Hardinge Lathe CNC Retrofit/Conversion

So I bought the Hardinge (and Herbert) lathes that Gary was selling a few months ago.

Fast forward and I have selected a controller, replacement AC Spindle (Im not going to fuss with the DC system) and AC Servos for the X and Y Axis from SZGH, inspired partially from JazzCNC's experience of them (and my own) as well as others such as Hood and other 'known' hobby folk.

So, stuff arrived today, I think I am fortunate, I'm hearing of other people stuff from China being cancelled due to C19, so I think I was lucky.

The replacement items is the 2 axis control system with their 'C' Panel, 2 x 750W Servo motors and a 7.5 KW Servo for the spindle. The spindle is 'down' on the DC motor's torque figures however not by much. Going any larger would have needed major physical work on the mounting whereas here, I should get away with a simple adaptor plate.

The spindle motor on its own weighs over 60 kg, a beast of a thing. I dont have 3 phase yet, they have told me it will run off single phase (reduced performance) however that is enough to get the machine running and working. 3 Phase will be sorted at a point.

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When they say reduced performance on single phase, it shouldn't be by much. The main difference is that the input current is shared between 4 rectifier diodes rather than 6. The dc voltage ripple inside is slightly higher but of no concern. It should work identically, with a slight (10-20%) reduction in S1 continuous power rating. I'd be interested to hear what derating they recommend.

I'd be surprised if you got anywhere near 7.5kW continuous shaft power on a machine like this. I'm guessing you bought this for low speed torque as much as anything, at which operating point the input power will be a fair bit less than 7.5kW. Personally I wouldn't bother with the expense of installing 3 phase when you could spend that money on more machine tools....

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Originally Posted by Muzzer

When they say reduced performance on single phase, it shouldn't be by much. The main difference is that the input current is shared between 4 rectifier diodes rather than 6. The dc voltage ripple inside is slightly higher but of no concern. It should work identically, with a slight (10-20%) reduction in S1 continuous power rating. I'd be interested to hear what derating they recommend.

I'd be surprised if you got anywhere near 7.5kW continuous shaft power on a machine like this. I'm guessing you bought this for low speed torque as much as anything, at which operating point the input power will be a fair bit less than 7.5kW. Personally I wouldn't bother with the expense of installing 3 phase when you could spend that money on more machine tools....

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Thanks Muzzer.

Ive been quoted around £4500 for 3 phase. I am limited at this type of machine at current levels but it remains an option.

Yep, I was willing to take a chance on this setup and running it on Single Phase. It will certainly use all the current available to it but yes, 7.5 KW of actual cutting load is a lot. If the machine is sold to someone else, at least they know its capable if connected to a suitable power supply but for my needs, I doubt Ill ever need that.

The hardinge has a belt / pulley setup so I Can mess with ratios to get what I need but yes, generally low torque for materials that are hard or like thread cutting where you might be using slow RPM but need the torque.

That's certainly one hell of a motor! You seem to have bought all the right bits there and from what Jazz reports, SZGH seem to be good to deal with.

I'll be watching with interest!

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Originally Posted by Muzzer

It should work identically, with a slight (10-20%) reduction in S1 continuous power rating. I'd be interested to hear what derating they recommend.

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The SZGH engineer I spoke to estimated around 20% derate on the 11Kw 1200rpm Motor I got for the Fadal.
I won't be running it on a single phase but did ask so if I sell it to someone I can tell them the Derate. I haven't fitted it yet so can't confirm this but I will run it on single-phase to see the difference.

So, first impression of the kit is good. I agree with JazzCNC, the cabling is good quality and nice to see that its all included. There is also a dedicated turret input for an 'up to 8 way' location which is helpful.

I wasnt aware of the IO board, pity, would have ordered one but will manage without or get one at a stage.

I managed to get one of the motors connected and running. Was getting errors but didnt have a manual for the servo driver but was sent this over the weekend and it looks like it might just have been a connection issue to the encoder.

On the turret side, they will help write the macro once I explain the tool change logic. On the Hardinge theres a few solenoids but nothing odd as such. Fortunately Centroid have published a retrofit document for their kit which is useful and can be modified for use for this implementation.

So workshop is starting to take form and the lathe has been moved onto (into) the workshop. So between the cold weather and other stuff, Ill start with the retrofit.

Chaz - I expect you've fixed the "servo error" issue by now, but I've also been setting up a 3-axis mill system for a mate (project on hold pending him getting some mechanical bits sorted) and had all the SZGH kit configured on his coffee table for testing. I found exactly the same problem until all three servos were connected. I was a bit worried when I tried with just one and kept getting errors... Seems like a nice bit of kit, though.

Looking forward to seeing this lathe project progress - good luck!

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Originally Posted by Neale

Chaz - I expect you've fixed the "servo error" issue by now, but I've also been setting up a 3-axis mill system for a mate (project on hold pending him getting some mechanical bits sorted) and had all the SZGH kit configured on his coffee table for testing. I found exactly the same problem until all three servos were connected. I was a bit worried when I tried with just one and kept getting errors... Seems like a nice bit of kit, though.

Looking forward to seeing this lathe project progress - good luck!

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I haven't had this issue but I'm using Absolute encoders and I think you and Chaz are using Incremental which might make a difference as the position is saved in memory and talks to the controller first so doesn't rely on the motors encoder to report back, however, every so often I do get one drive fault on start-up. Can be any of the drives, it's random, reset and it's fine never does it again no matter how many times you switch on/off.!! . . .It's a strange one.?
This is just on the bench still has I haven't had time to fit on the machine and It's probably because it's rough arse wired on the bench and running through a multiplug extension cable on a 13A plug with no Inrush or line filters but I'll be contacting SZGH before fitting to check but thought I'd mention it just in case anyone else is having similar issues.

I've been playing with a 4-axis controller, and I had assumed that it would have the equivalent of "active high" or somesuch on the error signals from the servo drives, so a disconnected driver would show as OK. Not so! However, it does seem that the 4th axis has been disabled so it does not throw an error. Maybe SZGH did this in their initial configuration (although they did make one mistake - the estop input from the MPG was configured the wrong way round so that you needed to hit the estop to make it work! Soon fixed).

One slight frustration that might be relevant to Chaz as well. There is an encoder output from the servo, and the controller has encoder inputs available. Presumably these are for closed-loop operation although I think that you can configure the coordinate readouts to use them. However, the provided cables, excellent as they appear to be in all other ways, make no provision for connecting encoder output to controller input. My mate who owns the machine would have liked the ability to use the controller readouts as a DRO for manual operation with the table handwheels. It looks at first sight as if you would need to hack into the cables or connectors to provide this capability.

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Originally Posted by Neale

My mate who owns the machine would have liked the ability to use the controller readouts as a DRO for manual operation with the table handwheels. It looks at first sight as if you would need to hack into the cables or connectors to provide this capability.

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Maybe not as bad as he thinks because the hand wheels would make tuning the servos a nightmare, better off without them and use the MPG. But it wouldn't be a massive job to hook them up. Thou to be honest with all the cables they stuff into those DB connectors I wouldn't like to to remove the covers.:cower:

Good point - I'll tell him to take off the handwheels and learn to use the MPG. He's only used the machine in manual mode because of issues with the original Anilam controller but that did provide a DRO function so conventional use was straightforward.

You mention servo tuning. I have a copy of the SZGH servo tuning application, but they have confirmed that it is only available in Chinese. I've had a quick look but I really couldn't get very far at all with it. Have you looked at servo tuning with these SZGH setups?

You can do just as good a job translating the document yourself as they would. After all, they just use Baidu Translate themselves, which is very much like Google Translate.

If you have the document in Word format, you can right click almost anywhere in the document and select "Translate". You may need a recent version of Word for this - I have Office 365. Select the whole document from the options and there you are. I'm pretty impressed with the Microsoft translation. You can also paste selected paragraphs into Google Translate for a second opinion if the result is a bit hard to follow.

If you only have a PDF version of the document, you can use Adobe's free online PDF-to-Word converter and it will do a pretty good job. It will usually cope well with tables, illustrations, formatting etc. I've done this with several foreign PDF docs recently (Chinese and German) and am surprised how well they work nowadays. Only 2-3 years ago it was a lot more painful, with somewhat more "mixed" results.

As Jazz says, the handwheels can screw up your servo tuning. I removed mine in the end, 'cos it was impossible to get sensible / acceptable behaviour from my DMMs otherwise. And the MPG is much more useful - you can position the handwheel where it is most convenient (eg during touchoff) and you can also change how much movement you get when you turn the wheel.

Good thought, Muzzer, although it's slightly more awkward than that. There isn't any documentation as such, it's just an applicaiton that is all in Chinese. You can guess a couple of the usual menu items based on position, and I did find one entry that gave me a COM port prompt, but that's as far as it goes! I'll need to look at whether I can extract the symbols from the app itself and translate those. It sounds like Chaz, Dean and I are all in roughly the same position - controller and servos/drivers all set up on the bench (or coffee table, in my case) so not in a position to actually do any tuning at the moment. So fingers crossed that a translated version will turn up before we actually need it!

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Originally Posted by Neale

Good thought, Muzzer, although it's slightly more awkward than that. There isn't any documentation as such, it's just an applicaiton that is all in Chinese. You can guess a couple of the usual menu items based on position, and I did find one entry that gave me a COM port prompt, but that's as far as it goes! I'll need to look at whether I can extract the symbols from the app itself and translate those. It sounds like Chaz, Dean and I are all in roughly the same position - controller and servos/drivers all set up on the bench (or coffee table, in my case) so not in a position to actually do any tuning at the moment. So fingers crossed that a translated version will turn up before we actually need it!

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Clive S gave me a good tip.? Use your mobile phone and a translate App. Just point camera at the screen and it will translate all the writing.
I've used this several times now and it works great. Infact that's what I did when I screwed up the parameters in the controller and turned them all back to Chinese and couldn't read the parameter description.

Regards the tuning then No I'm not at that stage, I'm waiting for you to suss it out first...:victorious:

Never come across an app like that - I'll give it a try and see where it gets me. I'm sure that all the usual translators can handle the chinese characters for things like "PID internal loop parameters"! I'm sure that it's worth a go, though, just to get to the right menu items.

Thanks for the pointer. It's not all just a North-South slanging match:beer:

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Originally Posted by Neale

Thanks for the pointer. It's not all just a North-South slanging match:beer:

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Not at all, I even speak to Clive-S and he's on the other side of the Big Hill in Red Rose county, the place a true Yorkshireman's arch-enemy lives...:joker:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Not at all, I even speak to Clive-S and he's on the other side of the Big Hill in Red Rose county, the place a true Yorkshireman's arch-enemy lives...:joker:

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That's only because I send him PG Tips :joker:

Try Google Translate - I assume that's what Jazz is referring to. When you select the camera icon, it will recognise and translate any Chinese characters and replace them live on the screen. I've used this quite extensively in China (was surprised they hadn't blocked it - perhaps it was working offline) and it certainly came in handy. The translation seemed to vary depending how close you held the camera (how large the characters) and some of the results were pretty amusing!

You can also use the microphone for input but you might run the risk of getting punched, molested or arrested, depending where you use it.

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Originally Posted by Clive S

That's only because I send him PG Tips :joker:

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He can be a bit of a monkey at times :hysterical:

So started to look at the lathe in a bit more detail today.

The servo motors will be a direct fit exchange, courtesy of some spacers that Gary had already made. I'm not sure if the cables can be routed without taking connectors off (motor and encoder).

The spindle pulley wont work for the new spindle motor. Shaft size is now 38mm whereas on the old DC motor its around 36mm (or the nearest imperial size to that).

Found a replacement pulley / bushing which should work.

Was trying to remove the spindle 'mounting' system, removed all bolts, cant get it out. There's clearly some adhesive in places like a sealant, could be that. I'm hopeful making a adapter plate for the slightly smaller motor should be straight forward - just need to get one of my mills up and running.

I'd like to replace the V belts - any idea on how much work is involved to get them out - do I need to mess with the spindle (hopefully not).

Was fortunate to find a wiring diagram (and some notes) in the door, thanks Gary. Was looking for the limits / end stop but not found them yet - at least the drawing gives a massive help as wires / terminal blocks are marked. I believe these are all hall effect sensors so need to work out how to wire them up. I note too that there is X Coarse Home and X Fine Home marked in pencil, first time Ive seen that ..... will need to work out how to use these.

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Quick update - built a temp box out of ply for the controller + MPG plate. Opened up the cover for the encoder and noted that the limits are not hall effect, took a quick video, there is a cam system depressing the limits.

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So I got 3 of the hall effects working for the X axis.

The Z axis has proximity sensors that didnt look to be working. So I replaced with these.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/proxi...nsors/1885225/

These allow reconfig from PNP to NPN etc. Ive tried them in PNP, controller doesnt like it and the engineering team tell me I cant use them in PNP mode. So reconfig the sensors .... ok, but I need something called IO Link which I dont have and looks to be pricy.

These sensors looked decent and they are short - I dont have a lot of space where they fit (probably 40mm max).

Parameter 21 and 22 (axis menu from memory) allows a change from NO to NC, but the engineer reckons that wont allow PNP to be used.

He has also suggested using a 2803 IC to swap the PNP to NPN, so this might be a cheaper option (not ideal).

Thoughts?

I've ordered this - suggests it can take PNP to NPN, so a quick (almost cheap) fix if it works.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Converter-M...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

What is the actual input needed for the controller?
PNP switches to positive, whereas NPN switched to negative.

If the input requires being switched to negative, then PNP won't work, but if the input lets you wire both sides of an opto, then either can work.

It needs to draw down to 0V to trigger. Ive ordered that conversion board, hopefully that works.

Yeah, that'll need a NPN type input.
That board should do what you need.

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Originally Posted by Chaz

So, first impression of the kit is good. I agree with JazzCNC, the cabling is good quality and nice to see that its all included. There is also a dedicated turret input for an 'up to 8 way' location which is helpful.

I wasnt aware of the IO board, pity, would have ordered one but will manage without or get one at a stage.

I managed to get one of the motors connected and running. Was getting errors but didnt have a manual for the servo driver but was sent this over the weekend and it looks like it might just have been a connection issue to the encoder.

On the turret side, they will help write the macro once I explain the tool change logic. On the Hardinge theres a few solenoids but nothing odd as such. Fortunately Centroid have published a retrofit document for their kit which is useful and can be modified for use for this implementation.

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If you have not made an IO board yet i think it is well worth the money to buy theirs, it will save a lot of work. I think they are about £50. It reduces the chance of damaging the controller by incorrect wiring, the instructions are in English.although i had to ask for the pdf instructions because the one included in the manual was incorrect. I can send a pdf copy of the I/o manual if you wish.

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Originally Posted by Colin Barron

If you have not made an IO board yet i think it is well worth the money to buy theirs, it will save a lot of work. I think they are about £50. It reduces the chance of damaging the controller by incorrect wiring, the instructions are in English.although i had to ask for the pdf instructions because the one included in the manual was incorrect. I can send a pdf copy of the I/o manual if you wish.

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Thanks. I wasnt aware of the IO Board when I ordered. I'm probably going to get another servo drive / motor from them for my Bridgeport to run as a Spindle, so will add that to the order.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Chaz

Thanks. I wasnt aware of the IO Board when I ordered. I'm probably going to get another servo drive / motor from them for my Bridgeport to run as a Spindle, so will add that to the order.

Thanks

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The i/o board has labels options pnp/npn jumper options which may sort out prox types. Another option if you are using an automatic tool changer (see hoods videos on you tube) is to use a separate controller.

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Originally Posted by Colin Barron

The i/o board has labels options pnp/npn jumper options which may sort out prox types. Another option if you are using an automatic tool changer (see hoods videos on you tube) is to use a separate controller.

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Thanks, have seen his vid.

The SZGH team reckon coding my turret via their PLC shouldnt be too difficult - I need to explain the logic and they will write it (I can then see how its done and tweak as needed).

How does your turret work? Servo? standard motor? other?

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Originally Posted by Hood

How does your turret work? Servo? standard motor? other?

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Hi Hood. Not got it working yet but its lifted and rotated with air.

I need to decide if I use external PLC or theirs ..... but not a strength of mine.

Have an issue with the driver for spindle. I discussed 220V single phase but the one Ive been sent is 380V 3 phase only. Pity, so will need to make a plan.

Spindle bracket modded and installed but I cant run the spindle yet.

Should be possible to do the turret via macro I would think.
That is how I have done mine.
Before I bought the control I enquired about getting my turret working and eventually I managed to explain how it worked, Mike kept thinking because it was servo I would need a 3rd axis. Anyway I got a macro, it wouldn't have worked but I was able to see how things were done and thus modify it to work.

A friend is currently putting the SZGH on his Beaver TC15 lathe and I have been helping out with it. His is a servo driven turret and previously I wrote a macro for Mach to work it as the A axis and it worked well. He ordered a 3 axis lathe control and it is a C axis that is used on the SZGH for it. The macro from Mike worked sometimes and other times wouldn't, we tried all sorts of things to get it working consistently but in the end we gave up and I wrote a new macro but with using G90 moves rather than the G91 Mike had used. It seems to be working fine now although he did say he had a fault today for some reason.

Shame about the spindle, do you have 3 phase? If not then maybe a rotary converter would be the easiest/cheapest as I wouldn't imagine it cheap to send the motor/drive back for replacement.

Ecogoo 240V/1Ph to 380V/3Ph inverter? Available on Aliexpress. No, I don't have one but various people in the forum have used them.

Mate of mine is refitting a mill with an SZGH controller (with a bit of assistance from me) and I suspect I'm going to be writing a macro or two for things like tool-height setting and probing. I don't remember seeing anything about macro programming in the manuals we have - is there a specific manual on this?

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Originally Posted by Neale

Ecogoo 240V/1Ph to 380V/3Ph inverter? Available on Aliexpress. No, I don't have one but various people in the forum have used them.

Mate of mine is refitting a mill with an SZGH controller (with a bit of assistance from me) and I suspect I'm going to be writing a macro or two for things like tool-height setting and probing. I don't remember seeing anything about macro programming in the manuals we have - is there a specific manual on this?

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Ive got 2 of them. I can try but I'm not sure if that would power the spindle System without causing issues. Keep in mind that the power from the Ecogoo 9000 and 9100 is higher voltage (chopped) to make 380V.

I think you will need a rotary to power the spindle drive.

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Originally Posted by Hood

Should be possible to do the turret via macro I would think.
That is how I have done mine.
Before I bought the control I enquired about getting my turret working and eventually I managed to explain how it worked, Mike kept thinking because it was servo I would need a 3rd axis. Anyway I got a macro, it wouldn't have worked but I was able to see how things were done and thus modify it to work.

A friend is currently putting the SZGH on his Beaver TC15 lathe and I have been helping out with it. His is a servo driven turret and previously I wrote a macro for Mach to work it as the A axis and it worked well. He ordered a 3 axis lathe control and it is a C axis that is used on the SZGH for it. The macro from Mike worked sometimes and other times wouldn't, we tried all sorts of things to get it working consistently but in the end we gave up and I wrote a new macro but with using G90 moves rather than the G91 Mike had used. It seems to be working fine now although he did say he had a fault today for some reason.

Shame about the spindle, do you have 3 phase? If not then maybe a rotary converter would be the easiest/cheapest as I wouldn't imagine it cheap to send the motor/drive back for replacement.

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No 3 phase. Focusing funds on the machines and fixing the workshop. Ive got a quote for 3 Phase but not high on my todo list yet but its a pain and compromise unfortunately.

If the motor is fine, getting a new drive might solve it (I'm probably going to be getting another unit from them (2.2 or 3KW spindle for my Bridgeport to take away the standard squirrel cage motor and get more speed / torque) and an IO board for this setup. So adding in the controller might not be too bad.

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Originally Posted by Neale

.... I don't remember seeing anything about macro programming in the manuals we have - is there a specific manual on this?

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There is a macro manual, also a PLC one and also a PLC programme which is handy for looking at the ladder but I found it easier to alter the ladder on the control.

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Originally Posted by Hood

There is a macro manual, also a PLC one and also a PLC programme which is handy for looking at the ladder but I found it easier to alter the ladder on the control.

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I see some PLC info in the one manual but it doesnt show how to create or similar for Tool Change. Anything you can share please Hood?