Looking for the impossible? A cnc router for 1k? is it possible?

Hey guys,

I have been looking around these forums and others for a good few days now and I'm really starting to procrastinate and I'm jumping from one link to the next looking at different kits. ALL of them have mixed reviews and some with slightly better reviews than others. At the moment I don't really have the time for building my own from scratch. I'm jumping from one project to the next in my life and I want to actually get stuck in and not spend ages trying to collect the parts etc. Just ask my wife.. lol I'm sure she could offer a list of jobs that are still unfinished around the house!
I'm 38 now and recently suffered from ill health.. (hopefully in recovery) and looking at working for myself, at least supporting my wife's wage by doing hobby work etc. I'm not well enough currently to hold down a full time job (some days I am not well enough to work) and it's unfair on a future employer to have to cover my absences.

I'm looking at making items from wood/mdf and occasionally light aluminium jobs. For signs, little gifts, personalised stuff etc.. I don't expect to make a fortune, but I would like to supplement our income while I'm recovering. Also I just love to keep busy and use my hands. I've always been in engineering and I just love to build things and be 'hands on' I got stuck in an office job a few years back and that almost sent me crazy!

So what I'm asking is probably much the same as other guys here, I have read too MANY bad reviews of the chinese imports and I would ideally like to try and use something from the UK. I appreciate 1k is not alot to spend on a CNC router. But I do have a limited budget and this is going to have pay for itself eventually and not become a very expensive paperweight.

I don't need something that is going to offer military spec accuracy. But I would like something that has good value for money and will keep me busy for a couple of years. I would like the working area to be around the A3 region.

Because of this I am tempted by the chinese 6040 model BUT, I cannot justify getting something that may well break within 2 hrs of turning it on!

If you guys could advise me on the best kits for around 1k OR indeed if anyone here would be able to help build something like this with me I really would be grateful. (I have my own computer for the project)

Any advice please guys would be welcome.

thanks

andy

Andy,
Those 6040 work out to about £1200 all in so if you are fixed on 1K you need to think again. You cannot compare one of this to a UK sourced one purely on cost for £1200 i cannot buy all the bits to build one.
The 6040 look to be far better made / spec'd than the cheaper 3040, some sellers are including a water cooled 0.37Kw high speed motor and inverter wheras some have the universal brushed motor that seems to give problems.

With any of these the weak point is the electronics, namely the drivers, drivers are always the weak point on a stepper driven CNC.
Good news is they are quite universal and easy to swap for better units.

Shortly I will be buying a 6040, just no room at the moment, need to get rid of some of the older production machinery. Basically I have costed the whole rig plus having to change 3 drivers if necessary, say another £150. Once done I will have a better machine than a 3K UK sourced model.

Hi John,

Thanks ever so much for your reply. I "did" have a fixed cost in mind. I guess it's a psychological barrier.. Perhaps I'm just a miser at heart? A grand is indeed alot of money to save and for a hobby it's a stretch. BUT, as I'm looking at making some money with it, it's a case of speculate to accumulate. Not sure my wife will be so keen though? Going to have to sell it to her that it will mean less time that I'll spend in the house getting in her way.. Get some more 'man' time in my "office" i.e our garage ;-)

I like your idea though John re: buying the 6040 as an actual base and then upgrading drivers etc.. Without having a CNC it's difficult to machine components to make your own. Then you end up with a kit with bits missing etc. At least if I do go and buy one of these at least it can be improved/ uprated as and when required. I fear that if I went down the route of making my own it would take me too long and the impetus would be gone..

My next question is when we say £1200 all in. I presume that's including any VAT (if required paying) Also what about import costs? If it's shipped from the UK i.e Portsmouth seems to be a common ebay sellers address do we pay import costs? If it's from a bonded warehouse then yes I guess so. I could stomach the £1200 but to pay import taxes on top what would that take us upto?

Just my thoughts, what do you think? I am sourly tempted now you have put that seed in my head John! ;-)

Andy,

For cost and budget JohnS is correct, getting a machine at or below the £1K mark requires a lot of help from a lot of folks. If you want to look at a machine and ask a lot more questions directly I am in Edinburgh and more then glad to help some one out in getting started or looking at cost. The 3040 machines are very small (they will fit on my machine with the 3040's X axis (long) set along my Y axis. If you want PM me and will see what help I can give. Warning I am finishing the tuning and set up of my machine so a bit busy myself.

Michael

Don't be put off by the Chinese ones they are great. It is always possible to pick holes in something, but for the cost they don't really put a foot wrong. Just make sure it gets packed well for shipping.

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Originally Posted by Tenson

Don't be put off by the Chinese ones they are great.

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They're great until you've used a properly designed machine, then you realise the difference.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your kind offer, got a feeling that as you fairly close to me I may well take you up on that! :whistling: I can see that it's going to be difficult on my budget to get something that is of good quality. I'm definitely tempted to go down the 6040 route. It's of a high enough spec for me to rule out purchasing the 3020 which I was thinking of until I read some of the reviews here. Thank god I did read up on them! I reckon when I get 'well and truly bitten by the bug' look at building my own machine. But for now I think it's going to have to be an "off the peg" solution. I have already come a long way in my ambitions as I was initially going to self build an MDF kit.

The 6040 is probably about the right kind of size for me.. well at least for now anyway. I have seen alot of smaller desktop machines but I don't want to limit myself straight away with one of those just because of my budget.

Thanks again Michael I'm going to have a trawl around now and look at your machine! Good luck with getting it set up.

Cheers

Andy

Thankyou Tenson

I appreciate your opinion. It's just a shame that the EU and UK have become so expensive when it comes to manufacturing. We used to be the workshop of the world. I feel guilty buying Chinese. This is part of the reason why our automotive industry failed. I guess when it comes down to getting as much value as you can for your money it's the only way to go when you're on a shoestring.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

They're great until you've used a properly designed machine, then you realise the difference.

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I do have to agree with you Jonathan, you do get what you pay for. It's all about fitness for purpose. It's like trying to buy a BMW on fiat money.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

They're great until you've used a properly designed machine, then you realise the difference.

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That's not really the point is it? There is always something better.Unless going DIY I don't think the 6040 will be easily beaten. It's not that badly made anyway, it uses 16mm solid alu plate and supported Y axis rails. The feed-rates will be quite slow but you have to compromise something when you have a limited budget.

I think I could certainly do worse than the 6040. Tenson I can tell that you are obviously more than happy with your purchase. Is it likely that I'll have to pay import on it, if it's already in the country??

thanks

andy

Not sure to be honest. I paid import on my CNC3040 but it was shipped from China. However they put the value down as £100.

I'll be selling my CNC3040 when I finish building my DIY machine. At least the buyer can know it is shipping within the UK and it all works.

Andy,

YOu won't pay import but the fees you see on the site. The massive postage you see on them is to fold, first to pay off the bond that the UK government has on the shipping warehouse where these machines are being stored and second to ensure they meet the minimum profit margin that The Chinese government manager has set for the product. Being a business owner I can tell you that the cost of doing business in the UK coupled with China keeping their currency value low makes it difficult for many companies to compete. There are other additional reasons but this is not the place to go into them. Good luck and if you need help let me know.

Michael

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Originally Posted by itsmillertime

I do have to agree with you Jonathan, you do get what you pay for. It's all about fitness for purpose. It's like trying to buy a BMW on fiat money.

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I resemble that remark. :confused:

I have just bought two Fiat trucks. Bummer.. Do BMW's make 3 tonners ?

All bmw's weigh 3 tonnes!!!

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Originally Posted by Tenson

That's not really the point is it? There is always something better.Unless going DIY I don't think the 6040 will be easily beaten. It's not that badly made anyway, it uses 16mm solid alu plate and supported Y axis rails. The feed-rates will be quite slow but you have to compromise something when you have a limited budget.

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Which is the weak part of the 6040 that is making the feed rates slow? (& can this be upgraded?)

Actually I have a CNC3040 but it looks like the 6040 uses a similar motor controller given the enclosure size. I'm new to all this so I may be wrong but I suspect the motor controller is the weak link. It looks like it is an all-in-one 3 axis board like the CNC3040 uses and it runs on about 24 Volts. If you look at the driver circuits from ZappAutomation and the like they run on 50-80V. The motors are of course also a consideration but I guess just going by the size of them, they could take a bit more power.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. :smile:

Also, given the response of the people I purchased my unit from, it seems there is a central manufacturere and most of the items on eBay are from resellers. Does anyone know who the original maker of these designs is? Is it www.cncdiy.org?

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Originally Posted by Tenson

Also, given the response of the people I purchased my unit from, it seems there is a central manufacturere and most of the items on eBay are from resellers. Does anyone know who the original maker of these designs is? Is it www.cncdiy.org?

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I doubt it...that cncdiy hasn't been updated since last summer (I don't even think they're trading right now -check out the comments on here ..... http://cncdiy.forumr.biz/f1-cncdiy-s-machines !!)

I think YooCNC are quite a large manafacturer (& certainly appear to be the supplier to cncdiy)

Tenson and Michael appreciate the info on the "shipping costs" I can see now why they are so high!

@John S "I do have to agree with you Jonathan, you do get what you pay for. It's all about fitness for purpose. It's like trying to buy a BMW on fiat money.

I resemble that remark. :confused:

I have just bought two Fiat trucks. Bummer.. Do BMW's make 3 tonners ? "

Lol:naughty: Hey there's nowt wrong with Fiat,- at least all the exposed screw heads inside helpfully reveal how to take the panels off!! They may well be different now But I'm just going off the experience cars I've owned 10 years ago ;-)

Sheesh next you'll have me putting my foot in it saying that all audi owners are twats and those day running lights are 'a bit gay' and annoy the hell out of me ;-) ON a side not to that statement.. I also just got rid of my old Audi 80 2.6 cabriolet and I miss her....

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Originally Posted by Tenson

That's not really the point is it? There is always something better.Unless going DIY I don't think the 6040 will be easily beaten. It's not that badly made anyway, it uses 16mm solid alu plate and supported Y axis rails. The feed-rates will be quite slow but you have to compromise something when you have a limited budget.

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Yes it's absolutly the point.!! . . . You don't have the experience to say other wise. . . Jonathan does and he's absolutely correct.!!

NOW.!!. . . I just happen to have in my possetion a 3020 machine and I can tell you 110% it's a toy compared to a better built DIY machine.

The electronics are cheap nasty things just waiting to die.
The spindle is complete junk and barbige, It's basicly a cheap 24V DC motor with a cut down ER11 or something like that collet chuck with hole machined in the end and held on motor shaft with a grub screw, my knob's got less runout.!!

Acme thread is cheap and nasty with crappy plastic nuts and will wear out quickly with anykind of moderately tuff dirty work.

The frame, bed etc, on this machine is ok and suprisingly tight but thats mainly down to it's tiny size and any larger/longer or wider and the unsupported rails will flex under cutting.

Really the only acceptable part of this machine is the main frame the rest is a lottery to when it's going to die and when they do die any one of them is a expensive item to replace.!!
The driver is all-in-one so if any axis goes they all go so that's 3 x drives at £45 each plus BOB at £15-20 or buy another cheap ebay TB chip based pile of junk.!!
Spindle anywhere from £40-150 depending on what you choose.
Acme Screw nut probably not available so special made job or replace the whole screw/nut combo again hassle and not cheap £40-100

So my real point being they may look cheap but they won't workout cheap in the end.!!! . . . Save your money, save up and build the real thing to your own spec.!
It won't cost much more and with £1500 you'll have a machine that will last for years and make these chinese pieces of shite look like the dinky toys they really are.!!

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Originally Posted by itsmillertime

At the moment I don't really have the time for building my own from scratch... I want to actually get stuck in and not spend ages trying to collect the parts etc..

I'm looking at making items from wood/mdf and occasionally light aluminium jobs.

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Jazz, in the context of not going DIY and the limited budget of £1200 MAX. What is a better option than the 6040?

Jazz,
You seen a 6040 in the flesh ?

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Originally Posted by John S

Jazz,
You seen a 6040 in the flesh ?

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No not yet John. But if this small thing I've got here is a guide then I'm not hopefull.!! . . . It's not so much the base machine John but the rest of it that's rubbish and even the base machine hisn't anything to write home about .:confused:

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Originally Posted by Tenson

Jazz, in the context of not going DIY and the limited budget of £1200 MAX. What is a better option than the 6040?

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Been said before but there hisn't anything you can buy off the shelf ready made for £1200 but that still doesn't mean it's something I'd encourage folks to do.!!
I'd say save your money add some to it and buy a proper machine that will last. . . . NO ACTUALLY. . . . I'd say build your own because for £1200 or not a lot more then it's very possible build your own custom machine with far far better components.!!
The last time this was brought up (By John S) I did actually do a rough costing exercise and it's possible build a similiar size machine as the 6040 for around the same money but with far better components.

I'm interested in hearing about a 6040 as to be honest even though I'm perfectly capable of building one I just don't have the time.
I have 3 personal mill conversions on the go at the moment.
One from 3 years ago ?

The short comings of the 3040's are obvious from looking at the machines, unsupported rails, so so electronics and now we have hands on reports the spindles are next to useless but the 6040's in high spec mode from various sellers have the water cooled spindles.
Jazz did a costing exercise and he reckons that it's possible to build a 6040 size machine but better for the same money ? however he didn't make it clear if that was working for ones self, count labour and it's probably not and the way work is at the moment I just don't have the time.

Got to say, that the 6040 looks a whole lot better machine than the 3040....still junk drivers, but they can be replaced for £85 for 3 x 542 variants....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEMA23-Ste...item20bc43d75b

Having built my first one, I can say it was fun, educational...but ultimately totally crap. It probably needs someone to have made at least 4 or 5 machines before they're on top of it all ...I haven't the time nor the inclination to start another build. I lost my job last year & when that happens urgency kicks in...and frankly I'd rather some bloke that's partial to a bowl of boil rice build me a frame, rather than taking time out from getting a new source of revenue out to put one together myself badly!

there's a lot to be said for economies of scale...they've the jigs tools machines to rustle one up in short order (& to a fairly tight spec - certainly mechanically)...& then flog it at a reasonable price ...I haven't the tools, jigs (and as I've learned the skills neither!) but make no mistrake, my time has value...it's just not making CNC machines!

I still find it hard to believe that no enterprising soul is plugging the gap in the market...a UK CNC'er is faced with chinese import or building their own...each is fraught with being a potential time sump - someone neds to step up to the mantle and knock out a decent' spec'ed machine where we don't have to sell a kidney.

How much do you value a kidney ?
I wonder how much Fray Bentos could make a 6040 for ?

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Originally Posted by HankMcSpank

I still find it hard to believe that no enterprising soul is plugging the gap in the market...a UK CNC'er is faced with chinese import or building their own...each is fraught with being a potential time sump - someone neds to step up to the mantle and knock out a decent' spec'ed machine where we don't have to sell a kidney.

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Yes and you know why that is don't you.??. . . . . . GREED TOTAL AND UTTER GREED. If they can't make minimum 200% profit they don't want to know.! So corners get cutt and cheap nasty components and build practise's are used to maximise profits.!! . . . . . You only have to peruse about the forums to see "STRIKE"-INGLY clear cases of this.!!!!. .:wink:

John S: Yes it was to DIY the machine but so much more for money and I seem to remember was with a 1.5kw WC /vfd setup.

@itsmillertime: I too was looking at the route of buying a machine for a +-£1000 and quickly realized that they really are not worth the Money especially if you want to use them to make some money. For a £1000 - £1500 you could build a really good machine. As JAZZCNC already mentioned, In the long run the cheap machines will cost you more money and will eat into the little profits that you already made. The benifits of the better DIY machine far out weigh the convenience of a Chinese machine especially if you are looking to make money with it.
My advice if you want to use the machine as a money maker, spend some time on the design or copy one, JAZZCNC has a great design! :whistling::naughty::beer:

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Originally Posted by JunkieHobbo

@itsmillertime: I too was looking at the route of buying a machine for a +-£1000 and quickly realized that they really are not worth the Money especially if you want to use them to make some money. For a £1000 - £1500 you could build a really good machine.

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There's a degree of irony in that - for a start everyones time has value (even if you're unemployed, researching all this CNC melarkey takes time...and that time could be spent trying to generate revenue!). For a CNC novice, how long to collect all the info, order the parts from here there & everywhere & then assemble - yonks.

In all of that yonks, he could be using the pre-made machine to make money!

Don't get me wrong...some enjoy the chase (been there done that ...the jury is still out), for those where this a hobby, then the time is money argument is negated somewhat, but when you speak of making money, then I would strongly urge paying someone to make you one (like Jazz, Jonathan etc) or buying something like the 6040Z to get you up and running quickly. (it's not a *bad* spec - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CNC-60...-/170683340109)

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Originally Posted by HankMcSpank

There's a degree of irony in that - for a start everyones time has value (even if you're unemployed, researching all this CNC melarkey takes time...and that time could be spent trying to generate revenue!). For a CNC novice, how long to collect all the info, order the parts from here there & everywhere & then assemble - yonks.

In all of that yonks, he could be using the pre-made machine to make money!

Don't get me wrong...some enjoy the chase (been there done that ...the jury is still out), for those where this a hobby, then the time is money argument is negated somewhat, but when you speak of making money, then I would strongly urge paying someone to make you one (like Jazz, Jonathan etc) or buying something like the 6040Z to get you up and running quickly. (it's not a *bad* spec - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CNC-60...-/170683340109)

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I agree 100% with your view, my view is more on the Hobbiyist side where you make some side cash in your spare time and time spent in the "chase" is not really calculated as money. Also if it was for making money a better machine would be able to give better results and potentially be even faster and cheaper in the long run and also give better return over time. Then again I am a newbie still and learning alot.

I am also a firm believer that you get what you pay for.

Perhaps slightly off-topic but I was wondering if half the problem with unsupported rails comes not from the rail itself, but from the commonly used clamping method to hold it?

I can imagine those rather immaterial aluminium screw clamps allow a fair bit of movement and flex under use. On the other hand, if the rails precisely slot into a much more solid piece of metal and are directly threaded and screwed up tight, I bet the movement is reduced a lot. This is how the CNC3040 and 6040 do it.

I'm guessing most who have used unsupported rail in DIY machines have gone the clamping route, because the cost of end-machining the rail to have a thread and perfect flat end makes it easier to buy supported rails.

Supported rail will be better, of course, but I'm just wondering where the main area of weakness might be.

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Originally Posted by Tenson

Perhaps slightly off-topic but I was wondering if half the problem with unsupported rails comes not from the rail itself, but from the commonly used clamping method to hold it?

I can imagine those rather immaterial aluminium screw clamps allow a fair bit of movement and flex under use. On the other hand, if the rails precisely slot into a much more solid piece of metal and are directly threaded and screwed up tight, I bet the movement is reduced a lot. This is how the CNC3040 and 6040 do it.

I'm guessing most who have used unsupported rail in DIY machines have gone the clamping route, because the cost of end-machining the rail to have a thread and perfect flat end makes it easier to buy supported rails.

Supported rail will be better, of course, but I'm just wondering where the main area of weakness might be.

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The main weakness comes from the fact the beam is not supported along its entire length.

Think about a springy length of piano wire sitting on a support at each end:
Imagine pushing down with your finger in the middle of the wire.
Now clamp each end of the wire firmly to each end support and assume the supports cannot move. Imagine once again pushing down with your finger in the middle of the wire.
Finally put a third support in middle of the wire and imagine pushing down directly over the middle support...

You may like http://www.clag.org.uk/beam.html , see 'Centre load on beam with two simple supports' and 'Centre load on beam with 2 fixed supports'

I'm not convinced that is the main weakness. Hardened solid steel is very stiff! I remember reading a post in which a chap calculated the deflection under load and it was tiny, nothing like the amount of cutting inaccuracy others have reported in practice. Hence I wonder if the rails modulus is in fact the primary cause of problems.

<shrug>
From the equations you can see that the difference in deflection between a beam simply resting on end supports and one rigidly supported at both ends is about a factor of 4 (192 / 48 taking simple cases). So the difference in deflection between fully rigid and 'kind of rigid but with poor bolts or wobbly walls" must be less than that factor of 4.

Edit
δ = FL³/192EI vs δ = FL³/48EI for those who don't like links.


Anyway, I dug this great resource out of my bookmarks, http://web.mit.edu/2.75/resources/FUNdaMENTALS.html . It is heavy on the maths but has lots of pictures so well worth a quick once over. The videos don't appear to work any more which is a shame, or maybe I accessed them by other means. If I remember correctly, one of the guys main tenets is "stop thinking of everything as rigid and firm, starting thinking elastic and floppy".

Just to jump in and have my twopenith worth, Building has to be the way to go. I started out with an £800 project and have to now find £1800 for a solid 1200 x 600 cnc. But when it is finished it will be able to cut ally and all the wood I want. I also know how to expand it, repair it, and why it works. I stood on the gantry and pushed along. Yes it even took my weight. This machine will last and as it would be nice to cover some of the cost, make me money.

As I am self employed my build time is scarce and so the build may take longer; but if i had the time this could be built in a month especially with the help you will find here. I use a cheap drill press, an under the bench router table and hand tools. probably a lot of shims but it can be done.

I know that time is money but is the time + £1200 spent on producing a machine worth say £3 - £4000 better value than spending £500 - £1200 on something that is guaranteed to break down. I can only suggest that you listen to the wise words of those that know.

Which ever direction you decide to take I really hope that you have success.

Bruce

Where is all this talk about breaking down coming from? I don't think anyone here actually owns a CNC6040. What parts are going to break down? The motors or drivers maybe, but then you can replace with better.

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Originally Posted by HankMcSpank

There's a degree of irony in that - for a start everyones time has value (even if you're unemployed, researching all this CNC melarkey takes time...and that time could be spent trying to generate revenue!). For a CNC novice, how long to collect all the info, order the parts from here there & everywhere & then assemble - yonks.

In all of that yonks, he could be using the pre-made machine to make money!

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Sorry hank got to disagree and here's why.!! . . . It's not like it was a few years ago where information was sparse and components unknown so too risky to chance, it doesn't get much easier than it is these days of all-in-one packages and G540 plug n play type arrangements.
All the information needed to build a perfectly good CNC machine is here on this forum and can be glean'd within a few nights searching. Also there's enough folks like me or Jonathan etc who could point someone in a rush to the right way to do it and where to buy the components and what's needed.

Me personally I'm more than prepared to help someone either via email, PM or my preferred ancient method "The telephone" with how to go about it, I often do this with people.
Obviously if they are in a rush then they will have to accept my interpritation's and ideas to what makes a good machine, but equaly I'm more than happy to discuss/advise on there interpritation and help put together a plan of attack.!! I could tell them all that's needed to build and where to get it and the pits falls to watch out for while building all within a, phone call.!! (All be it longone or maybe 2 short.!!)

So basicly some one new and in a rush with the time to build could be armed with the right info and pointing in the right direction within a day or two and within a just over week have all the components in hand ready to go and if equiped with the correct tools and skills using off the shelf materials have a within the month a working decent quality machine.!

To me the argument about prebuilt and cutting quickly so therefore earning quicker would hold up well with any decent quality machine but these are far from it and they wouldn't IMO stand business type production runs where they need to be running constant thru the day to earn there keep because they would die very quickly.

In this enviroment the down time alone would cost more more than the extra to buy a decent machine or justify any extra time it takes to build your own. Not to mention the damage it would do to the business Rep letting customers down.?? . . . . Imo buying one of these 6040 machines to run a business from would be commercial suicide and domed to failure before getting off the ground. .:thumbdown:

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Originally Posted by Tenson

Where is all this talk about breaking down coming from? I don't think anyone here actually owns a CNC6040. What parts are going to break down? The motors or drivers maybe, but then you can replace with better.

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You don't get it do you.!!. . . . Thats the point with the extra few hundred pounds you WILL have to spend on top of what you have already spent you can build a much better machine and avoid all the heart ache.:whistling:

Also it's not all about parts used, strutual integrity comes into it and while it's not exactly flimsy it's far from good and will show it's true weakness's in short order when it comes down to the nitty gritty of getting good quality work from it in a timely fashion. . . . . .In a 8hrs a day 6 days a week enviroment I'd give it 2 weeks MAX before it was sloppier than an Pro's flu.!!:naughty: . . . . By the end of the month it would be the most expensive door stop you had ever bought. .:rofl:

A lot of the DIY machines on here are built with Chinese ballscews, ballnut and linear bearings. Do you have evidence the ones in the 6040 are inferior? The rest of the structure is metal and screws, probably machined on very good industrial kit.

I'm not saying the 6040 is a perfect machine but I think you are going way over the top with your comments in the context of a small run machine for wood parts or light aluminium. Yes DIY will give better results, but only if you are willing and able.

Anyway enough of Hi-jacking threads.!! . . . . Me personally I'm saying no more on it and lets concentrate on Mr Millers ponderings.????

Andy. . . . Here's an option for you.?. . . If you have the time to wait then get intouch and I will be more than happy to help you build a machine that will knock one of these 6040 machines into the middle of next week for around the same money.