Musings on building a workshop and a new machine...

So, discussions with SWMBO have got to the point where she wants a consulting room to do private practice (she's a psychotherapist/counsellor) and that means converting the front section of the garage so she can have an external entrance and the back section would, if we go ahead, become a utility room with an entrance from the house.

I can't extend the garage back any more cos of the boiler house and also it would raise issues with neighbours on that side as it would cut out their light into their kitchen. So option has been mooted to build a new brick n block workshop at the back of the garden. This is ideal, it would be screened from the house by an existing laurel hedge and could be around 6.5 x 3.5m internal. With some careful planning I can get everything I need in there... including my 3 bikes. A rough floor plan is:

Attachment 6518

So, any thoughts on this layout, the construction of the workshop, etc.? Very early days yet... budget exists but isnt infinite, I reckon it can be done for about 3.5-4k if I'm clever with purchasing...

Secondly, that raises the issue of having to get rid of the old 'British' lathes and stick with my Warco as there won't be room for all of them, plus I can't see me ever getting round to finishing the refurb on any of them in the near future. Anyway there won't be room for anything much bigger.

And then that leads to the mill question... do I keep the Warco MD30 and CNC it as was planned but look at options to convert from a round column to a square column, effectively building something in the vertical using some heavy box section (concrete fill?) and big supported rails (has this been done before?). If I went that route I'd need to get the table dovetails remachined as they are not perpendicular at the mo by about 0.6mm in X across the Y travel. But then again the mill might need to go into storage while the garage is cleared so that might be a time to ship it somewhere and get the work done (and get it converted to ballscrews at the same time). Alternatively I sell it and by something else thats inherently more CNC-able or is already done... an X3 or similar...

Further thoughts appreciated...

Where's the CNC Router :thumbdown:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

building something in the vertical using some heavy box section (concrete fill?) and big supported rails (has this been done before?).

---

Have you seen the builds on CNC zone using epoxy granite? Pretty inspirational stuff...by supported rails I hope you're referring to profile rails as I doubt you could get worthwhile rigidity with supported round rails.

Looks very cosy :beer:

My best design features in my den were a 4 meter length of 40mm x 30" beech worktop with ten double mains sockets across the back edge. Down the other wall another 4 meters of 24" Melamine face kitchen worktop. Underneath the worktops, 47 sliding plastic trays from Radio Spares. Sort of removable drawers in two depths.

Yes Robin, can never have enough workbench and there will be lots of storgae under the ones in the drawing.

OK main changes to be incorporated... bike store on ceiling to give more wall/floor space, Dutch dryer style but cleverer... maybe with powered lift :) That frees up space to make room for a small CNC router maybe, or a 3D printer, and/or more workbench...

Bigger windows to increase light and make it easier to get stuff in if need be.

But can't decide what to do about the mill... fix/re-engineer current one or buy a new one (the Amadeal AM30LV @ £1300 is a similar size but more suitable for CNCing... or the slightly smaller XJ25 @ £850)? Reckon I could get £250+ for the current mill...

Not an original idea but I found a complete fitted kitchen on eBay, fitted out the workshops with some of the under counter units, added 2 cheap worktops from a sale at BQ or similar and sold the remaining kitchen parts for more than I spent buying the kitchen units, the worktops and hiring a luton van to go get it! Larger fitted kitchens work better! :-)

Bl**dy planning permission... general permitted development says "can't be >2.5m high if < 2m from boundary. Can be 2.5m at eaves and 4m at centre if >=2m from boundary". I need the height for my bike store so means I have to apply for PP :( grumble....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

Bl**dy planning permission... general permitted development says "can't be >2.5m high if < 2m from boundary...

---

Make it taller than the inside on the outside?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Make it taller than the inside on the outside?

---

Very helpful J... its not the TARDIS lol... tho sometimes it looks that way...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

Very helpful J... its not the TARDIS lol...

---

Ahh but you don't need timelord technology - just a shovel!

Check with the Local Authority as a lot of the regs have changed and dont need to go to the committee, all done under delegated authority.
Still costs yer though!

peter

I looked on the government planning portal under the new 'deregulated' permissions. Its possible that the local council are prepared to relax these as the location in question is already screened by matured hedges/trees on 3 sides so will only be visible from my garden anyway... I'll have to ask informally and see how far I can get... if not, its only £58 to get the drawings reviewed... so thats my next task, do some scale drawings... Sketchup should do the job nicely. Been playing with Draftsight, but either its not intuitive or I've missed the point somewhere....

I'm also wondering about how much of this I can do myself... laying bricks/block can't be too hard? Not sure I fancy digging out 3tonnes odd of soil/clay/crap for the base. Clay subsoil so need to go down 1m under the walls and the floor is 20cm of packed MOT type 1 hardcore and 30cm of concrete then a membrane then screed on top of that - or somehting of that nature, still reading up on the actual requirements...


@Jonathan - if I go below ground level inside I'm going to have a step down. Building regs don't seem to like this as far as I can see, also it could be a pain to lift things in and out, I wanted flat access for a number of reasons...

edit: It seems that the old requirement of being at least 1m from the boundary no longer aplies if the construction is largely or wholly of non-combustible materials and bricks are that last time I looked, so i can make the floor area bigger by up to maybe a metre in each direction. The downside being it'll cost more, 30% bigger base area adds nearly £300 more concrete let alone the digging out costs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

I'm also wondering about how much of this I can do myself... laying bricks/block can't be too hard? Not sure I fancy digging out 3tonnes odd of soil/clay/crap for the base. Clay subsoil so need to go down 1m under the walls and the floor is 20cm of packed MOT type 1 hardcore and 30cm of concrete then a membrane then screed on top of that - or somehting of that nature, still reading up on the actual requirements...

---

That sounds a bit excessive to me.
All our sheds with concrete floors are on 10-12" type 1, then 6inch of reinforced concrete, with the damproof membrane below the concrete and brought out and up over enough layers of bricks to ensure it's above ground level. And those floors have had a fair bit of abuse (3 tonne forklift running over them, jacking up various tractors)
Only place near us thats got a 12" float foundation is the neighbours newbuild, as the test bore revealed mine workings below. All the original houses are on strip founds and none of them have fallen down yet! And all his damproofing went below the concrete.


One thing I would say, plan for insulation in the walls, but make sure you build the roof with insulation (i.e. suitably vented with insulation below). The one regret I've got is not doing the workshop roof properly for insulation. I do plan on insulating it, however it's not feasible to vent it properly, so it will probably eventually rot the main beams :-/

Just been reading Building Regs Part A Section 2E..

Because of neighbouring trees the strip foundations need to be a min of 0.75m deep and 0.5m wide. I might be a little over the top on the concrete and not enough on the hardcore, but the foundations will be 2 brick courses below final floor level, thats 150mm or so, so there'll be at least 150-200mm of concrete. Already planned for the insulating fill between the walls, with special sound proofing stuff so I can work in the evenings. Roof will be pitched with internal dry-wall soundproof insulation and vapour barrier. There wont be a ceiling as such because i want to use the roof space.

I need to check with Planning I can have the pitched roof nearer to the boundary than normal; I cant see why not, its already well screened as i said. If I cant get that then it puts the rest of the works in doubt, or i'll have to rethink.

The council dont like you building below the surface because of water ingress I think. If you did that you might need to tank the walls inside below the ground level. I built mine up two courses of concrete block and then timber framed it. Saved quite a bit of money because I did it all myself. I didnt fancy trying brickwork that high but a couple of courses was easy enough with my Brickies Mate laying tool. Insulated all the walls and roof with 100mm thick polystyrene and then clad the outside with plastic cladding. Looks nice even though I do say so myself. I also made the roof trusses from 100mm x 50mm to take extra weight and I use the space for storage. I also modified the roof structure to allow a bigger access to get larger and longer stuff up there.
I will try to post some photos later.

Ian

Done some rethinking and some replanning and put some tent pegs and string in the garden where this is likely to go (not so much a garden as a unkempt undergrowth behind the trees). Reckon I can get 6.5 x 4m external which is 6 x 3.5 internal and I can keep it to 2.5m high by putting the door in the end and better utilising the space. So here is plan B in Sketchup this time...

Give me a continuous run of 6m of workbench with the lathe and grinder at the end, lots more windows and therefore light and room to put the bike trainer up when I can't get out and ride... and i could make it 0.5m narrower if need be (but I dont want to). Will make it a single pitch, 2.5m at the front sloping to 2.25m at the back (top of pic)

Attachment 6564

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Make it taller than the inside on the outside?

---

Ye good idea then when it piss's down you have an indoor swimming pool as well. . . . Lol

I wouldnt recommend a single pitch roof. I had this on my last workshop and I am glad I didnt do the same on the new one. Having the extra storage space is a major bonus on its own. But if you do go down that route go for some decent roof covering like plastic coated metal sheeting. Got that on mine and its great.
Photo of the enlarged access I left myself to get stuff into the roof storage area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Web Goblin

I wouldnt recommend a single pitch roof. I had this on my last workshop and I am glad I didnt do the same on the new one. Having the extra storage space is a major bonus on its own. But if you do go down that route go for some decent roof covering like plastic coated metal sheeting. Got that on mine and its great.
Photo of the enlarged access I left myself to get stuff into the roof storage area.

---

Would prefer double pitch, but if its with 2m of the boundary and I dont want the hassle of applying for planning permission it has to be no more than 2.5m at the eaves, so will slope it to the back to allow water run off into a gutter and thence to a water butt with a overspill and soakaway. I've had all sorts of issues with a flat roof on a garage in the past so dont want a repeat of that. The only issue with plastic coated metal roofing is the noise it makes when it rains hard :) ... also not too sure of the sound insulating properties. I guess once its lined with 6cm of foam it'll be OK?

If you are going to build to 2.5mts at one side anyway would you not be as well having a pitch roof? It might not be as much of a slope as you wanted but it would Still be there. The metal roof is not really that noisy and the roof sheets are screwed down on top of the outside sheet of timber anyway.
Photo below (left)shows my workshop roof. The photo on the right shows my nearly complete bike shed with the same type of roof. The roof has the outer sheet of osb, 100mm of poly insulation, then another sheet of osb inside so its well insulated for heat and sound.




Attachment 6569Attachment 6570

Forgot to add that the air gap between the roof timber sheet and the metal sheet gives it a good way to breath to keep the damp away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Web Goblin

If you are going to build to 2.5mts at one side anyway would you not be as well having a pitch roof? It might not be as much of a slope as you wanted but it would Still be there. The metal roof is not really that noisy and the roof sheets are screwed down on top of the outside sheet of timber anyway.
Photo below (left)shows my workshop roof. The photo on the right shows my nearly complete bike shed with the same type of roof. The roof has the outer sheet of osb, 100mm of poly insulation, then another sheet of osb inside so its well insulated for heat and sound.

---

Yes it will be single pitched but I wanted a double pitched roof with a useful void in it, but the expemption won't let me have that and I dont want to go to the hassle of getting permission.
So the 100mm poly insulation is between the roof joists and the OSB screwed top and bottom of the joists? Did you use T&G or the plain stuff? What did you treat the OSB with before attaching the metal covering?

I was looking at using Bitumen-coated corrugated sheet like this:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz...heet_large.jpg

Yes 100mm insulation between the joists with osb top and bottom. I used plain osb screwed down. The grade of the osb is structural I think. It was the one with the better preservative treatment but even so I did give it a couple of coats of creosote or what passes for creosote these days. Seeing as the roof is covered by another waterproof layer you should only need protection from dampness.
My last workshop roof had bitumen coated fiber sheets on it and I really didnt like them. If it is the fiber ones they go soft in really hot weather and hard in really cold weather and after a few years they get very brittle and if you walk on them they break. You need to be really careful when screwing or nailing them down to get the right tension on the fixing so that its not too loose or too tight that it starts to crush the profle and makes it prone to leaks. Also used to have a large tree behind the workshop and in high winds some of the broken off branches punctured the bitumen sheets. You dont get these problems with the metal sheets. Metal stuff can also be repainted after a while to tidy it up again.

Tree's are my problem too... I have a mature chesnut tree approx 3m away on one side and a large laural tree/bush at the back and I'm going to have to cut through a few major roots that lie on the surface. Not sure what impact that will have a) on the tree(s) and b) on the ground swell...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

Tree's are my problem too... I have a mature chesnut tree approx 3m away on one side and a large laural tree/bush at the back and I'm going to have to cut through a few major roots that lie on the surface. Not sure what impact that will have a) on the tree(s) and b) on the ground swell...

---

Hmm, we had a youngish (5-10 years) plum tree in the way of where we put the workshop 20x10' shed. The plan was to leave it there, hence why we got 20x10' not 20x12', however surpisingly after cutting lots of bits off my Dad managed to move it so we could have had the extra 2' on the width after all! There's also a mature ash tree pretty close to the end of the workshop, but it turned out there weren't too many roots in the way.

My Dad put insulated plasterboard (like this one), which was just plasterboard with 25mm of foam on the back, covering every wall and the ceiling which certainly made a big difference to the temperature and damp.

Not sure what exactly the roof sheet is, but it's black and corrugated:

Attachment 6571Attachment 6572

This is the proposed location, marked out with string. As you can see there's a big tree not too far away and if you look carefully you can see the roots (the string bends over the top of one!)

Attachment 6573Attachment 6574

The roots might cause you a problem but you wont find out till you start digging out the foundation and see how they are growing. Another problem is that the tree roots will continue to grow so could be ok just now but could damage the concrete in the future thats why I removed the tree next to mine, I just knew that it would cause problems so it had to go. I think you might need some expert advice on this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Web Goblin

The roots might cause you a problem but you wont find out till you start digging out the foundation and see how they are growing. Another problem is that the tree roots will continue to grow so could be ok just now but could damage the concrete in the future thats why I removed the tree next to mine, I just knew that it would cause problems so it had to go. I think you might need some expert advice on this one.

---

Yes, trying to find someone...

The current working BOM reckons this 'shed' is near £8k worth of materials :eek: and they say 'materials is only 20% of the job'... err so either I'm very wrong somewhere (been using prices off ebay as a starter) or this 'shed' is going to cost £40k!!!

I know mate, building prices are scary. I completed mine for around £2.5K, size around 7.5 x 3.5 mt. But I did all the work myself with some help from a builder friend of mine who. The only materials I had to buy new was the timber framing and the osb sheets, concrete blocks and the sand. The plastic cladding came from ebay, major bargain it was, garage door company selling off a job lot. The roofing sheets were leftovers from a job at work that were going in the skip and I happened to be in the right place at the time to re-direct them into my trailer. Timber frame idea is easy to build yourself. Drew the whole thing in autocad and split it into sections to build. Once the floor level was complete I transferred the cad drawing for the wall from paper to full scale on the floor and cut and made all the sections there, same for the roof trusses.

The cladding I used was similar to this: Royal Crest Sterling Vinyl Decorative Cladding / Siding 200mm wide x 3.81m Long | eBay

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

I've had all sorts of issues with a flat roof on a garage in the past so don't want a repeat of that. The only issue with plastic coated metal roofing is the noise it makes when it rains hard :

---

Have you had a look at GRP roofing. I did a roof with a friend of mine as an extension behind his shop. Its uses fibre glass and resin, its easy to put down and has a 30 year life. We didn't put insulation in between the joists, rather OSB3 board over the joists, then 120mm insulation, topped with another layer of OSB3 board, all screwed down with 170mm screws. Planning actually specified which type and size of insulation we needed to use. We had a flat roof with just a rain slope, but it could be installed on a pitch.

Attachment 6577Attachment 6578

Regarding building the super structure, did you ever watch a program called 'Tommy's ultimate workshop' on Discovery Network. He builds a timber structure on concrete foundations. Its a good example of how you could do most things yourself. Each side of the shed is built on the floor then stood up into place. I did this on a small garden shed I made for my brother. Took me a weekend to complete start to finish. Its not a workshop shed, just a stick all your rubbish in shed. I even fixed the cladding to the neighbouring side before I stood it up into place. Didn't want to go to his side to fix the cladding.

Attachment 6579

You have a Selco's builder merchant near you in Cricklewood, go and just have a browse on the materials you will be needing. They have all the equipment for GRp roofing and even have a demonstration video of how to apply it. Its also a talking point when your mates come to see your handy work, lol. I've found they are also the cheapest supplier of timber, and can ask for discount at the checkout.

Irving,
how are you getting on with your planning?
Is your warco MD30 the same as the Major milling machine? If so how are they?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Web Goblin

Irving,
how are you getting on with your planning?
Is your warco MD30 the same as the Major milling machine? If so how are they?

---

MD30 is roughly equivalent to the later Warco Minor (it was rebadged) which they no longer sell and is smaller than the Major, but not much. Table I think is the same size 680 x 180 or thereabouts but the column is 95mm rather than 105mm or something like that...

re workshop, I've now got costs for materials down to £6300 by virtue of overestimation of the cu meterage of the foundations... been looking at sectional concrete buildings as an alternative as the quote for that came in at under £4000 installed plus base but I am worried it might be a compromise too far... will need extensive mods to the roof to make it insulated (by default they are not nor do they have draught proofing!) and would need to insulate the walls too, plus you can't drill into the walls (else it invalidates the 10y guarantee) so not sure how I'd fix electrics (dont want the socket strips on the benches) plus got VFD for mill, Emergency Stop for whole workshop by door, etc. And I want my whiteboard for scribbling on, wall hanger for the bikes, etc etc.... waiting on a couple of firms to explain how they do that... in the brochure it shows offices made of the stuff with plastered walls but nothing on the walls :(

Walk in cold rooms may be an option for your build, you can pick up reasonable sized ones with failed or redundant coolers for next to nothing. One went on ebay last week that was 6m x 4m for £800.

Not the most secure buildings but watertight and well insulated. They normally come in sections of a standard size that lock together so you can probably extend as and when you have the panels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by i2i

Not the most secure buildings but watertight and well insulated.

---

That makes it ideal to have a de-humidifier to stop things rusting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irving2008

And I want my whiteboard for scribbling on

---

If only I had a free space on the wall for my whiteboard!

Interesting idea, the cold store.... but no way SWMBO will allow something looking that bad in the garden... I'd earlier suggested a 1/2 container (though that would have needed a crane to lift it in, so the panel idea works better) and I'd have to work out a way to fit windows and a decent door. As you say, not exactly secure either.

Easy to put windows in, just cut hole with a jigsaw, then clad it all over in t&g.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by i2i

Easy to put windows in, just cut hole with a jigsaw, then clad it all over in t&g.

---

Its a thought... how would you fix the T&G? and that would make it more secure as well. Seems these panels can be bought for as little as £10/sq mtr and for a 6m x 4m x 2.5m high I only need 53 sq mtr or so, thats under £550... so worth thinking about...

Would need to put a roof on it as these things are not generally intended to be standing outside unprotected from what I've researched. But I reckon thats just some 4 x 2 trusses and some OSB and then some metal cladding so relatively cheap. In fact the form on eBay that sell the panels also seel the roofing 4m x 1m sheets £16, so the claddng for the roof is 7 or 8 sheets depending on overlap or under £128


Anyone any idea how these fix together? And would they be strong enough to hang things from the walls (I reckon it'll be OK to fix trunking etc to). I can't find much about their construction online.

the fridges have camlocks that pull each panel together, but i doubt the panels you're talking about have this. I had one of these fridges outside for a year with no problems.

No they dont, they're just 2mm ali skins over 100mm insulation, held together with self-tapping screws... it would need some sort of timber frame. I've not seen the cam-lock ones advertised

However I've just been to look at a sectional concrete workshop and I think it could be made to serve and it is cheaper... not massively so, been quoted £4848 for a 6m x 4m but it would need some additional work doing to line it. The base is definitely cheaper, been quoted £700 for a 6m x 4m 6" thick as against nearly £2,000 for 'proper' foundations.

Lookng at the way its constructed its just cast panels and although the basic full height panels are stock, they cast the rest specific to the job for openings, etc. Obviously they have moulds with movable sides. The roof is identical to what would be used for a block/brick construction except what they offer as standard is very crude and would need to be augmented.

Which got me thinking... if you've pouring concrete, how hard would it be to cast your own panels??? a wooden base, some shuttering, a 'lid' to form the indent and some strategically placed rods to create the bolt holes to pull the panels together... If you were doing it specifically, you could cast in bosses for wall mountings including fixing studs and all sorts of useful stuff... how hard can it be?

Anybody any experience with casting concrete?