El Beast - Initial design phase, comments and critique welcomed!

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

So, first things first - big delivery of eco-cast plate! Enough to keep me going for a couple of months I'm sure.

Managed to have the big bugger (the bed tool plate) fall over on my foot as I was moving the packages around. That hurt...

http://i.imgur.com/5yuzBZu.jpg


I also finished off a couple more shoulder screws for the X-axis slider plate, full set now... just waiting for a 1.5mm end mill to arrive to machine the slots in the top.

http://i.imgur.com/AW4xwfV.jpg


And I've designed this little setup for stop/limit switch on the Y-axis using hall effect proximity switches. The brass dial is threaded m6x1 to give 1mm movement fore-aft per rotation for simplicity's sake when setting up, and has a small magnet embedded in the face for the hall effect sensor. Small spring provides tension on the thread.

The mounts themselves will be 3d printed.

http://i.imgur.com/wyNh3ZR.png


And they just tuck in behind the rail mount plates here (both front and back, only the back one shown).


http://i.imgur.com/uUcx0sg.png

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Good to see you're spreading into the house!! Like your sensor setup - how will you lock them in place once set?

New to fusion here...Truly admire your skills! All of them.

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Originally Posted by tt_mikechandley9074

New to fusion here...Truly admire your skills! All of them.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by JoeHarris

Good to see you're spreading into the house!! Like your sensor setup - how will you lock them in place once set?

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Haha, while the wife's away.... thankfully she doesn't browse mycncuk! (I'm a poet?!).

The main blocks are screwed into place, the adjustment for setting home precisely comes from the knurled brass dial. The spring will provide tension on the threads which will stop the dial from moving with vibration, so there shouldn't be any need to lock it further, although I could add a small grub screw that tightens perpendicular to the thread perhaps for an extra locking mechanism.

Mike/Chaz - very kind, but honestly I'm nothing special at fusion. I just poke around like the amateur that I am and if I want to do something that I don't know how to I go and find a youtube tutorial (e.g., like physically modelling that knurling on the dial - found a great tutorial here and just took the general idea of how he did it... I did the chamfering slightly differently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnz1s35vmyg&t=303s).

Slowly as you pick up more techniques through your various projects you become a bit more skilled at figuring out how to make what you want. I certainly find fusion easier to use than e.g. solidworks that I have used in the past.

I do like Fusion's renders they look lovely, when you downloaded the Hiwin models were they coloured already?

If you can make a working CNC machine in Fusion I'd say you must be better than average at Fusion ;) Anyone can place models but making them align properly is a different matter.

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

I do like Fusion's renders they look lovely, when you downloaded the Hiwin models were they coloured already?

If you can make a working CNC machine in Fusion I'd say you must be better than average at Fusion ;) Anyone can place models but making them align properly is a different matter.

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Ye, its fairly hard, I managed to get Thor moving on axis by rotating ballscrews on the Y. Once you understand it, its not too bad however I found it complex dealing with all the assets and knowing how to manage them across different drawings and which become 'grounded' and which not. Watch some vids on joints for Fusion.

I don't use Fusion will check it out when I upgrade but will probably stick with turbocad platinum with cam and furniture maker plugin.

I build everything as blocks in turbocad and blocks within blocks it's the only way to build this sort of thing in turbocad without going crazy lol. The main drawing is then made of blocks and you normally edit the blocks not the main drawing.

There's is no mechanical/animation capacity so everything is static in Turbocad.

desertboy - I think I ended up adding the colour, but I'm not entirely sure.


Small bit of progress today.

First up the main bed needed trimming down a couple of mm in width... decided easiest way was to use a hand router and guide rail. I finished by just popping a 1.5mm chamfer on all sides and giving it all a little tickle with some 240 grit on the orbital.

http://i.imgur.com/KlVPTP7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/354ldCh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ijmdbSd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4bquXYD.jpg


And 3d printed the Y-axis sensor mounts

http://i.imgur.com/P8kBbbf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/i9jlEZx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SlFa7sT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pLvdDDI.jpg


Also designed and now printing a drill jig for the bed plate corners. I'll make the brass drill bushing on the lathe.

http://i.imgur.com/bvHwqKa.png

Those mounts are nice. Willing to share the STL (or whatever format you have)? Might use it for inspiration to improve my proxy mounts.

sure, just shoot your email over to me via pm

Got my 1.5mm end mill today so finished off the shoulder screws - chuffed with these little bad boys as my first lathe project!

http://i.imgur.com/PObTUBE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gJxghC7.jpg


And this is what they do - in theory the X-axis slider plate is now constrained at all 4 corners, and should be in pretty much perfect alignment with the rails

http://i.imgur.com/4xH43z1.jpg

Couple of jobs done today, nothing overly exciting sadly!

I made my drill jigs after a few changes to my design to allow me to use it in multiple places.

http://i.imgur.com/6gVUSLe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rfZnjQl.jpg


Stage 1 in trying to get a nicely aligned machine, I laid it down on the ecocast bed plate and re-assembled with that as my flat reference.

http://i.imgur.com/sYlVdYb.jpg


Flipped and inserted spring T-nuts for retaining the bed. I also plan to drill through into the long extrusions once the machine is assembled for some alignment pins that will allow the bed to be removed and replaced without losing alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/Re2fmFX.jpg


With the machine now right side up, I had a first go at my method for aligning the rails to the bed reference and thus hopefully each other. I used a 1mm piece of shim brass and using a clamp I moved along the rail tightening as I went. I'm wondering if it is worth making a DRO setup to read divergence from the bed in Z to verify.

http://i.imgur.com/dnaN5HI.jpg


I've been thinking about the easiest way to verify that the rails are equidistant along the whole travel to a suitable level of accuracy. I'm thinking that one the motors and rail mounts are hooked up I could make a piece that spans the gap between the two side mount plates that can float in X. Fit a DRO to that and take measurements at each of the cross support points, shim if necessary. Thoughts?

I'd forgo the DRO and just surface the bed when you have it all together. It would then be as perpendicular to the Z axis as possible. I think your brass shim method will get you very close to perfect.

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Oh there will be a milled tool plate, but that method doesn't work here.

Imagine that one end of a rail is lower while the other rail is totally level. If you machine the bed flat then you'll have a nice level reading from a dro in the spindle making you think you have a flat bed. In reality it would be twisted towards the rail that is lower at one end.

That was the importance of using this eco-cast bed as a flat reference, since its basically the flattest thing that I could find readily available at reasonable cost. To do things properly and get the best end result, it needs to be as closely aligned to the ecocast plate as possible before moving on to milling a separate took plate once the machine is assembled.

It's one of the challenges of mounting these rails on the side. If they were flat on the plate then it would be a non issue.

I understand what you're saying but the rails don't have to be co-planar when you mount them on the sides. They just have to be parallel. The manufacturer's method of mounting two rails is set one where you want it, then use it as a guide to set the other. So in this case, you'd set your first rail then use your gantry connection to the other side to guide the second rail into position. Either way, you've got a fantastic machine going and I'm sure you will get it mounted to your liking. Enjoying watching it come together.

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Looking very good there, I considered a tooling plate bed for my machine but the cost is over £500 + the VAT lol so decided that 25mm sheet of mdf would be ok for now after all.

I love how tidy she looks I can't think of 1 CNC machne you can buy I've seen that looks even close to how tidy and professional yours looks.

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Originally Posted by 1Jumper10

I understand what you're saying but the rails don't have to be co-planar when you mount them on the sides. They just have to be parallel.

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In this case, it's the same thing. If they are parallel, then they are coplaner.

Another day, another part.

Today I bashed out the side mounting plates. I'll need to make some more shoulder screws as I have used a similar alignment strategy to the gantry slider plate to ensure alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/xyLtaiW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1GPMmNi.jpg


I also had my first whoopsy moment on this project - the lead out from the contour of the first part went crashing into the second part and I missed it on the simulation. Oh well, the small gouge will be a reminder that I'm a moron.

http://i.imgur.com/oLYSp3n.jpg


Good indication as to how much chunkier the new machine is - even the mounting plates make the X6's arms look skinny:

http://i.imgur.com/1oHOAZh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hadLv9j.jpg

Every day I come by and check your post to see what you have done. Super job!

Wow! Zeeflyboy...

What a assume and inspiring post you have .. That is one excellent machine you are building. I have a million questions as I want to build something like yours with my students but I will read more before I ask to many repeated questions. Ones that you already have commented on in your post. Do you have a set of drawings that I could look through?
OH sorry ... my rude .. My name is Dale and nice to meet you...
Thanks for a excellent read.. Dale
Thanks

Cheers, though its a toy compared to some of the beasts on here (looking at you chaz!). Don't have any drawings, what are you after specifically?

Rob - ta!

I noticed today that I've had a bit of a design snafu. My motor mount model was mislabelled - the model is a mb10-c and what I have are mb12-c.

Thankfully I caught it before I made the x or z parts, but it means my ball screws are 3mm too low at the motor end as the mb12-c is a little taller.

So options are:

- Buy 2x MB10-C (bad... about £60 each and it isn't great for consistency)

- Re-machine a new front face plate with the ball screw bearings moved down by 3mm (I'll have to order more aluminium... not great but cheaper than two new motor mounts). Will also require a small design tweak to the ballnut mounts.

- skim the motor mount plates down by 3mm. Downside is they were only 10mm to start with so would be getting a bit skinny.

I'm leaning towards option 2. Really annoying - good lesson to verify all models are correctly labelled before using them! Could be worse, at least I caught it before it caused problems on all the axis.

Hi Zeeflyboy,

You are building almost exactly what I am thinking of building. I was wondering if you had a working drawing and a material list. Great job!

Thanks Dale

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Cheers, though its a toy compared to some of the beasts on here (looking at you chaz!). Don't have any drawings, what are you after specifically?

Rob - ta!

I noticed today that I've had a bit of a design snafu. My motor mount model was mislabelled - the model is a mb10-c and what I have are mb12-c.

Thankfully I caught it before I made the x or z parts, but it means my ball screws are 3mm too low at the motor end as the mb12-c is a little taller.

So options are:

- Buy 2x MB10-C (bad... about £60 each and it isn't great for consistency)

- Re-machine a new front face plate with the ball screw bearings moved down by 3mm (I'll have to order more aluminium... not great but cheaper than two new motor mounts). Will also require a small design tweak to the ballnut mounts.

- skim the motor mount plates down by 3mm. Downside is they were only 10mm to start with so would be getting a bit skinny.

I'm leaning towards option 2. Really annoying - good lesson to verify all models are correctly labelled before using them! Could be worse, at least I caught it before it caused problems on all the axis.

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Feel for you, I almost made a similar mistake I just assumed all my Hiwin's were HGH carriages but some were HGL which are 4mm shorter. I almost missed it it's only because I put all my Hiwin's together that I noticed there was a height difference and so actually checked with a steel ruler and discovered the recovered Hiwin's were HGL.

Really shows that measuring everything in the real world to make sure you cad models are correct and the right ones is just a good idea.

Can you get tooling plate locally? Where I am there are a few suppliers doing tooling plate they are more expensive than aluminium warehouse but cheaper on small orders because there's no delivery charge.

Not aware of any sadly, but never mind - can order some more stuff next week from alu warehouse.

So given some doubts raised about the accuracy of the shoulder bolts as a way of aligning the mounting plates, I thought I had better check what I was getting. Given the gantry arms will sit on a saddle plate, these mounting plates do dictate the squareness of the Z to the Y axis, so the closer they are to perfect the easier time I will have making sure the gantry is squared up.

I figured this was a good method of checking - in theory if the mounting plate is perfectly level then the reading on the indicator should stay at zero as the plate moves from front to back (indicator is metric, 0.000mm)

http://i.imgur.com/vJleehI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m969H7s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0BIxU4X.jpg

Magically, this side was 0.000mm both at front and back, the middle showed -0.006mm which I would guess is due to non-straightness in my current machine's X-axis gantry meaning that there is a slight bow in the top of the plate, but 0.006mm is only slightly larger than the some bacterium is long so I'll forgive it that!

Sadly, my joy at that stunning level of alignment was short lived - the other side showed one end about 0.072mm out between front and back. Not that bad over a 200mm or so span, but not really at the level of what I'm after.

So two options - either I just skim down one of the shoulder bolts and surgically tap the mount into alignment, or I make life difficult for myself and add a shoulder for the carriages.

I decided to try the shoulder method, since i can easily change back and forth between either method then depending on the results of my experiments. The only catch is that since my current machine isn't exactly perfectly accurate, I was largely relying on the flatness of the eco-cast plate to give the required alignment and tolerances... that means machining a pocket to then give the carriages a shoulder to rest on is not ideal as I've then lost the flatness of the plate and am back to relying on my machine's tolerances.

I decided to try machining a slot, then making a counterpart to go in there which would provide an alignment rail whilst still having the carriage mount to the ground surface of the plate.

This is the design:

http://i.imgur.com/SF9qGMO.png


Doing it retrospectively, I would have machined the whole thing back side first, then flipped over for pocketing the heads of the screws... that would have ensured the absolute best possible alignment between slot and mount plate. Seeing as that option is no longer possible, I used some 6mm H7 dowel pins and pre drilled a pattern into the bed so that the plates are aligned as best as I can manage to the machine.

http://i.imgur.com/d3xt28t.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Rk6N7rl.jpg


Then machined the inserts:

http://i.imgur.com/LHqpqRw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XBfQtXV.jpg


They fit very snugly, can't feel any play even without the screws in place.

http://i.imgur.com/sgnw7tW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XHfCxAb.jpg



I then re-ran my indicator test, and while an improvement over the poorer side of 0.072mm, when compared to the perfect side it got significantly worse - it is approximately 0.020mm higher at the back than the front. It is fairly easy to knock it into shape to within around 0.004mm between front and back by loosening the bolts a touch and giving a little tap. I may try just using a little shim material to give a more precise fit. I think aiming for anything more precise than that really is just chasing my own tail since the first test showed the surface isn't flat to more than 0.006mm anyway.

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

Really shows that measuring everything in the real world to make sure you cad models are correct and the right ones is just a good idea.

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Thats some realy good and important advice ^^.
Always make sure the real world is up to spec and the reverse :p

Made that error many times myself.

Hi Zeeflyboy
The check you doing at the top of post 143 doesn't guarantee that the side plates are parallel to the bed. They might be pointing up or down hill. As you are measuring at one point you won't see this.
So repeat but this time keep the side plate fixed and slide the mag base instead. If that is also ~0 then the two parts are parallel.

Indeed, it doesn't guarantee alignment to the bed, but to the rail/carriages... which are aligned separately to the bed. If the plate was at an angle to the rail/carriages the readings would change as it moves past - I can actually demonstrate that by inducing an angle.

If measuring to the bed then yes, it needs another point of reference... but moving the indicator is enough to induce a small change just when it comes down into contact with a different part of the plate so that's not quite so easily done. I figure it's easiest for me to align the rails to the bed, then align the side mounts to the rails.

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Indeed, it doesn't guarantee alignment to the bed, but to the rail/carriages... which are aligned separately to the bed. If the plate was at an angle to the rail/carriages the readings would change as it moves past - I can actually demonstrate that by inducing an angle.

If measuring to the bed then yes, it needs another point of reference... but moving the indicator is enough to induce a small change just when it comes down into contact with a different part of the plate so that's not quite so easily done. I figure it's easiest for me to align the rails to the bed, then align the side mounts to the rails.

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Understood -carry on !

Just interested in some thoughts of this slightly different approach to mounting the rails in reference to the eco-cast bed. One of the rails in particular has a very slight bend it seems (not unusual apparently from my research), and the method I used of clamping the carriage with a spacer isn't working quite as well as hoped due to what I assume is the steel rail bending down the 20mm bed surface rather than being pulled up during the clamping.

I designed this little spacer which would be screwed into the extrusion and has some up/down movement on the screw slots and are slim enough to pass under the carriage. The idea would be to drill the extrusion to take 6 of these along the length of the Y-axis. they could be butted up against the bed plate and then screwed down into place, then the rail can be clamped against them while fastening. Basically ending up similar to having a machined lip for the rail to butt up against.

http://i.imgur.com/xxd3mX5.png

The plan for making these would be to align them on the machine in such a way that the important dimension (height) would all be cut on the same part of the ballscrew to minimise any potential variation.


http://i.imgur.com/bvw8juv.png

I'm waiting for some new end mills and some motivation to re-cut the front plate after my motor mount boo boo, but in the mean time I made a start on a low profile machine vice I designed. Haven't been very happy with the low profile vice I already have and want something much stronger and hopefully more accurate.

This is the overall design, today I made the fixed end:

http://i.imgur.com/FVuyyq5.png

Basically it uses a bolt pattern on the bed for alignment dowels and bolting down, but gives access right down to bed level (or below with a cut out I suppose!) which will be useful when trying to machine or drill taller pieces. I have since tweaked the design slightly to allow the travelling end to be bolted down as well if required for extra rigidity.

Missed taking a photo of the first bits, but basically vertically it is made up of 2 pieces of plate as I don't have any tools long enough to cut the whole thing in one pass and it allows me a bit more flexibility in how it is made.

After machining the two pieces and bolting them together, I popped them into the machine again and faced them down by 0.2mm on each of the main faces to give a nice flat and square face.

http://i.imgur.com/THup4Az.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IGv3aEk.jpg


And after a quick tickle with some 1500 grit wet and dry:

http://i.imgur.com/rWYHDP4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JQRQJAE.jpg


Once I invest in some anodising equipment the plan will be to give this a nice black anodised finish... assuming the thing works as expected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

I'm waiting for some new end mills and some motivation to re-cut the front plate after my motor mount boo boo, but in the mean time I made a start on a low profile machine vice I designed. Haven't been very happy with the low profile vice I already have and want something much stronger and hopefully more accurate.

This is the overall design, today I made the fixed end:

http://i.imgur.com/FVuyyq5.png

Basically it uses a bolt pattern on the bed for alignment dowels and bolting down, but gives access right down to bed level (or below with a cut out I suppose!) which will be useful when trying to machine or drill taller pieces. I have since tweaked the design slightly to allow the travelling end to be bolted down as well if required for extra rigidity.

Missed taking a photo of the first bits, but basically vertically it is made up of 2 pieces of plate as I don't have any tools long enough to cut the whole thing in one pass and it allows me a bit more flexibility in how it is made.

After machining the two pieces and bolting them together, I popped them into the machine again and faced them down by 0.2mm on each of the main faces to give a nice flat and square face.

http://i.imgur.com/THup4Az.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IGv3aEk.jpg


And after a quick tickle with some 1500 grit wet and dry:

http://i.imgur.com/rWYHDP4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JQRQJAE.jpg


Once I invest in some anodising equipment the plan will be to give this a nice black anodised finish... assuming the thing works as expected.

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Nice work as always.

I'm looking forward to your testing the backlash (or lack thereof) in those nice TBI screws and the bearings.

The reason is that I am going to build a similar small machine to yours, albeit with two ballscrews - driven by one motor and initially I was planning to get the Chinese ones from Fred, with double nuts. But these TBI ballnuts you have are also very tempting, they ooze quality.
Edward

I guess double nuts will always have the edge longer-term in maintaining their backlash free nature (although worth noting TBI do double nuts too if that's what you are after).

I wasn't able to measure any backlash in the limited testing I've tried so far, resolution of the equipment was 0.01mm - more detailed testing will have to wait until the machine is assembled I'm afraid, which could mean waiting quite a long time at this rate!

Great work on the low profile vice system. I made a very much simpler and smaller one that comes in handy but yours looks better so following with interest.
Will the knurled thumbwheel give enough grip to get pressure on the jaws? Perhaps drill radial holes to allow a tommy bar to be inserted to nip it up?

Cheers, yeah I was thinking of adding holes to allow a bar to help tighten it up.

So my wife gave birth to a happy little baby boy last weekend, which has as you may have guessed been consuming most of my play time! I haven't been able to do any milling but I have made a slow start on my anodising setup. I did a lot of reading up over the past week or two about LCD anodising method, and I've decided that the first thing I want to tackle is the anodising tank itself.

I bought a large polypropylene crate (just look for a number 5 and the letters PP) at homebase, which is big enough to fit the largest pieces I want to anodise at a little over 600mm long.

Problem is that I couldn't find anything with the length or depth required in a narrow width, so the crate is about 80L, probably 60 or so when filled to a level that I require. That's a lot of sulphuric acid, even if it is very dilute when using the LCD method. Seems that the recommended concentration for 6 ASF (amps per square foot) is 1:15, so I will need 3-4 litres of sulphuric acid to mix with 60 or so litres of water. It's also going to be very heavy, so my plan is to build a wheeled wooden frame around this crate to support it and make it easier to move around. There are definitely some logistics to consider with this much acid around and I may end up storing the solution in some appropriate plastic drums when not in use to keep things a bit safer.

To help keep the solution cool and with the happy side effect of displacing some volume from the tank thus reducing the amount of acid required I have made a PVC pipe system that I can pump cold water through to help keep the temperature down. Made using 32mm pipe and chemical welding

http://i.imgur.com/NPxjzO1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IBRbFkh.jpg


Next up will be the cathode bus bar and cathodes. From my reading Aluminium cathodes are better than lead in several regards, and means I don't need to worry about eventually disposing of lead contaminated solution.... but it seems the type of aluminium is quite specific for the best results. 6063-T6 is the specific type recommend, and I managed to find some fairly large extrusion in that formulation.

So far I have just cut up the pieces, the angle extrusion will be bolted to the square bus bar using stainless steel bolts (will be above the solution, not in it).

I am also considering my options for agitation. Easy one is air bubbling, but I've seen a few using acid-proof pumps to move the solution around which seems like a better option and would give me a mechanism for pumping the acid out into drums for storage and vice versa.

Anyone who has any experience with anodising I'm always up for helpful info given I'm a noob.




http://i.imgur.com/X6bCkA9.jpg

That contraption looks a little bit like a baby crib. Dont accidentally anodize the newborn :)

Congrats!
Watching your build log with interest.

Congratulations for the new member!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1Jumper10

That contraption looks a little bit like a baby crib. Dont accidentally anodize the newborn :)

Congrats!
Watching your build log with interest.

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That would certainly be one way to get into the newspapers....

Cheers chaps!

I used 6mm size tubing :hysterical: , remember also the aeration, is really important to move the liquid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

I used 6mm size tubing :hysterical: , remember also the aeration, is really important to move the liquid.

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From the baby? :hororr::hysterical:

I've never anodized before but if it's important to agitate the solution of sulfuric acid, I would be reluctant to use air to do it. I wouldn't want to create any kind of vapor to begin with and then I wouldn't want it being carried out into immediate area where it could cause problems. Breathing and corrosion and such. Is there some reason you couldn't use a motor driven polyethylene agitator? Just a thought...

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