Looks awsome. Will need a lot of patience welding.
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Looks awsome. Will need a lot of patience welding.
Thanks Silyavski, yep that's going to be many many hours of welding. I'm a bit worried that the two square tubes on the front will bend a little during welding as its only welded on three sides but I'm hoping it will be ok. Maybe I'll only weld them top and bottom and not the back to prevent distortion. Do you think I need some ribs on the inside of the I-beam to prevent flex in the Y direction or is it going to be stiff enough with just the bearing and motor mount plates welded in?
Your making life much harder and expensive than it needs to be with all those rib plates.!!. .:dejection:
Two large thick walled pieces of box section arranged in a L shape with a few triangle braces at the rear will easily match your gantry in strength and be much cheaper and simpler to achive. It will be much easier to achive accurecy as well because with that thickness of steel on those square tubes then heat from welding will almost certainly have an affect either pushing or pulling on the boxsection with so many braces to weld, even on just 2 sides.
If you used a Tig welder you may have chance but even then I'd be surprised if it doesn't.! You will certainly have to take it very very slow keeping welds short and leaving plenty of time between to stand any chance.
Your design will be strong but no stronger than more conventional setup and 3 times harder to achive and probably 3 times more expensive.?
Also Please don't tell me this is just for cutting wood with occasional aluminium use.?. . . .:smiley_simmons:
Thanks for the input Jazz. I totally agree with the proven L shape being stronger per $. I'm not too worried about setting it up as the whole thing can be bolted together and adjusted before welding BUT I only have ARC. A bit of bowing of those tubes is not going to be the end of the world but if I get twist its going to be a throwaway so I'm seriously reconsidering my options. I can't get any square tube with walls thicker than than 3.5mm at my local steel shop so that's another curve ball I have to try and dodge with whichever design I'm going.
>>Also Please don't tell me this is just for cutting wood with occasional aluminium use.?
Yes, but I also want it gentle enough to cut little harts on pink mash mellows and then maybe the odd piece of brass in between :-)
Any movement of those tubes is bad news that will affect accurecy and take plenty of work to correct. This is the problem with such ridged design and complex setup that as limited scope to adjust out any build error.!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchejc
Cutting marsh mellow can be harder than you realise..:ghost:
Jazz I think if I use old bra straps to hold down those marsh mellows they are not going to be that difficult to cut ;-)
I'm pondering my choices here wrt to the gantry... my heart says go with the ribs and my mind says listen to these experienced gents :-) Blackrat on here got me into contact with a local supplier of the right epoxy for leveling so that will make things a little easier whichever way I go.
OK, now you have a nice picture. We could all agree it's the coolest design we have seen for a while.
Arc welder? Yeah I arc welded half of the first machine I made. But from now I am telling you it would be a mess with this design. Read my build where I changed at the last moment my gantry design cause I couldn't weld it as I designed it first. Luckily for the better.
And I have arc, mig, tag.
You should listen to your heart but also to your brain and your pocket.
At the end it should be doable in real life. That's the important thing.
Thanks for the good advice Silyavski. Fortunately I'm not building the machine to any deadline so I do have some time to rethink the design and if I have to redo the gantry design its ok, that's what I will do. You are right, the pocket is often where bad choices hurts the most :-)
Ok, I spend about three nights trying to redesign my gantry and every time I ended up starting to put ribs in :-) Got a quote on having the parts laser cut for the original design and it came to the equivalent of GBP120-00 so I decided to follow my hart and take a chance against good advice.
Ok, two weeks later and I can now say I FULLY understand what Jazz and sylyavski was trying to tell me and building this gantry design turned out to be a HUGE amount of work!
How do I convert this to a build thread?
Anyway, here's a few pictures of the gantry build. Took 3 full days to assemble and weld. I certainly know my little red arc welder much better now :whistle:
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14084&stc=1
Setting it up was relatively easy but took a lot of effort. Think 4x1m threaded rods + 88xnuts and you'll get the picture.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14085&stc=1
setup and squared.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14086&stc=1
test fit ballskrew before welding
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14087&stc=1
Weld, weld, weld, weld... Remove flux, turn over, weld, weld weld...
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14088&stc=1
Welding done apart from the 2 base plates which can only be done later. Very relieved it turned out pretty straight and no twist.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14089&stc=1
Would I recommend this approach for other first time builders? Well, if you are the kind of person that would describe three days of Chinese water torture as an interesting experience, then this is definitely the design you should go for...:biggrin:
Have to say its an amazing feeling to see the drawings turn into reality!
I am afraid that I cannot comment on the design, but that looks AMAZING. Well done. G.
Thanks for the kind words, Geoffrey. Yep, I also not 100% sure how good it will turn out but I'm putting all effort in and I hope to have it cutting in a few weeks time.
+1 what Geoffrey said.
Well done it's Well OTT and looks Cool but do Hope for your sake it is true and not got any twist because it will be a proper Ba@~?rd to tweak that bugger into shape. . LOL
I'd let it sit for quite a while to release stress's before trying to do any accurate setting up of it.! . . . That's a lot of welds in small area that will want to settle down and move.!
Thanks for the advice Jazz. OTT... please see observation below:-)
The granite slab I welded on is pretty flat and judging from that the two areas where the 2 X base plates will be welded is very much on the same plane, so no significant twist. I would say definitely less than 0.5 mm which is great as I was prepared to deal with 2 or 3mm if I had to. My plan is to weld in the 10mm base plates and then let the gantry settle under its own weight on top of the two alu blocks that sit on the linear guides with metal epoxy in between and release agent on the alu blocks. That way I should get a very good mating surface there and not induce stress bolting it together.
Two observations that might help other newbies.
1) Parts looks a lot more bulky in real life than on your little cad drawing. If you go with 'looks about right' on your cad, it will translate to 'way over designed' in real life.
2) Holding the parts for welding with threaded rod works well but put washer and maybe copper slip on the nuts as they may bind due to movement during welding which makes them hard to remove. I had to cut one rod to release the longitudinal stress that caused two nut to lock up completely.
3) Early in the weld a thin tag weld broke in half with a very loud ping sound during cooling, and I thought this is the beginning of the end as the offset on the broken tag was quite obvious. I did the opposing welds and when that cooled the tag had moved back to almost its original position and you could barely see the hairline crack where it broke.
How do I change this thread into a build log or should I just create a new thread under build logs to post my progress pictures?
Send a PM to Lee Roberts and ask him to move the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchejc
Thx Eddy, will do.
I use this method along with shimming all the time and it works great but don't use release agent your better with a thin film of plastic between, Cling film is what I use. Release agent doesn't always release good enough and can affect the epoxy curing, try a sample first if you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchejc
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchejc
That's true. Same happened here. For second time :butterfly:
I did not have internet for a week and see now that the build goes very well. I will call you if i need to design spaceship :triumphant:
Hehe, yes silyavski call me for the help on the spaceship design just make sure you buy big rocket engines as the ship might be a bit on the heavy side :-)
@Jazz
Thanks for the cling film plan, it works great and is a lot less effort than the release agent. Yesterday I was mating the surfaces where my x sides bolts to my frame and I already laid down the epoxy when I realised I don't have enough cling wrap left and had to make a plan in a hurry so I ripped a page out of a magazine that was lying there. That glossy paper worked remarkably well. The paper obviously stuck to the epoxy side but I removed it with a wet cloth afterwards. Funny thing is the ink remains so you end up with an inverse print on the epoxy surface of what was on the paper.
I really want to put sand in the three sq tubes in the gantry but I'm getting worried about the weight of my y and z. I'm not actually at the point in the build where I'm going to put the sand in but I need to decide now if I'm going to as it affects other choices. I know its a bit late in the process but I'm a bit shocked after actually totaling the weight of my y and z components. Comes out to +- 128kg. The sand will add another odd 20kg's. I'm willing to sacrifice performance for cut quality but maybe I've taken it too far. Not sure if I completed everything correctly but for my X calcs the motor calc spreadsheet turns red (margin of 2.5x instead of 3x) when I fill in my specs but I don't think its accounting for the fact that I have two motors? Will I be ok with this or should I rather reduce weight and not put sand in?
Sorry, realised above was a bit of a daft question. The spreadsheet does not allow for dual motor but obviously I can just half my weight for the calcs if have dual motors, so after redoing the calcs all looks fine and I'm doing to fill the sq tubes with sand.
Some progress photos. The base was done a while back. I figured its a good place to start to learning welding.
Started with a flat work area and made a jig to get the legs square
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14215&stc=1
welded lower frame
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14217&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14219&stc=1
welded upper frame
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14221&stc=1
lower and uper frame done
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14222&stc=1
spot welded legs into place using the jig
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14223&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14224&stc=1
welded in braces after the top and bottom frames were welded to the legs.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14225&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14226&stc=1
basically done apart for some diagonals
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14227&stc=1
Building the x sides with I-Beam and laser cut parts.
Cutting the i-beam. Thought this was going to be a huge issue because the beam I got is much larger than my cut-off saws capacity but it was done a few minutes later using two cuts and the angle grinder for the remaining bit in the middle.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14228&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14229&stc=1
I got all the holes lasered way oversize and made alu inserts for them. Just figured its a lot easier to ream alu bushes should I need some adjustment later to align things
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14230&stc=1
welded in ball skrew mounts
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14232&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14231&stc=1
welded in motor mount
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14233&stc=1
some test fitting just to see how these parts goes together
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14234&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14235&stc=1
I think using i-beam for the sides were a good plan and really easy to assemble and I can recommend this kind of approach for other newbies.
More work on the x sides. Drilling large dia holes by hand in the thick I-beam turned out to be a mission so I made two mdf boxes and drilled it on my small bench drill.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14236&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14237&stc=1
For basic alignment of the x-sides I used the centres of by ball skrew mounts
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14238&stc=1
Once aligned I welded in tabs to make re-alignment easy
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14239&stc=1
Used steel epoxy putty as per Jazz's suggestion for shimming. Worked like a dream. I can't imaging doing a steel home build without this stuff as there's just no way a beginner is going to weld something of this scale together and end up with perfectly square mated surfaces.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14240&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14241&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14242&stc=1
x sides almost done.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14243&stc=1
Looking great, and your "shed" is to die for. G.
I noticed that too. Lucky man. Great development!Quote:
Originally Posted by GEOFFREY
Thanks gents. The shed was actually build years ago as sort of an entertainment area which I started using as a workshop as there's just no space left in my garage. The tiled floor is a bit of a drawback because its not very flat and my wife still treats the area as hers so she does regular inspections for paint, glue and weld marks on the floor :-)
Have to say I did not realise that building the router was going to this much work! Everything is taking much longer than I thought but I'm enjoying every minute of it. Ahhh well ok not every minute but most of them.
After Jazz's stern but true words about over design I do feel a little bit guilty to continue posting pictures but heck, if its not right please comment, so we can all learn.
Completed the alu base plates that joins the gantry to the x rails. I've made the plates adjustable in both y and z direction so I don't have issues putting it all together later. Had the spacing of the ball nut mount wrong on my cad drawing so I had to make little adapter plates and pockets.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14268&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14269&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14270&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14271&stc=1
Ran a belt sander with 80 grit belt over the alu which did give it a rather rather nice brushed kind of finish.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14272&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14273&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14274&stc=1
Done and all holes drilled and tapped. Thought these we going take a few hours but ended up more than a days work
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14275&stc=1
Like most of my parts the actual size of these surprised me when seeing them in the flesh and I probably could have gotten away with much thinner material?
NO NO please don't stop posting and my post wasn't aimed to discourage you or anyone else from building like this if they have capabiltys or means.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchejc
It soley to let those sitting on the side lines watching and wondering if this is the level they will have to build too know that it really really isn't.
You Sir are doing a marvelous job and for a first build I take my hat to you, thou I think you may have bushel in your thatch loose for doing it like this. . .Lol
Keep it up and don't let my rantings sway you it's the last thing I want.! . . . Just Like I don't want Newbies swayed away.!
Thanks for encouragement Jazz! The reason I felt a bit guilty was because I understood what you meant with your post e.g. I've seen this with air rifles as well were a few guys buy and post about extremely high end target rifles even thought they don't know which end should point forward and other newbies think that's what you need to have fun. After bonding the house and downgrading the car to buy a big $$$ gun they realize they actually had more fun shooting beer cans with the little budget plinker rifle they had. Now, I'm that guy that does not know sh%t but I'm still posting my stuff... :-) When all is done and dusted I'll post my "lessons learned" which will hopefully be helpful to other first timers.
Anyway, thanks, I only got great info and advice on here and I'm having a BALL trying to hack this beast together :peaceful:
>>> bushel in your thatch loose
Hehe, yes I get that often from friends. Why is someone considered nuts just because the they have the dedication and commitment of a suicide bomber towards their hobbies:highly_amused:
A few more pics of progress on X.
Went with the Silyavski 8mm epoxy dams.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14368&stc=1
Thought I'd cast a T shape on my base to eventually use as reference to do initial setup of the gantry and Z. Things got out of hand as per usual and I had spare epoxy and did the whole base. Used modeling clay for the dams. VERY bad plan, don't do it. It works nicely to build the the dams but its a total bitc$%$ to remove the later.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14370&stc=1
base done
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14371&stc=1
I made a little tent using a blanket and plastic sheet and stuck a little fan heater under there to get the temp up to about 50degC for proper post curing. You guys in the cold places might find that handy.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14372&stc=1
X sides painted light gray. The base is just white primer and is not going to be painted as it will be fully enclosed anyway.
X epoxy done and fully cured.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14373&stc=1
Finished the last work on the gantry before it goes on the machine.
Did the last bit of welding for the bottom plates and epoxy dams
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14374&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14375&stc=1
When I did this it was raining everyday here in sunny South Africa so I had no choice but to spray inside. This reminded me why I hate to spray indoors. Managed to get it sprayed but also the floor, myself, my tool cupboards and everything else in the near vicinity :-)
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14376&stc=1
starting to make things ready for the epoxy. Did not take photos of the epoxy process but you you know the drill.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14377&stc=1
Some work I've done on the Z parts during the last few weeks while I was waiting for epoxy to cure and paint to dry etc.
Here's some of the laser cut steel parts. Z will be steel and front plate from alu. I wanted my Y and Z carriages on top of each other in sort of a + configuration. I did not want any welding on the actual plates so all the parts just bolts to the plates. This might not make sense but I'll post more pics to hopefully explain it a bit better.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14378&stc=1
Welding the z ball skrew mount
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14380&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14381&stc=1
After some serious welding, grinding and sanding
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14383&stc=1
Managed to get it a little out of square to I'll have to epoxy shim my fixed bearing side a little
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14385&stc=1
welding part of the z stepper mount
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14379&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14386&stc=1
NB. Newbies please take note!! These leather gloves were new when I started this project, which should give you an indication of the amount of work that goes into building a CNC. ;-)
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14388&stc=1
but I found this helps a lot, before, after and during the process:friendly_wink:
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14384&stc=1
Can't wait to see it all put together, it's a work of art.
Most of the parts are now made and I've started assembling things. Still lots of drilling and tapping to do though.
Other newbies take note: When you ever post a picture like this and don't realize you have "slightly" over-designed your little 600x500mm DYI router, then sir, you are an idiot :wink: Ok, its not really that heavy but its more than uncomfortable for one person to lift.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14389&stc=1
setting up x rails
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14390&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14391&stc=1
Made these little adjusters front and back of both gantry bases (stainless allencap in pic below) to help adjusting things before I epoxy putty mated the gantry to the alu base plates. I'll use them again for final epoxy shimming if required once the z is on.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14392&stc=1
Aligning and measuring stuff. Really pleased with how things are turning out and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll get the accuracy I was hoping for.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14393&stc=1
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14395&stc=1
No mater how well you think things thru beforehand there's always going to be that one hole you have to drill in an impossible place. No turning back now so just have to make a plan...
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14396&stc=1
X and Y rails and X ball skrews fitted. Have to compete the Z back plate before I can fit Y ball skrew
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14397&stc=1
Test fitting parts of the z back plate. Still quite a bit work left on the z but I hope to complete that next weekend.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.ph...id=14398&stc=1
So close but so far....
WOW. A little OTT perhaps, but awesome - absolutely mighty. I think that this might just qualify for the best homebrew ever. Geoff.
Gents, thanks for the kind words. I really hope the end product is going to be be worth the effort that going in :-)