed and that stuff is bloody brilliant

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Looks like they are out of stock! What would be the best make up for a bed if starting from scratch? Ali plate - heater - glass - print bite ?

Best is probably debatable.

Personally I just have heater/alu plate/print bite. Its nice and light (my printer moves the bed for Y axis so lighter the better really), good heat transfer and quick to warm up.

If you want a removable bed then of course you need another layer using something flat. Personally I'd probably use a thin steel plate and use high temperature magnets to retain it.

I print onto Kapton tape or straight on to a mirror with ABS juice (Acetone and ABS dissolved together). Since I rebuilt my printer and now it's level I rarely have one that doesn't stick to the bed. At least for me 99% of sticking to bed problems were to do with the nozzle being too high or too low.

If I got another one whatever I bought/built I would make sure the Z axis has a contactless solution for setting the Z height. Inductive probe works well as long as you have an aluminium heated bed I use an 8mm probe and it will sense the aluminium bed through the mirror glass which is nice. Optical end stops are good too and hall effect switches. I found microswitchs unreliable for the Z axis.

Never ever use stainless for a print bed stainless has very poor heat conductivity. Tooling aluminium is the best choice for a bed because it's light and has excellent heat conductivity that's why they make heat sinks out of it. The super flat is just a bonus.

Desertboy, so you mean that the inductive sensor will sense the aluminium table? I thought it only senses magnetic material. Also, how thick is your table?

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Originally Posted by A_Camera

Desertboy, so you mean that the inductive sensor will sense the aluminium table? I thought it only senses magnetic material. Also, how thick is your table?

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Yes they will but you need the 8mm one

I am always wary about axial sensing with inductive sensors, after crushing one. The coil at the end is quite delicate, even though it has a plastic shield.

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Yes they will but you need the 8mm one

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Yes the 4mm doesn't sense through the mirror and you also need to feed it 12v so if you have ramps you will need to wire 2 resistors to drop the output to 5v otherwise you fry the Arduino.

I was thinking about releasing the designs to my printer, i had planned to build and sell these, but with so many cheap units flooding the market i decided it was probably not worth it, if anyone is interested i will go to the effort of updating the BOM's and finishing the documentation.

Cronos-FDM.uk

Thanks

Alex

Inspired by this thread, and on a bit of a rush of blood, i decided to buy a Wanhao Duplicator i3 Plus.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wanhao-I3-...72.m2749.l2649
It arrived yesterday :-)

I'm a total 3d print noob, so the reasons i went for this particular one are:

• Was mentioned as a good choice in this thread.
• Price, £379.
• Generally positive reviews on internet & You Tube.

Overall I'm very impressed, for the money.
As I had already watched quite a few YouTube guides, assembly & setup was a breeze.
It took me about 45 mins from the box coming through the door to starting my first print. (the 'ok' hand that comes on the SD card)
The print quality is pretty good. Again i'm more than happy with it for the money paid.

I've printed a lens cap & gimbal mount for my camera using STL files downloaded from the internet(Thingiverse) and then used Cura to generate the G-Code
It was all relatively straightforward & again very happy with results

Next step is to try some of my own stuff drawn in Fusion 360.

It's worth pointing out that I have never even seen a 3d printer 'in the flesh' before this one, so don't take my impressions as worth much. I don't have anything to compare to!

The photo's are of my first few prints. They look better in real life than in the photos! (The white plastic doesn't seem to photograph very well)

I'm stoked :thumsup:
Cheers

Attachment 22444Attachment 22442Attachment 22443

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Inspired by this thread, and on a bit of a rush of blood, i decided to buy a Wanhao Duplicator i3 Plus.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wanhao-I3-...72.m2749.l2649
It arrived yesterday :-

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Nice one, Kind of wishing I had just bought one now...