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OK, I've got my lathe. I had hoped that it would be a worker when it arrived but I was a bit disappointed as the carriage assembly was hanging out and the whole thing was covered in thick sticky crap. I have now stripped down the carriage assmbly, cleaned and repainted and there is no wear whatsoever. Feeling a bit better about it.
The lathe is a dual imperial metric gearbox and feeds with lubrication.
It looks in generally good order :)
Feeler seems to have copied the Hardinge exactly, so it might be worth checking for wear in the carriage drive gear (a HLV weak spot).
If you don't know already, the apron gearbox uses automatic transmission fluid (e.g. TQF) and Mobil Vactra in the Carriage oiler reservoir.
Very envious of the english/metric gearbox (BTW are those change gear necessary?)
Thanks for the advice on the oil Bill, I was going to use the gearbox oil for my Myford. I've now ordered an Hardinge maintenence manual, so maybe I'll not screw up in future.
I have now stripped down and cleaned the carriage wheel assembly and it shows some wear as you suggested. It looks like some cutting fluid ingress has caused some rot on the drive gear (see thumbnail).
Also, the dual dial models have an idler gear which causes the dials to move at different speeds when selecting imperial or metric (see thumbnail). The pin and idler are very worn on the carriage feed but are near mint on the top slide as you would expect. I don.t know if this is the same in the HLV. Anyway, any idea where I can get spares for these things, as whilst I'm at it I may as well change the pin and idler in all of the feeds. If I can I'll also change the carriage drive gear.
Just to add more work I have extended my shop and will be preparing the floor so that I can move this thing into place, so maybe the pace will slow for a day or two.
The carriage handle gear has taken a bit of a pounding (water/coolant ingress into the apron?) but it's relatively unimportant to the finish you'll get, so don't worry too much. It the gear that that gear drives (IYSWIM), the carriage drive gear, that suffers bearing failure in the Hardinge.
It might be an idea to crack open the apron just to check there's nothing untoward inside. It's not difficult to strip down.
Mine's imperial only it doesn't that the dual scales. You might try ringing ZMT (don't bother emailing they "don't have email in the workshop") but HLV-EMs are like hen's teeth, so you may have to make do and mend. I.e. make a new pin and fit a bronze sleeve into the idler gear.Quote:
I don.t know if this is the same in the HLV. Anyway, any idea where I can get spares for these things,
Not much use rebushing the idler gear, it's well worn (no teeth left), fortunately it's not hardenned so the drive gear is fine. However, I've checked out the Hardinge US site and they have full parts lists for the HLV models including the HLV/EM. As the feeler looks like a pretyy exact copy I'm going to order the idler gears and pins direct from Hardinge. Hardinge UK tell me they do spares for the HLV so maybe I'll strike lucky and not have to order from the US.
You can find the full Hardinge Parts Lists at the follwong URL: http://www.shophardinge.com/partslist.aspx
I think, following Tom's advice. I'll strip down the entire saddle and replace any worn parts whilst I'm at it. There's a pretty good bearing place close to me and I should be able to get all the bearings over the counter. Looking at the parts list, I'm surprised how many bits there are. My previous experience is on a Myford Super 7B so I'm really looking forward to much more accuracy and better finish when this is done.
I'll post more pictures as I go.
I think that would be a good choice mate, will save you doing it later on if you decide you want to. You never know what you may find ether !Quote:
Originally Posted by pfincham
I'v copyed your post over to the Links section as well under [ame="http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=1112"]Hardinge Parts List[/ame] for other people, thanks for sharing that info/link.
Look forward to following your progress, i dont have a lathe and have never used one but i really wish i had one. We never even had one at school so i didnt get the chance there ether !
Just somthing about taking one and doing it back up/restoring it that has my intrest. :beer:
You will be amazed :)Quote:
I'm really looking forward to much more accuracy and better finish when this is done.
Make sure you are sitting down before calling them, failing that move all things with sharp sticky out bits so you don't hit them on the way down..:rofl:
That's a bugger!Quote:
Not much use rebushing the idler gear, it's well worn (no teeth left)
Hardinge gears use an obscure DP (18?) and pressure angle. Feeler may not have copied it exactly. It'd be a good idea to double check them before you buy an expensive Hardinge part
http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...6&d=1236984035
[edit] It's well worth stripping down the carriage.There are oil ways and pipe in the rear of the HLV that should be checked while you're there.
oil distro
BTW later HLV-Hs (not mine :() had a PTFE/teflon coating on the underside of the carriage. Careful, if your Feeler has the same, it is apparently fairly soft and easily damaged.
[edit]
Phew - Just realised you were talking about the EM dial idler gear not the carriage drive gear!
If you means the gear on the end of the carriage handwheel shaft, it's 21Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTodd
teeth, 22/29DP stub form 20deg PA, 1/2" bore, .318 width.
That makes it 1.0235 OD.
Which is a reet weird bastard.
.
They do seem a bit pricey, but the Hardingeus.com has an e commerce option where you can order on line. The idler gear is £36.30 in the UK but $36.00 in the US (£21.90). Maybe I'll order my bits from the States.Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
Unfortunately the idler is out of stock. TYPICAL!!!!
They won't let you ! I tried to order a couple of belts online; it took my order everything seems fine, then the next day I got a call from Hardinge UK saying "you don't want to order from the US you'll have to pay import duty..." etc. etc. When I pressed him for the UK price it was three times that quoted online, plus VAT plus carriage - I told him where to go!.Quote:
Maybe I'll order my bits from the States.
I then got an email from Hardinge US saying they do not except orders from UK!!!
(I am waiting for my brother to go to the US later this year - he'll have some shopping to do :))
Fortunately I have an office in the States, I'll get them to buy them and forward to me. Should save a fair bit that way. If you need bits let me know, maybe we can get them in one hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTodd
I may have to take you up on that; my brother's job in the states has been cancelled and he's been sent to Paris instead :( I could do with a pair of belts.Quote:
If you need bits let me know, maybe we can get them in one hit.
Let me know if you're ordering and I'll sort out the part numbers and some dosh.
No problem with the belts. I won't be placing my order until I have got the thing stripped down and checked out. If you need your belts earlier let me know and I can arrange them separately. If you look on the US web site, they now have an e commerce section, put in the the part numbers for the belts and they will give you a price and availability.
I've now got the carriage apart and guess what! The gear rack is no good. It has been repaired badly, see pics. I think I need a new one. I've been on to Hardinge because they show two types on their site, English and Metric, but nothing about the EM model. They were being quite helpful until I told them it was for a Feeler at which point they told me that their super precision parts were not suitable for that Taiwanese copied crap and cleared down on me.
So, mine has a 70 tooth major and 14 tooth minor. If anyone has a similar gear in their machine can they tell me if it's metric or imperial and I'll order it from Hardinge. It may make my Taiwanese copied crap more accurate!!!
The saddle on my machine, along with the GIB is teflon coated and this looks to be in good nick, however it looks like the cross slide have been reworked to replace the slide surface at some time. It look slike a fairly good job, unless it's supposed to be like this but I doubt it. I don't think that I'll bother with this right now. A little more disturbing is the lead screw which looks to have sheared it's taper pin at some time and has been redrilled to take a thin nut and bolt. This I will look at to maybe get back to the taper pin arrangement.
Everything else looks fine. I would guess that the machine has been completely rebuilt at some time in the past. I'll still change all bearings that I come across as I go as these seem fairly cheap and I can get them from a local bearing supplier.
I always wondered if Feeler's were 'approved' Hardinge copies, I guess I have the answer now :) FWIW I understand that Feeler's are very good and very well made.Quote:
So, mine has a 70 tooth major and 14 tooth minor. If anyone has a similar gear in their machine can they tell me if it's metric or imperial and I'll order it from Hardinge. It may make my Taiwanese copied crap more accurate!!!
Attached is the best picture I have of my (imperial) apron gears I count 14 on the small gear and 70 on the larger one (there's is a bit of guess work involved - so please re-count them and double check)
That's an interesting repair job - something similar was suggested for mine by Jim Rozen over on the practical machinist site:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-h-174652.html with a bit of silver soldering and a spray and re-grind your gear would be probably be perfectly usable.
[edit] BTW if Hardinge insist on a serial number before quoting for parts etc. Mine is HLV-H 397
[edit2] BTW have you tried Feeler for spares?http://www.feeler.com/en_products.asp
[edit3] Thinking about it, your lathe will be imperial i.e. 8tpi lead-screw, 10tpi dials because the dials and gearbox convert english to metric not vice versa. Only an all metric machine would have metric threads and a different carriage gear :)
I make the same count as you, 70 and 14. I had a chat with a mate who has a machine shop. He says that one off gear hobbing is pretty expensive so I guess I'll order the one from Hardinge at 210 dollars. Converting to 130 quid it seems like the simplest method right now. While I'm at it I'll get some other small bits that seem to have gone missing over time.
I'm not really worried about the stupid comments from Hardinge. I know some guys who have had both Hardinge and Feelers at the same time and they say that the feeler compares well.
It cost me £70 quid to have my gear sprayed and ground, so £130 doesn't too bad at all (it's a very nicely made gear ;))Quote:
Converting to 130 quid it seems like the simplest method right now
Just as a check (in case Feeler haven't copied hardinge exactly) ,it'd be worth visually comparing my gear with yours:
http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...1&d=1234469223
http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...6&d=1236984035
The large bearing is 3/4" ID and just under an inch OD (presumably for a press fit)
According to my parts list the hardinge bearing part number is now FLH1481 (Replacing 6700) . I found an equivalent double seal needle roller at Simply Bearings but chose to make a bronze bush instead.
I can't remember the sizes of the small end (I'd guess 7/8"). Hardinge part is LH4144-1
The gear itself is FLH1402 (from mid '71 onwards)
[edit] BTW there's a .pdf parts list etc. here: http://www.chudov.com/manuals/Hardinge/
I just want to say a public thank you to Peter for getting a couple of Hardinge belts for my HLV-H
Cheers mate I owe you one :beer::beer:
Been away on holiday so nothnig done for a while. However, I have received parts from Hardinge so I can get on with it now.
First thing is to get the machine painted, I'll do the tray and leave the cabinet till the end. I have now completed the tail stock. I stipped it down, cleaned it andely checked all parts. Fortunately no wear and it looks like the bearing had been replaced. It's all adjusted and just need fitting.
Right guys, I need to get this bit off so I can paint it. Do I need some kind of "c" key or what. I've had a go at unscrewing but it seems so tight I'm not sure if may be the threads left handed or something. I can undo the locking ring in the middle and loosen the end plate but that's it.
Any ideas.
Hi Pete,Quote:
Originally Posted by pfincham
That's the collet locking ring (it is keyed to the spindle so don't try to turn it), believe it or not it will just pull off - even after 48yrs, my one is still such a good fit, that it will refuse to budge if it isn't pulled absolutely straight.
I suggest you just tap in on all the way with a light (100g) plastic hammer, then grasp it with the 5 fingers of one hand and gently pull it straight back.
Putting it back on is a similar technique; if it doesn't slide on first time you have to stop remove it, take a breath, and try again.
Once the collect locking ring is off, there should be a coiled cir-clip that holds the hand wheel in place. Don't lose the woodruff keys.
BTW tail stock looks great :)
Thanks Bill,
That was fairly easy; I had a couple of goes at tapping all around and then it just pulled off as easy as that.
BTW that hole, twixt spindle and casing, is where the new top belt has to be threaded into, over the intermediate gear bearing and past the spindle pulley - the belt is 1" wide, the gap on the Hardinge is no more than 1/4"Quote:
Originally Posted by pfincham
I looked at it, thought 'impossible'; I had already lost two knuckles and stabbed myself with the switch rod (that you use to hook the old belt off the pulley) while removing the old belt.
Re-read the belt replacement instructions, looked again thought 'definitely impossible'; considered removing the gearbox.
Re-read the belt replacement instructions ; "Cross spindle belt; and feed through gear box headstock and down into pedestal..."
I then realised this is a test of faith: you twist the belt into the form of an early Christian cross (or possibly an Egyptian Ankh) feed in into the hole then, in a piece of magic befitting Derren Brown, the belt materialises in the pedestal.
How this happens remains unquestioned - it is enough to just 'believe'.
The motor belt merely requires the sacrifice of ones remaining knuckles...
Just came across this Cyclematic 618 Service manual, it might help if any parts of your Feeler vary from the Hardinge:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20582663/HARDINGE-HLVH-SERVICE-PARTS"]HARDINGE HLV-H SERVICE & PARTS
Thanks Bill, that's really usefull; I looked everywhere for one of these. By the way, things have severely slowed down over the last couple of weeks. I've had a terrible job stabilising the paint. I had a local paint supplier mix me some single pack epoxy for brush painting which gave a supurb finish. unfortunately they failed to tell me this was designed as a single top coat and took about 7 - 10 days to fully dry. So, when I applied the second coat two days later patches wrinkled up all over the place. I have been rubbing down and primer etching bits for the last couple of weeks and am almost there. Hopefully I will be able to apply the top coat again in the not to distant.
BTDT had to redo several parts of mine because of the bloody paint wrinkling like that :(Quote:
when I applied the second coat two days later patches wrinkled up all over the place.
I finally got round to painting the top coat for the bed, headstock and gearbox. Having got a handle on the paint problem I found that a light rub down to the gearbox, followed by a really good clean using a spirit based degreaser was the best start. I've used etching primer on the bare metal followed by a number of coats of high build primer to fill in the chips. Rub this down to a nice smooth finish, then top coat.
After each coat I cleaned down with the spirit decreaser and used a tack rag prior to the paint application.
It sounds easy but was a real pain before I got the format right. I've had the heat on in the workshop for 10 days now and will leave it on for another week while the top coat fully cures.
Have a look at the pics. not bad for brush finish!!
Shiney :) (all looks strangely familiar)
I have to do the same now to the [ame="http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1231"]Haighton Major[/ame] (Hardinge UM copy) horizontal mill that I've just acquired. I've just scraped all the old paint off of the tub. The main casting has been stripped and hand-painted straight over the fettling - it'll need several coat to cover the mess.Quote:
followed by a number of coats of high build primer to fill in the chips.
BTW What's that little machine in the background of pic 4?
It's a Clarkson tool and cutter grinder I've had for some time now. I've acquired an Herbert hand operated surface grinder which I'll get around to eventually and I hope that I'll be able to let the Clarkson go to reclaim space.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTodd
I'll have a look at your Haighton Major thread, as my next task is to get away from my Myford Mill and maybe get a Bridgeport.
I've got the bed and headstock painted so it's time to get the saddle back on. Having received my bits from Hardinge I've compared them with the Feeler originals and all likes good to me. Seems like Hardinge have managed a perfect copy Ha Ha. btw have a look at the rack gear itself, it's now induction hardenned so I guess Hardinge has recognised it's weakness!
Measuring the rack gear it seems like it has had more reworking than I thought, as well as the rack gear itself being remade, both bearing faces had been recut so I've got to bore out the existing bearings in the saddle. The cover plate bearing is fine, see picks but getting the saddle onto the mill is a real pain in the arse. Looks like I'll have to get some jacks so that I can get it square. Unfortunately I dropped my Myford on it's head moving it to get the feeler in so now lathe for the time being, other wise I'd knock out the bearing and bore it close befoer replacing.
I also looked at removing the clutches, but I am concerned that the springs may be a challenge to get back on.
"Did you do this Bill? and if so how did it go"
Hmm 'Looks like Hardinge have changed the gear and the apron cover bearing to suit; Mine, like yours, has a small (5/8"?) apron cover bearing.
http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...6&d=1236984035
The clutches come apart and reassemble easily; there is enough thread on the centre nut to be able to start it with a light push.
It's well worth taking them apart just to check them, and it will allow you to make sure the threading/power feed interlock bar (which slides in a slot in the apron cover under the clutches) is free to move (it is spring loaded towards the threading lever so, if it sticks, the power feed lever will not move after you've closed/openned the half-nuts)
That's interesting, both bearing faces are now 20mm. My oringinal is 5/8 and 19.83mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTodd
I'll whip the clutches apart now, I was worried that they'd fire the spring across the workshop.
btw the saddle is an absolute bugger to get onto the mill table, it weighs a ton and does'n seem to have good faces to mount it on square. I'm going to get some solid jacks to set this up, just to bore out 0.17mm. Oh well, better get it done. I'll post picks when it's set up.
hold on Pete, I nay have given you a bum steer about the clutch springs...
The manual shows the use of a plate across the spring as a compressor prior to undoing the nut. I don't recall doing that, but I now have a vague memory that I used a Valve spring compressor to put them back together - I'm sure it was no great drama.
Have you got a large angle plate that you could mount the top of the saddle to?
I've got a large angle plate and I had originally thought of doing that. However it seemed easy just to mount the saddle the other way on blocks with the top of the saddle hanging over the mill table. Having done that the angle plate seems to have gone from my mind. This getting old thing is a bummer. I'll have a go at that as it will save me from scrounging uo the jacks. Thanks Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTodd
By the way I was looking at your thread and noticed that you had modified the saddle bearing to take an oil seal. The feeler has an oil seal fitted to the outer side of the saddle bearing and I got one from Hardinge who have obviously added that also as a modification. The Feeler was manufactured in 1987 so is somewhat younger than your Hardinge.
I'll take some pics and post them next time.
As for the clutches, I've got a manual so should have looked it up. I'll check on the method for compressing the springs and get them off. I should have a valve spring compressor somewhere, if not I guess I'll have to make a fixture, if I can do it withour a lathe!!
After a lot of messing about, I finally ditched the angle plate idea and the jacks and went back to the parallels. I measured various area of land between the saddle front plate mounting and the back of the casting and sorted out a set of parallels that gave me and end to end variation of .002" and back to front of .0025; good enough for me. Set it true and reamed it to 20mm. Fours hours of messing about and four minutes to do it.
I then set out to get the clutches off. Taking Bills advice I used a valve spring compressor. 15 quid from Halfords buys some flimsy thing that just about did it. Not like the simple G cramp type from 30 years ago. They're all stripped down and ready for cleaning. God knows if the clamp will re-compress them to get the clutches back on.
I've changed all the bearings in the casting now and find I'm two short for the front plate. They should be easy enough to source from the local bearing supplier so I'm shooting for completion by next weekend before a trip to Florida.
The saddle's now back on and having readjusted the gibs there is some wear to the bed; when I get it right for the headstock end it's tight at the tail stock. I'll leave it that way as most of the work will be done at the headstock end.
I've now assembled the saddle drive. All bearings replaced and trhe clutches reassmbled. It all seems to have gone back together smoothly so after a trial run I've sealed it with gasket sealer.
So for a test I assmbled and fitted the saddle handwheel assembly. This again turned out to be a performance. Because the hand wheel is dual metric/imperial there is a 32 tooth idler gear that drives the metric dial at a different speed than the imperial dial, quite clever really. The idler sits on a 5mm dowel pin and both were so worn that they no longer worked. I sourced a new gear from Hardinge, not bad for 32 bucks (1 buck per tooth) along with the dowel, now wouldn't you guess is, the new dowel is 3/16 where the old one was 5mm. I guess at some point there was an upgrade and they still stock the old size. So the five mintue job of knocking out the old pin changed to soucing new pins, grinding to size and reaming out the centre of the new gear. It fits fine now.
Having assembled everything I find that manually driving the saddle is not a clean smooth operation. I'm hoping that this is because both clutches are engaged. I have to finish the clutch controls to find out and that may not get done before I go on hols.
Bill, if your out there is it likely that the clutches are making the drive feel tight??
It's coming on nicely :)
Do you have the covers and levers in place? If not you'll be feeling the cross-slide gears spinning as you move the carriage. [one nice Hardinge feature is the ability to cut a perfect 30' taper by engaging both cross-feed and carriage feed at the same time]Quote:
Bill, if your out there is it likely that the clutches are making the drive feel tight??
I can only just feel the clutch drag on the cross slide if I wind the handle fast. Otherwise, the clutches are free.
The clutches should be adjusted to "...engage and disengage when the ball lever is between 10' and 20' above horizontal."