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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi downloading fusion 360 today will post soon how I get on. Would a build in 10mm X 100mm steel be strong enough if I get stuck on cost of aluminium there are plenty of cheap stick welders about.
Albert
if you are going to go steel route then look for 4 or 5mm wall box section 50mm will work but 60 or 80mm better. Make the base from box section with rails sat on the top face of steel and make the gantry from profile, I suggest using the "L" shape layout of profile as it gives good strength(Just search the forum you'll see it used often). To raise the gantry use vertical pieces of profile that bolt into the lower piece of gantry profile.
This will be a simple weld up and easy to build.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi just tried to download fusion 360 but have major problems my Mac will not update past 10.11 and fusion 360 needs 10.13 or newer so looks like a new pc that is going to hit my budget till end of the year
So depressed don't know which way to go carry on with build or stop build till next year and learn 360 or carry on with build.
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi just tried to download fusion 360 but have major problems my Mac will not update past 10.11 and fusion 360 needs 10.13 or newer so looks like a new pc that is going to hit my budget till end of the year
So depressed don't know which way to go carry on with build or stop build till next year and learn 360 or carry on with build.
Albert
Don't let this depress you because it will be a good thing.?
Firstly you'll need a PC anyway to run the machine because I don't think there are many controllers that run on Mac.
Second not only will it give you time to learn F360 but more importantly it will give you time to research the design and ask any questions you have in this thread.
Rushing to build before your ready never works out good, just like buying parts without knowing what's needed, and if I'm honest your not ready to build because your knowledge hasn't built up yet and we can only help so much.
Do the research by looking at other designs and threads, ask the questions and your design will evolve in front of you. Then you'll be ready to build and start Buying or building up what's needed with confidence.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Albert,
I agree with Dean completely. There's so much to learn and in several different areas of subject matter all at once that deciding to postpone building anything until you've gained more knowledge is a sensible way forward, not in any way a failure. Once you do start building you'll be more confident that the choices you make are the right ones.
Having to move from Mac to PC is annoying but it sounds like you have little choice on that one. Learning F360 will keep you out of mischief for a while anyway.
The build logs on this site are a wealth of knowledge on different approaches to how you can build a machine, the aluminium v steel choice for the base frame being a big decision you will need to make. The aluminium you already have may still be used in the gantry. Don't be too daunted by the very smart appearance of some of the results on the forum. If the pieces are straight and flat and the holes are in the right places then the rest of it is largely cosmetic!
I was a bit daunted at trying to weld but for me in the wilds of Western Australia the cost of aluminium is prohibitive and the choice was made by my wallet. However the purchase of a cheap welder means I now have a very useful tool that can be used for many other projects as well and I'm glad I took that route. It's actually a lot easier than you think to make a joint that works, as long as you aren't expecting to build anything seriously structural like a road bridge or a grain silo.
Kit
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Just to repeat a little of what is said above - Forget driving the machine from the Mac - I'm a long term Mac user and detest vehemently windows, but I've admitted defeat and use Windows just to drive UCCNC for my mills. I tried LinuxCNC for the Lathe but wouldn't recommend that learning-cliff-face to anyone. But nada for Mac. That said, you don't need a particularly powerful desktop to run either Mach3 or UCCNC - I have a couple of old C2D (£40) desktops, though preferred an i5 (cost £60, eBay) for more responsiveness. An i5 will run F360 perfectly well (though GFX card helps a lot).
F360 requires 10.13 or higher?, damn, that's a useful warning - I'm stuck on 10.13 on my 4,1 (flashed 5,1) Mac Pro - so the writing is on the wall for me for that one.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi I have been doing so research and found some people use what they call epoxy granite to fill there box section and profiles. From what I can gather it is a mix of epoxy and fine sand. They say it helps limit vibration is this true.
Also seen references to epoxy leveling is this to get the cutting table level.
On the pc front should have a computer by the end of the month
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Epoxy leveling is used to get the rails on a flat surface and in the same plane. Ussualy only done on welded steel frames which will suffer some distortion due to the heat of welding. Leveling the cuting table is done by skimming the surface with the machine itself. Several build logs have descriptions of the method, some more sucesful than others. I'm sure you'll get plenty of deatiled instructions from those members with experience if and when the time comes.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
In the UK epoxy isn't a cheap material and larger section steel would probably beat it on cost.Unlike Doddy,I used LinuxCNC for my home made router and found it fairly painless,but then I have had a version of Linux on at least one computer since 2006.Any control system is going to need you to assign functions to connections on breakout boards or similar.If you wanted to be a bit more adventurous with the CAD/CAM side of things there is a Mac version of Freecad and it comes with a variety of post processors which can be used with the Path workbench to generate the Gcode for the machine.It isn't the most intuitive system and the documentation doesn't move forward as fast as the capabilities.This youtube video shows a little of what can be achieved and at zero financial cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWFC17MIfOE
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi just wondering as I will cut hardwood on this machine if I drop the spec to only cut hardwood can I make the machine cheaper. What thickness aluminium plate would I require. Also thinking of z axis design would flat linear rails be better than supported rails as this would bring the spindle motor closer to the y axis. Supported rails require 50mm to fit in
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
I agree with routerdriver about LinuxCNC. If you're building a basic machine then it's easy to install and set up using the included wizards. No delving into the depths of Linux complexity at all.
If you have not bought any rails already then I think most people here would advise using the Hi-Win style linear guide rails in 15mm or 20mm sizes rather than supported round rails because of their greater rigidity but they are more expensive. This link shows the sort of thing.
https://bstmotion.aliexpress.com/sto...d_324926.1_2_4
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi I have the supported rails already but I am not sure if z axis should be as close to the gantry of y axis or not
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kitwn
I agree with routerdriver about LinuxCNC. If you're building a basic machine then it's easy to install and set up using the included wizards. No delving into the depths of Linux complexity at all.
I agree - but then the line between basic and ...not-basic can be particularly difficult with LinuxCNC for a novice to understand. Part of the reason I squint at it hard is understanding the point beyond which you abandon the wizards and take responsibility for the management/maintenance of your configuration files. To the uninitiated that's a whole lot of pain to research to get correct, not to mention having to crank out home-built HAL components (I've a sleepy memory of coding a particular logic component to support a push-On/Off & Reset moding of an illuminated push-button and .. something else (too tired, cold to go to the shed to confirm) that you hack-and-restart, and repeat. That, and the whole GTK/Glade options to add to the screen-set (which is poor, as stock) and the quirkiness of not being able to manually traverse axis (and from memory that also impacts the MPGs/encoders) when on the MDI page... and don't get me started on the GUI stealing HMI events when running Andy Pugh's lathe macro set.
What I'm trying to say is it's less polished than other control software. And for a novice it is a steep learning curve. I stand behind not recommending it as an entry-point to CNC.
edit: Aha, HAL components - the aforementioned Push button (resettable toggle), check-set-for-n-cycles (to determine a stable spindle-at-speed), a resettable run/pause/stop control (together with driving LED status for each state) and.... something else that I forget again. You could do the above with combinational logic, but that just makes your HAL file brutal.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doddy
I agree - but then the line between basic and ...not-basic can be particularly difficult with LinuxCNC for a novice to understand. Part of the reason I squint at it hard is understanding the point beyond which you abandon the wizards and take responsibility for the management/maintenance of your configuration files.
Well never thought I'd say this about Linux CNC and it's hard to cough up the words.!! . . . But having recently setup a Plasma machine with THC and Mesa cards which is a fair bit beyond basic I realised that on a Basic level ie: Using the wizards that setting up a basic router, basic being motors, E-stop, limits and homes with spindle speed control and even dual axis homing is no more difficult than any other software even for a complete novice.
BUT I agree with you Doddy that ounce you want to go beyond that then it gets very deep and can be frustrating as hell when you have to dive into the Hal and Ini files and a bit of Python etc'.
It's very different to other control software in how it works internally and not for the faint hearted when you get into the Hal, personally I struggled for a while until it clicked but you have to remember I'm very experienced with CNC and macro writing etc. and now it makes much more sense, but for a complete newbie with no experience then it's going to be a huge task for anything past basic which the wizards don't provide, of which there are many things which I consider basic that the wizards don't provide and should ie: DE-bounce.
To apply DE-bounce to a pin requires you dive into Hal and code it.! In any other control software that would be tick box at the time of setting the pins. It's these little things missing from the wizards that let Linux CNC down IMO for the more novice users.
However, the power it puts in your hands is impressive when you get into the Hal etc, esp with Mesa cards as virtually anything is possible if you have the time to figure out the code.
Would I advise Albert to try it.? then YES because it's free so got nothing to lose. Set it up on the bench with £5 BOB and give it a go.!
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
To apply DE-bounce to a pin requires you dive into Hal and code it.! In any other control software that would be tick box at the time of setting the pins.
Yes but just ticking a box does not let you change the parameters like the time delays .
Yes it is very simple now to set up a small standard mill or router or even a lathe in a few minutes with a P/port card or better still a mesa card.
In fact I retro fitting a Boxford 160 lathe with ATC just using a P/port.
Linuxcnc is simple to download an ISO then write it to a USB bootable in 15 minutes.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Trying to work out my design but need some answers to get me started.
1. Y axis side plates if I use 15mm aluminium plate how wide will it have to be.
2. Y axis is 600mm wide can you give me an idea how deep the gantry plate would be if I used 15mm aluminium plate.
3. How deep would X axis plates need to be the length is 1000mm and would be 15mm aluminium.
4. If this costs out to expensive. Could I use steel plate and what thickness would I need.
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Well never thought I'd say this about Linux CNC and it's hard to cough up the words.!! . . .
Try your best lad, it'll make a man of you! :beer:
In recent years there seems to have been a bewildering array of possible hardware and software produced for controlling your new machine and some of it is as expensive as the rest of the machine. This is not entirely inappropriate, these are important components, but the option to get things moving with some free software and a cheap breakout board while you spend most of your heard-earned on the bits that are not so easily and cheaply upgraded is the strength of the LinuxCNC/cheap parallel BoB combination in my opinion.
Once you have a working machine that can make things for you, then comes the time to delve into the other options available and decide what added features you really want to have.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi I have the supported rails already but I am not sure if z axis should be as close to the gantry of y axis or not
Albert
Don't waste the bits you've already bought, there are plenty of machines working to the full satisfaction of their owners using these rails. Mine for example. You can see the arrangement on my current build log.
If you're really worried there are designs using these rails mounted along the top and bottom of the gantry with the ballscrew behind, rather than with everything on the front like mine. One of the build logs on here has one I think, but it makes the Z axis more complex to build and the Y axis more difficult to align. You will also need to increase the height of the gantry above the bed. It's all about the compromises you're willing to make and the workshop facilities you have.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clive S
Yes but just ticking a box does not let you change the parameters like the time delays .
Yes it is very simple now to set up a small standard mill or router or even a lathe in a few minutes with a P/port card or better still a mesa card.
Clive, I kept it simple just to make the point but just about every other motion controller software I've ever used gives you the option to apply De-bounce by clicking an option and setting the amount of De-bounce. You don't need to go into any files and write 3 lines of code for such a simple thing was my point, it would be an easy thing to add to the wizard and I don't know why they don't.
It's these little details that spoil it to me and I suspect puts new users off, because once you leave the realms of the basic wizard is when the shit hits the fan and things go tits up for most new users... But we've had this conversion many times so I l know you don't agree...Lol . . . But you don't see many new users turning to Linux CNC or put another way if they do, there's a reason why Mach3/4 and now UCCNC are so popular.!! .... on which I rest my Case...:whistle:...:hysterical:
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Just a quick few questions stuck on my design
1. When joining into the end of 15mm aluminium should I use 8mm or 6mm Allen screws and how deep into the aluminium should I tap the hole.
2. When joining 15 mm aluminium 125mm wide how many screw do I need
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
In the end you would need to decide what works in your design but based on the information provide I would do the following:
8mm screws (there is still plenty of material left in the 15mm plate). 8mm are tightened to a higher torque so your clamping force on the joint will be much higher. Plus the heads are larger so make better contact with the piece they join to. You need to check the other material can accommodate the size of the head if using cap heads and they are countersunk.
Anything deeper than about the 1.5 x D for threads does not improve the joint. 1.5 x 8 is 12 so drill min 20 and tap to min 14 to allow you to use M8 with 12 mm engagement.. If you have a bottom tap you can drill a bit shallower but make sure you can tap enough whole threads.
For 125mm width I would choose 3 screws if the design allows. We could go into joint calculations and stress triangles but I’m not sensing you want to go there so at least 2 and ideally 3. One would be in the centre and the outer 2 would be set in around 15mm or so from the edge.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi thank you for the advice it's just what I needed I helps a lot on the design I was planing to use cap heads and sink them level with the surface.
This brings up another couple of questions.
1. Over a 600 mm length can I expect any flex on the gantry this will be an aluminium plate 600x150x15.
2. Should the bolts used be stainless steel or high tensile ones.
Thank you
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi thank you for the advice it's just what I needed I helps a lot on the design I was planing to use cap heads and sink them level with the surface.
This brings up another couple of questions.
1. Over a 600 mm length can I expect any flex on the gantry this will be an aluminium plate 600x150x15.
2. Should the bolts used be stainless steel or high tensile ones.
Thank you
Albert
A simple plate for the gantry like that will flex and vibrate more than you think. I would go for something with a proper depth like box section or aluminium profile.
Both bolt types will work for what you need. But high tensile would be used in an application where the loads being applied are enough to break a regular bolt. That shouldn’t be the case for a CNC machine where you are after stiffness not ultimate strength and they are probably more expensive so stainless will be fine.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations
For the gantry the easy and quick method is to use 2 pieces of 90x45 profile and fit them together to form an L section. Nothing else is required, job done.
You can bolt the gantry sides to each end of the profile . (you can tap the holes in the end of the profile to 12mm)
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
I already have the 80x40 profile so I could use that in L formation as well as the plate better to be safe than sorry
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations
It's not required albert for the type of work your going to do. The L shape gantry like Clive suggested works fine with 15mm plate, it's tried and tested design which works perfectly for a wood router. I've got dozens of small business users who I've built the same machine design running them 12hr days 6 days wk making every thing from MDF letters to guitars and fine jewelry boxes with very intricate inlays etc.
Also don't stress over the bolts, just plane old nuts and bolts will work fine. You will only need stainless if you are running coolant.!
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
How do you add a word file with a plan please
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
How do you add a word file with a plan please
Zip the file first
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Then how do you up load it
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
In the reply window try the little icon third from the right which looks like a tree in a frame. Then browse to your file.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi jazz here is a picture of my proposed layout for the gantry is this what you mean.
Also I am trying to work out the hight of travel for z axis I want a good range of possible but I am willing to sacrifice hight for acuarcey. I am thinking along the lines of the more travel for z axis the more strain on y axis when cutting am I right?
Please anyone give comments on my ideas I only need to build this once I hope.
AlbertAttachment 28705
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Please help with this build Albert
Yes and no.!!
Yes, the profile layout is correct but my design doesn't use the plate on the front. The rails sit top and bottom of the profile and the ball screw goes at the rear out of the firing line of chips.
However, I don't use round type rails so it's a little more difficult for you to mount the rails. If I was using those rails I'd bolt 10mm flat plate to the top n bottom of the profile and then fasten the rails to that. The plate on the front doesn't add much more strength than the profile does but does add weight and expense so I'd get rid of that if using my design.!
Another advantage of the rails being top n bottom other than saving cutting area is they support the Z-axis rear plate better because of the wider separation.
But your design with a slight tweak would work ok, but with the rails on the front your wasting cutting area, plus the ball screw is exposed on the front.
The tweak would be centralizing the plate or even lifting up so the bottom is flush with the lower profile. As you have it now hanging down it could vibrate because most of the cutting forces will be at the bottom rather than at the top.
This is a cut away of my design if it helps.
Attachment 28706
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Hi I will change the profile to the bottom of the plate I already have the 15 mm plate so will use that.
Also will look at moving ball screws and rails to the back and have z axis like a box around y gantry. Would that work
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Also will look at moving ball screws and rails to the back and have z axis like a box around y gantry. Would that work
Yes, it would work but again not needed and all your doing is adding weight. All you need is a drop-down bracket from the top bearing plate which extends backward.
But like I said your design will work and will be strong enough so if you are happy to use that then go with it.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
I don't understand how you about a drop down bracket from the top bearing plate could you do a little sketch to show me please
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
I don't understand how you about a drop down bracket from the top bearing plate could you do a little sketch to show me please
Attachment 28707
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
I think I understand I will post a revised picture tomorrow thank for all the help
Albert
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Please help with this build Albert
Attachment 28708
Is something like this what you mean
Albert
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigal999
Yes but in your case, it doesn't work very well because of the type of rails and the fact the rails are on the front so you have a long way to reach the back of the gantry.
I would either change the rails to top n bottom or drop the idea altogether and go back to your first plan.
Personally I'd be putting the rails top n Bot and dropping the plate because your wasting loads of cutting area and costing your self money in an expensive aluminium plate.
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Re: Please help with this build Albert
Thank you jazz I did try a test piece on an off cut of profile but the rails are just too wide for the 40 mm side of the profile and do not line up on the 80mm side anywhere I could get a good fastening on both sides of the rail.
I will think about how I can do it.
Also what about the ideal hight for z axis from waste board to the bottom of the gantry. As I am looking for fine detail first and rigidity and height second.
Albert