Vacuum table Setup Advice

I would use the compressor setup to resolve all table, mat and fixture issues. Once i know that all functions and what exactly i need i would buy then the proper sized vacuum pump.

Jumping to buy the first vacuum pump seen is not a good idea. From what i see from the picture you are again on the wrong path.

You need a 2 stage low volume high pressure vacuum pump / but enough volume/ , no high volume low pressure vacuum pump. These are not the proper technical words may be , just to have an idea what i am talking about.

This is exactly the vacuum pump my friend bought from ebay. he is using it for a vacuum chamber. I am thinking of buying one also. It seems to me its up to the task as i have seen it in real life. Its a sucker. 7cfm.
Check all specifications again including electrical, ask the vacuum table dealer or manufacturer if its ok and buy that sucker. It will be extremely unacceptable new, just check price :-)

so that pump you link to on ebay, would it do for what I need is the question?

theres so many figure flying round its hard to know exactly what I need to look for in terms of spec

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

I would use the compressor setup to resolve all table, mat and fixture issues. Once i know that all functions and what exactly i need i would buy then the proper sized vacuum pump.

Jumping to buy the first vacuum pump seen is not a good idea. From what i see from the picture you are again on the wrong path.

You need a 2 stage low volume high pressure vacuum pump / but enough volume/ , no high volume low pressure vacuum pump. These are not the proper technical words may be , just to have an idea what i am talking about.

This is exactly the vacuum pump my friend bought from ebay. he is using it for a vacuum chamber. I am thinking of buying one also. It seems to me its up to the task as i have seen it in real life. Its a sucker. 7cfm.
Check all specifications again including electrical, ask the vacuum table dealer or manufacturer if its ok and buy that sucker. It will be extremely unacceptable new, just check price :-)

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Just to put my twopenorth in. I personally think that if you are cutting small parts in ally, don't bother with trying to use vacuum without some other form of clamping device. Use clamps, jigs, fixtures or whatever, but I think you will waste a lot of time and money with vacuum alone. I also do not believe that you will get away using only a single phase pump. If you are cuttig small parts from a large sheet area, it may work, really vacuum hold down is fsr better suited to timber/board type products. Anyway, good luck, but don't wastew too much time, effort or money. G.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Just to put my twopenorth in. I personally think that if you are cutting small parts in ally, don't bother with trying to use vacuum without some other form of clamping device. Use clamps, jigs, fixtures or whatever, but I think you will waste a lot of time and money with vacuum alone.

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Agree 100% Geoffrey.!! .

How is 250mm by 150mm small?

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Originally Posted by andy_con

How is 250mm by 150mm small?

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It's not untill you start cutting thru it.!! . . . Just like a parachute works fine when canopy is inflated but punch a few holes in it and you'll reach mother earth much sooner than you'd like.:angel:

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Originally Posted by andy_con

How is 250mm by 150mm small?

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What is it exactly your wanting to cut and how many and size of holes/cutouts.?

no word of a lie exactly this

http://youtu.be/jDrRICZq4KQ

I machined this case in separate panels, it took forever. so I want to machine these panels but on a vacuum table

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps193d5a35.jpg

Not sure why that would take for ever and certainly doesn't need a vacuum table. Those panels would take minutes using conventional hold down methods.!
Couple of intial clamps until few holes drilled then screw it down and carry on. Simplizzzz

yeah so square up on the table using a test dial.

clamp

drill some holes

remove and fix down to a jig

put back in mill and re-square using test dial

machine the rest.

or put straight onto a vacuum table and do the whole thing in one go

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Originally Posted by andy_con

yeah so square up on the table using a test dial.

clamp

drill some holes

remove and fix down to a jig

put back in mill and re-square using test dial

machine the rest.

or put straight onto a vacuum table and do the whole thing in one go

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No no your making it far more complex than needed. If one off then just have base board you can screw into. Clamp it down do the first op which is drilling cycle then stick a few screws into it. Remove clamps and carry on with rest of the cycle.

If got lots of same to do then do the same but with permantent fixture jig with toggle clamps and holes already in to accept threaded bolts.

Standard stuff really and not complicated or timely.!

meh still not as good as a vacuum table ;-)

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Originally Posted by andy_con

meh still not as good as a vacuum table ;-)

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Well all can say then is you got too much bloody money. . :joker:

haha if only...

I like to do thing properly first time, sometimes DIY just isn't good enough.

ive got a tormach touch probe, z height setter, tapmatic tapping heads, threadmills the lot. I like to just do it properly

DIY vacuum might be a bit more tricky, but I don't see how an expensive high quality vacuum system overcomes the biggest resetting issue which you have already mentioned in passing. What's all this nonsense about clocking each piece? Clamp down the spoil board, then use the router to drill holes for locating pins. You'll surely do something like this with a vacuum hold-down? After that, it's difficult to believe that toggle clamps are much slower than vacuum. The difference in cost could go to some really nice cutters, which might even reduce the cutting time by more than the difference in clamping time!

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Originally Posted by andy_con

haha if only...

I like to do thing properly first time, sometimes DIY just isn't good enough.

ive got a tormach touch probe, z height setter, tapmatic tapping heads, threadmills the lot. I like to just do it properly

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Ye I know what you mean but this isn't DIY technique it's the way it's often done in industry. Vacuum isn't widely used for small parts and those with lots of thru holes and thats for a good reason.! . . . It's very very expensive to do correctly and can be unreliable. Fixtures and Jigs work and are repeatable time after time..!! . . . Like this.!!

How well do you think your standard vacuum system would do with holding this down with so many cuts and a deep depth of cut.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gitIQ0xnFUg

is that your machine?

suppose I could do something like that, I just like datrons way ;)

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Originally Posted by andy_con

is that your machine?

suppose I could do something like that, I just like datrons way ;)

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No not my machine and I like Datrons way but I haven't got £5000 + spare so I use £30 toggle clamps/bolts and it takes 1 minute longer.!
I then cut assured that the parts arn't going to slip and slid lossing accurecy or worse still get embedded into my neck when they Vacuum alone decides enoughs enough.!!

Horses for courses really. Vac is great for thin parts with no holes or large parts with few holes. Small with lots or large holes and it quickly becomes not funny.!

Anyway think i've said all that's to be said so hope you make the right choice in end so your wallet is stress free.!! . . . . . .. If not then you really have got too much money. . Lol

lol

im very grateful for your help

Dean,very illustrative video, that's exactly how i work also. With the addition that when i have pass through profile and holes,sometimes i fix below a 3 mm sacrificial expanded plastic board . The board is not needed when routing wood or plastic, only for aluminum, cause for the aluminum the bit should go a bit in the sacrificial board for a clean cut.

Andy, as for repetitive parts like the panels example, if they come in cut shapes or as i do some hundreds of same pieces, the best solution is to make a custom vacuum fixture. Its not a great deal, simple to make once you know the principles involved and is very useful. Much better than universal table. You once align the fixture and then go.

Surely for wood the bit needs to fully penetrate the work so therefore a sacrificial (mdf?) board is still required. What type of expanded plastic board do you use as most plastics are virtually impermeable, or do you use some kind of foam board (polystyrene?). G.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Surely for wood the bit needs to fully penetrate the work so therefore a sacrificial (mdf?) board is still required. What type of expanded plastic board do you use as most plastics are virtually impermeable, or do you use some kind of foam board (polystyrene?). G.

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3-4mm expanded PVC, used usually as backing for large photo prints. have friends with photo studio and use for free the rests. its sth like 6euro per sq m , sold on sheets of 3x2m. Easily cut wit cutter/exacto knife/. One of my favorite materials.

also from them i get super strong ultra thin double tape sheet, used to stick photo prints to methacrylate. This i use on small pieces for fixing the center not to flap. very strong stuff, if used bigger is impossible to separate. if cutter passes through it though the last cut should be way slower.

If the machine is precise and the table is surfaced plastic or even better- some phenolic sheet, the bit does not need to penetrate more than 0 for wood and plastic.Its very pleasant to the eye how it cuts through and does not damage the surface. of course after auto 0 procedure, preferably using calibrated material touch plate.

Only for aluminum it needs to go deeper as its slightly pushes the last material instead of cuttingwhen set to cut to 0 depth.

Thanks Boyan. Your machine must be super accurate if you can cut through without marking the undersheet. I have a metal matrix table and neoprene gasket material is fed into the matrix slots to form the vacuum to the the areas where i want to cut. Under vacuum the gasket compresses, more or less flush to the bed, but not 100%. This would certainly preclude only cutting to the spoilboard top, and all the large flatbed routers that I have seen ALWAYS leave a witness mark of some description. G.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Thanks Boyan. Your machine must be super accurate if you can cut through without marking the undersheet. I have a metal matrix table and neoprene gasket material is fed into the matrix slots to form the vacuum to the the areas where i want to cut. Under vacuum the gasket compresses, more or less flush to the bed, but not 100%. This would certainly preclude only cutting to the spoilboard top, and all the large flatbed routers that I have seen ALWAYS leave a witness mark of some description. G.

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This is why you need a thin permeable layer to allow cutting thru without marking base.

Boyan most the Ali plate I cut comes with plastic protection layer and this offers enough cut thru in most cases. I always use finish pass which helps remove most of the burr and then I De-bur anyway so doesn't really cause a problem.

Here is short video of the ebay pump. I went today to my friend and tried it. In Russian, we speak about the additional pieces and that obtaining the clamps from the seller is very important.. Now to have in mind that this is 7cfm pump at the same time only 0.37kw and very quiet. Its 3 phase so as you can see at the video. Definitely worth purchasing if sb is on a hunt for vacuum pump. All extra pieces are custom made.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...jnfNiLBkTyDYMU

wont let me view, says I need an account to view

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

Here is short video of the ebay pump. I went today to my friend and tried it. In Russian, we speak about the additional pieces and that obtaining the clamps from the seller is very important.. Now to have in mind that this is 7cfm pump at the same time only 0.37kw and very quiet. Its 3 phase so as you can see at the video. Definitely worth purchasing if sb is on a hunt for vacuum pump. All extra pieces are custom made.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...jnfNiLBkTyDYMU

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Here is the vid in YouTube now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLqNP8nCp_E

The connection and bracket are named KF25. plenty of them cheap in ebay.

What you will need more for the system:
-outlet- additional bracket and oil trap filter for the exhaust oil vapors, which is basically a box with sponge inside
-inlet- at least another bracket and hose adapter. Inline air filter at least 5 micron, so no dust enters the sucker. Maybe cheap car fuel filter or sth similar. Liquid separator?
-2 capacitors so you can run it 2 phase. its 3 phase originally. One for start and other to run, see video.

additional notes:
-I don't see a reason for an air reservoir as the system will be very tight and it will take time to achieve pressure with big deposit. Switch on, use and then switch off. This pump has nothing to do with the cheap ones/similar price new/ sold at ebay with similar ratings in CFM, though i believe even they will work ok as here the purpose is not removing the last atom...
-digital vacuum gauge is recommended, though even a analogue will work ok. i don't see actual need for switch except to make some sort of bleed valve when certain vacuum is reached. hopefully there will be some smallish leaks in the diy seal anyway, cause that thing is a sucker.

I am very inclined to grab one. If you are even more patient next week i will go there again, so can try it with some improvised vacuum fixture and make video of it.

I took the forums advice

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...psetbbdrxg.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...pstefrq1hn.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...psnplilp1f.jpg

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Originally Posted by andy_con

I took the forums advice

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Looking good.!:thumsup:

It's good feeling knowing it's going to stay put and not turn into slitting disc if cutter jams or decide it doesn't like this cutting millarky so turns into flying saucer.!! . .:onthego:

We develop a thin film for hard works may be it can do the job? Please take a look at the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbCqkUomf5M