Newbie observation on the CNC market

Getting less of a newbie, now have less cash and serial #`s that combined are worth more than the computer they are running on ;-)

Help is there but sometimes its is as if its written in a different language, full of acronyms and numbers. Entry to ask questions seems sometimes set at knowing what some of the acronyms mean...

CNC by it`s nature attracts people who didn`t intially want to learn a lot about bearing blocks and supported rails, they wanted something, a 3d manufacturing process, to turn a CAD model into a physical object. Learn fast that need to know more than anticipated to get very far.

Because they`re an expensive project, there`s money to be made by the `we`ll make it easy for you` types, some of them probably learned their skills in somewhere like used car sales, it can be a world of bait and switch, see one product, get delivered something quite a lot different....

Ryan Air style drip pricing, everything is extra over, that change of spindle is also a change of mount, connectors they`re extra see,`lets people specify the ones they need` etc.

Combination of the 2, low ad price followed by the hard upsell on everything.

Some of them are legitimate sales techniques but some depends on how well infomed the customer is and some is just downright deceit...

Guess point is , it`s unfair to critcise victims of operations that by decline or design appear to have turned into the machine tools world equivalent of clip joints.

Like used car salesman, conservatory sales droids and boiler room share rampers they can appear very convincing.

Plug and play machines are needed, but we need more engineers making them. You need CNC to make CNC and you need to know what you are doing.

Average bod arrives on the CNC scene, realises it is much cheaper to build-your-own so he designs a bare 3 axis CNC gantry assuming the wiring, switches, drivers and software can come later, how hard can it be? He then posts it on a forum expecting Wow's and adulation but instead gets told where he's gone wrong. He then fights his corner, tries to justify it, builds it anyway and comes back when he finds Mach 3 can't fix his mistakes.

His big problem is there are a lot more like him and the old saying holds true, "You can't sell people what they need, you have to sell them what they want". The parts market is aimed at him and caters for all the mistakes he is about to make. Basically, the newbs control the market due to their buying power. It is very easy to buy what newbs want and tricky to buy what is actually needed.

A newb machine is always made from aluminium extrusion, has a million rpm motor built in to the spindle, 6" of vertical where 2" would do, enormous stepper motors on all 3 axes, 2 on the X, not a diagonal brace in sight, round rails, and very little end support on the screws which are usually a joke.

Very well said Robin and couldn't agree more.
Right or wrong I often try to intervene Via PM when ever I see someone new(Hate the word "noobie") to CNC looking like they are taking the wrong path. Unfortunately can't help all of them and some just don't want help.!

Can't tell you how many emails or PM's I get from people who don't EVER post but still are looking and wanting to building a machine. Often they will present me with a wish list of components or packages they have settled upon from weeks or month's of reading threads.
They are mostly asking me to check it over for them and verify it's ok.? Would say 90% of them get it wrong.:hopelessness: . . . Usual suspects Too low PSU, Too small drives, Too large drives, Too large motors, Wrong pitch, Wrong diameter, Unsupported rails, massive OTT profiled rail.! . . Then comes the frame starting with MDF, Too small extrusion, Too thin plate, Too little bracing, Too long Z axis, Too high gantry sides and almost exclusively Too much cutting expectations with Too little budget.!!

So my advice to all New to CNC is just start a thread with your intentions and expectations and given a little time and patience then all the answers to build a successful machine will come.!! . . . Keep Stum and Go it alone and you'll more than likely get something wrong just costing more time and money in the long run.?

If you plan to buy ready built then again post for opinions.! . .BUT . . like the Strike CNC thread shows don't t think for one minute just because WE say it looks OK it will be.? There are a lot of Conmen and fly by night rip-off merchants and unfortunately with CNC it's easy to blind the uninitiated with science and jargon and with a bit WOW factor cutting thrown in easy to get hooked.
If you do take this route and spending several £K then I suggest the best course of action is to speak with other users of the actual machine and better still if possible take a experienced CNC person with you to view. Buying ready built is a mine field and unfortunately with CNC price doesn't always reflect the quality.!!

DIY and you get exactly whats on the tin.? . . . . So long has you buy the right tins. . Lol

Good luck.

Perhaps the answer is a MYCNC router design which can be improved upon?

Definitely NOT

I have seen this route taken on many forums, there are some on Yahoo setup for designing the perfect lathe.

They have been running 5+ years and still no design.
There will never be a one size suits all.

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Originally Posted by John S

Definitely NOT

I have seen this route taken on many forums, there are some on Yahoo setup for designing the perfect lathe.

They have been running 5+ years and still no design.
There will never be a one size suits all.

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I can see it being an endless source of conflict between the "I know bestest" clan :)
it would keep the buggers busy though

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Originally Posted by John S

Definitely NOT

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Blimey, have I just had an epiphany? :joker:

I think a radical new design, not all based on standard parts, is exactly what is needed.

If you think the home build has achieved perfection then we disagree.

The beauty with the DIY route to me means Custom built, Custom to the users needs. Whether that be size, shape, speed, ability or what ever and so like John S says one design doesn't fit everybody. . . Never can, never will.
Marks also correct it would turn into one big brawl.!! Bans would be getting dished out left right and centre, probably starting with me first.. Lol

Some things are just the way they are and meant to be and it takes a certain amount of effort to gain the reward. If we can help guide new folks away from the rocks then that's all I think is needed.?

One design is never suitable, so make it a parametric design. The process could be simplified into a set of logical decisions and a CAD program programmed to draw the machine based on code to represent these decisions. That way you just enter the general requirements (size, cutting material, price etc) and the program finds the solution if one exists within those parameters. This is not trivial to set up, but there are a few CAD programs that support parameter driven modelling, so I'm intending to try it. Clearly this method will never encompass everyone's needs, but it would be adequate for a lot of beginners to get an initial design, so long as it is made clear that it is a concept and not a final design.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

That way you just enter the general requirements (size, cutting material, price etc) and the program finds the solution if one exists within those parameters.

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Ok at the risk of being called a bully I'll comment on this. The idea in concept is ok but who's components a will the Cad use.?
To me this idea would work ok for a manufacturer or group of manufactures has it would allow them to construct the machine from there components but the DIY user needs to be flexible and buy what fits there pocket.
To me it would need to be generic and this defeats the object of a Cad model.? Wouldn't it be better or easier to just have data base where they can enter there needs and it spits out recommended dimensions and component types sizes etc required to full-full there needs.?

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

To me it would need to be generic and this defeats the object of a Cad model.? Wouldn't it be better or easier to just have data base where they can enter there needs and it spits out recommended dimensions and component types sizes etc required to full-full there needs.?

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The idea is it would contain a database of components and prices that people contribute, so for instance if you want to make it from only components sourced in the UK that can be an option.
So to answer your question, anyone's components.

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Wouldn't it be better or easier to just have data base where they can enter there needs and it spits out recommended dimensions and component types sizes etc required to full-full there needs.?

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The system is an extension of what you describe, it would use the calculated list of components to draw the machine and include a bill of materials.

It won't happen, and if on the off chance it does ever appear then people will ignore it or the results as it doesn't support what they think.

Human Nature 101.

Sorry to be a wet blanket but seen this time and time again.......................

I am not sure that I follow the logic of having a forum that encourages people to be involved in designing, building and improving a cnc machine and then telling them what to do so that everyone can be exactly the same. That is not the route for innovation. There is plenty of information already on this site about calculating the motors required, psu's, etc. maybe there could be an archive of all the most usefull posts with thread titles to help to find the information.

I am near the end of my build and I know exactly how every bit on my machine is supposed to do its job. Taking 9 months may be a bit extreme but when its finally up and running I will as they say OWN IT!.

I am reminded of the horse designing committee who ended up with a camel. Remember this is MYcnc.com and not THEcnc.com

Bruce

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Originally Posted by motoxy

I am not sure that I follow the logic of having a forum that encourages people to be involved in designing, building and improving a cnc machine and then telling them what to do so that everyone can be exactly the same.

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Well said that man :beer:

I think things started to go to pot when folk started trying to cut aluminium with woodworking technology. You may get away with it on a good machine but not on a budget job. If you want to cut aluminium design for aluminium.

I'm currently building a plasma cutter and it's radical because I read between the lines on lots of plasma build threads over on CNC zone. They weld it all up, paint it, everyone says it looks fantastic, a pause, then they are back trying to add torch height control.

Did they really expect it to be flat and square after all that welding? Shame they used a stepper for the Z because THC is a lot easier with a DC motor.

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Originally Posted by Robin Hewitt

Perhaps the answer is a MYCNC router design which can be improved upon?

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Sort of but with a twist, i'm thinking more of "design guidelines" that allows the user to be creative but also build to a certain standard that will put them and their machines in a better postion from the start.

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Originally Posted by John S

I have seen this route taken on many forums, there are some on Yahoo setup for designing the perfect lathe. They have been running 5+ years and still no design. There will never be a one size suits all.

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Humm i know what your saying, what about open source though, with the right team behind somthing that can work. While others may not agree they would just need to suck it up and let the project move on, not ideal but there must be other areas where this is true and from it comes a product.

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

The beauty with the DIY route to me means Custom built, Custom to the users needs. Whether that be size, shape, speed, ability or what ever and so like John S says one design doesn't fit everybody. . . Never can, never will.
Marks also correct it would turn into one big brawl.!! Bans would be getting dished out left right and centre, probably starting with me first.. Lol

Some things are just the way they are and meant to be and it takes a certain amount of effort to gain the reward. If we can help guide new folks away from the rocks then that's all I think is needed.?

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This is true, though it would only turn into a "brawl" if people could'nt stay mature about things, thats not a dig at you Dean - it takes two to tango. Yep guided clear of the rocks is getting closer!

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Wouldn't it be better or easier to just have data base where they can enter there needs and it spits out recommended dimensions and component types sizes etc required to full-full there needs.?

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Would it be a problem to assume that at some point most of us seem to want to machine ali/metal and if that is to be true then anything suggested should always be aimed at machining metal, by that i mean if it can do a good/nice job on somthing hard then anything softer should be a breeze for the machine? I dont know, is there a prefered setup for working in wood?

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Originally Posted by motoxy

I am not sure that I follow the logic of having a forum that encourages people to be involved in designing, building and improving a cnc machine and then telling them what to do so that everyone can be exactly the same. That is not the route for innovation. There is plenty of information already on this site about calculating the motors required, psu's, etc. maybe there could be an archive of all the most usefull posts with thread titles to help to find the information.

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Aaahhh finally i get to share a little about what is to come.

When i first started this forum my objective was to put the UK on the map in the "cnc www arena", now that is true i have looked at how i can take this to the next level and harness what the forum is/has now become. As some of you know I freelance as web developer from home, so running/hosting a simple forum and leaving it at that was never going to be enough and there is so much more still left on the table to do.

What i have decided to do is build a network of sites aimed at machinists, who are online. Before i decided to do that the plan was to build a front end onto this site and make it a full blown website with the forum becoming a site feature rather than the main property. Here is a snippet of what the About Us page said:

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This site is dedicated to people who have a common interest in Computer Numerical Controlled (CNC for short) machining, our members range from Enthusiast’s to the professional. The aim for the site is to publish and house some of the best Articles, Tutorials, Reviews and more currently available to the exploring machinist.

Our editorial team is made up of people with different and varying levels of experience and enables us to select the best content we feel would be of the most benefit to our readers. We hope to help our readers learn new techniques and tricks with the aim being to maximize their creative potential and get the very best out of the tools available to them.

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The above is still true, however i've now put another twist on it as i would like to cover online machinists rather than just cnc machinists. The idea is still the same really with there just being a change in how i plan to engineer this into reality, it all sounds a little WOW i know but it will all become clear when those sites start to pop up and you get to see where i'm going with what will be the "network".

Now, for one of the sites there will be a section called "The Basics" (some of you have read this from me before) and this will be an on going set of informations in various forms that to summarise will be:

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Welcome to The Basics, are you a beginner just learning the ropes? Great! before you dive into some of our more advanced tutorials, the articles here have been selected just for you.

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And so this section will be looking to cover things that new comers really need to know and start with first, "Optimizing Your MACH3 Installation" or "How to setup motor tuning in LinuxCNC" they are just some examples but what we could do is introduce new comers to a DIY Building Series that looks somthing like this: This is a 25 part video series hoping to guide you through building a diy cnc machine and covers the most important things you need to know and learn to understand the basics of building your own cnc machine. Bla Bla Bla.

Obviously i havnt got all the ideas and dont know everything there is to know but thats where you guys can now make this your own and make it work for you, you'll be able to submit your own Articles on the things that concern you the most. So if it wasnt obvious i'm passionate about the education side of this and will be looking to produce websites that are educational for amateurs through to professionals with some sites bringing opportunities for you to also get paid if that is applicable to you.

While we now see a higher standard of diy machines coming out of the build log section thanks to people like Jazz and JB, i think we should also look to preserve some discovery, the trials and tribulations involved with what is more or less a hobby for most make up what the fun is. Obviously none of us want to see someone pull out the fantastic plastic on £400's worth of gear that isnt really suitable but giving them a better understanding from day one with the freedom to be creative and innovate is important i think.

I'll stop now, JB sent me a msg suggesting that motoxy had touched on somthing that was related to my "big idea", you've got a little info from me now on where im going and how i plan to support you all. If we can support each other that would be great.

:beer:

Lee.....FANTASTIC. :triumphant: Look forward to see how you roll it out. Any idea on time scales?

Bruce

I maybe a noob in CNC, but have 30 years in IT and from where I'm standing the CNC market for both reductive and additive manufacturing is in many ways analogous to where the computing market was in the early 80's. There are subtle differences (Moores Law isn't being followed per say and the internet wasn't really around then for knowledge dissemination), but alot of the behaviours, opinions and availability of knowledge and components/machines is much the same (especially in 3d printing), with the same mix of high end=mainframes, hobbyist/kit=early PC/Apple. What is missing currently is the Sinclair, Acorn, Vic etc from those times i.e. low cost of entry if not that capable, but at least enough to get into CNC and go onto to better things.

My personal take is that there is a home manufacturing wave starting/ocurring, much as there was with IT in the 80's and its all about riding that wave or sinking (lord knows there was much of both and still is in IT).

Exciting times I say and mistakes are acceptable provided you don't make them twice and not everyone wants the moon immediately, when low earth orbit is good enough to learn from ;-)

My 2 Cents/Pennies.

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Originally Posted by Washout

What is missing currently is the Sinclair, Acorn, Vic etc from those times i.e. low cost of entry if not that capable, but at least enough to get into CNC and go onto to better things.

My personal take is that there is a home manufacturing wave starting/ocurring, much as there was with IT in the 80's and its all about riding that wave or sinking (lord knows there was much of both and still is in IT).

Exciting times I say and mistakes are acceptable provided you don't make them twice and not everyone wants the moon immediately, when low earth orbit is good enough to learn from ;-)

My 2 Cents/Pennies.

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I would love too see this happen the way it did when i got my ZX80, but i suspect it will be some time yet as people are still basing the price of ready built basic machines, NOT on a fair profit based on the cost of parts and the time building it, but on how much they think you can make from it, they are basicly greedy, and then there are the "Martians know it all's who spurt scientific and mathamatic calculations, scarring away all but the bravest who dip their toes in the water" this was also the case before Mr Sinclaire...

I think there is room for a ZX80 type machine for Aluminium. basic enough to get you hooked!! and maybe good enough to earn you a little cash to cover the build costs, and maybe make some parts for your second machine, which if you get this far you will obviously build.

It wouldnt have to be ground breaking, in fact it should be the opposite, as basic as you can get and be able to use the parts when you quickly grow out of it, upon realising its limitations, if only just to give you an idea of what the martians are talking about.

Lets not forget the people who have helped me, let them design the basic machine (you know who you are) The straight talkers who stopped me wasting money, and gave me clear concise and uncomplicated opinions that i trusted, because they spoke common sence (although obviosly not common to me at the time) .

The people who give advice that tries to stop you wasting time, money, and resources, on machine specs you you neither need nor have the mental capacity to build or operate if you are asking how to build one..

Maybe there should just be a "Basic Design", NOT to Re-invent the wheel, but to give you an idea of what is required and the limitations of such a Project, without breaking the bank.

At least there will be a flow of usefull second hand parts we can all buy cheap!! :friendly_wink: if the builder decides its not for them..

Rick

I think the idea for a structured guide to cnc machine building is a excellent idea, Jonathan's parametric CAD design could be the ultimate goal of such a guide, but first of all much of the data would need to be gathered in a structured form as Lee is suggesting. It would be an amazing resource and would have saved me many hours of drawing and creating a Bill of Materials on a machine I will probably never build - RE: BuildingAfloat I have published the current layout in my thread, while it is not complete yet, it is pretty much the machine I plan to build (if there are no glaring errors!).
When my machine design is finalised, I am going to see if I can make it "parametric" so all one needs to do is enter the desired cutting area and the frame and components should scale from there. The calcs aren't difficult and I'll do a BOM in Excel that wil be parametric, just not sure if Sketchup has that facility yet.

It is clear that there are many many designs from "hose clips and skate bearing" builds through to totally dedicated machines and a massive spectrum in between. Maybe a critique of the various components that are commonly available to the DIY market, together with an axis by axis analysis of the various layouts possible could be collated from the vast knowledge base we have here. All spreadsheets we have stored in one location would be useful - I have a pulley and belt spreadsheet I will tidy up and post, if there isn't one already? - I couldn't find one easily and that is some of the trouble with an "organically" grown space such as this.

I agree totally, one design will never fit all, but we can provide the pros & cons of particular layouts, components or even complete machines as a guide for those who are brand new to the subject or even just to help those that are having problems visualising what is being said.

I strongly beleive having a machine layout (or layouts) that MYCNC recommends as a starting point, would in no way restrict innovation, but it could save those of us that are not design genii a lot of time and aggrevation.

Cheers,
Geoff.