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I,m looking for a gas bottle to work a mig welder. I dont want to break the bank, as once my build is complete then i wont have a need for the bottle. A loan of a bottle is preferable, is there anyone near me in Lochgelly able to help, or any advice is gratefully appreciated.
regards alex.
Alex, be careful with gas bottles & where you keep them because if your not covered for them on your insurance then you can have all sorts of problems should you need to make a claim.
I got rid of stuff like that I had stored in my industrial unit because I needed to get the cost of my business insurance down when I stopped working full time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin54
cheers martin, its the guy thats helping me thats looking for one, so ill let him know. He's had one in the past as he had his own business, so not sure of his insurance requirements. They are like rocking horse shit lol.
alex
Quick google search brought this up which might be of interest to him if he doesn't use it alot, not a fortune to rent from what I could see & nearest stockinst is Leith so not a million miles away.
Argoshield Light 2-litre cylinder - Products & Supply > Industrial Gases > Shielding Gases > Argoshield > 2 litre Argoshield Light filled cylinder | BOConline UK
Oh also meant to say if you are looking for steel try Graham at GM steel, very helpful & knowledgeable guy. They are in Cowdenbeath so not far from you.
Hazards a lot higher with oxy acetelyne bottles around.
Mig gas is just inert compressed gas, argon mixed with CO2 , don`t be tempted to try pub gas cylinders , its CO2 only and spits like a damp bonfire. Argoshield/Coogar argon mixes are easier to use.
2 choices fo rcylinder rental, BOC or Air Products, Air Products are in Randolph Ind in Kirkcaldy, used to be friendlier than BOC, you end up with at least a 12month contract on the bottle which is generally more expensive than getting it refilled. Also need a regulator to fit the bottle.
Or just use the disposable little bottles from Machine Mart for a one off project
.CO2 / Argon Mix Gas Cylinder (110Ltr) - Machine Mart
Though the BOC deal Martin pointed out looks very competitive.
Gasless mig costs an absolute fortune in wire but is good for outdoor repairs where gas shielding can get blown away,
Hopefully not hijacking or derailing the thread, but is there any difference in technique when using no-gas mig welding over gas mig welding?
Reason I ask is due to the impending move to a new workshop I'm looking at buying a mig welder of some kind to construct a work/machine bench from 40x40x3mm or similar sized box section steel.
Cheers
Chris
A friend of mine based in Cumbernauld can supply small mig gas bottles. I think they cost around £50 but the bottle is yours after you buy it. Then its around £25 for a refill if you need it.
Mail me if you want his contact number.
cheers for that mucker. i can get one from BOC which is a 2ltr bottle at £18.85 per year, and £16.80 to re-fill. It lasts for 50 minutes approx continuous welding. Is this the same bottle??Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Goblin
regards alex.
Alex,
it is a Hobby Weld 15 bottle which I think is 9lts.
The small gas bottles can be a bit of minefield.
Some use larger bottles at lower pressures, and some use smaller bottles at higher pressures.
Have a search on ebay, as I was surprised at how many suppliers there are when I was considering cancelling the contract for the full size bottle.
As for insurance, having a bottle of LPG in your garage is far more high risk, than a bottle of inert gas that in the worst case scenario might blow the top of the bottle. It's oxy-actylene that insurance companies don't like. One bottle that will go bang and take of skywards with no warning if you do something wrong, and one that'll sit gradually heating up until it ruptures and flatten everything within quite a large radius if you get it wrong, it's pretty easy to understand why insurance companies don't like them.
Probably a bit late, but I'm a C&G qualified welder. For home-use MIG, I use CO2 without any problems at all. A lot of people say "don't use CO2, too much spatter, etc" but you'll find that 99% of them have never tried it! You will get better penetration with CO2 than Argoshield and only need around 5LPM gas flow. I used to work for one of Europe's largest steel fabrication companies and we used nothing but CO2 about 20 years ago. For home use, you can get CO2 from any gas supplier (or a friendly pub landlord!). I paid £10 for a 9L bottle about 5 years ago. The other option is to get Argoshield from an Adams Gas outlet. I've recently got a 9L bottle of pure argon for my TIG set. It was something like £55 deposit on the bottle and £50 for a refill. Personally, I will not pay bottle rental because these little blighters last for years and I do quite a lot of welding.
>>"don't use CO2, too much spatter, etc" but you'll find that 99% of them have never tried it!
I must be a 1%er then.
My EXPERIENCE , as an inexperienced amateur welder is that aron mixes are a lot easier, as an experienced weleder your mileage may and probably does vary
MIG Welding Gas Comparison
I guess experience does help, but I don't find differences in using CO2 or Argoshield, other than CO2 is cheaper and gives better penetration. The main downside of CO2 vs Argon mixes is that CO2 can freeze the regulator under heavy use, especially if gas flow is set too high. I suppose gas quality also varies from supplier to supplier and I dunno what those disposables are like....pretty poor I would imagine.
EDIT: I just remembered a conversation I had a few years ago about CO2 quality. The basic conclusion was that "pub gas" CO2 has better purity than fire extinguisher or welding gas because it is "food grade". Whether there's any truth in that, I really don't know. I've only ever used "pub" CO2 bottles on my home welder.
I did take a look at the link posted above, but didn't read beyond the first few lines:
You cannot simply turn the machine on and change the gas without changing settings! No matter how experienced someone is at welding, they'll never produce a decent weld if the machine isn't set up correctly. Every single job needs to be set up to suit the materials being used. Even the gas flow may need to be adjusted as it DOES affect the weld finish. Too much gas flow can be as bad as too little. Another big pitfall of home users is that they buy cheap equipment like those Chinese things or the low powered sets like the Clarke 100A which aren't much good for anything other than tacking sheet metal. Personally, I'd never buy a welder with less than 160A, with 200A being preferred if you can afford it. It's basically down to duty cycles and having plenty of head room so you're not running flat-out all the time. I bought an Oxford 180A mig nearly 20 years ago and have used approx 8 or 9 15Kg spools of 0.8mm wire in that time. The only maintenance I've had to do is blow the dust out a couple of times and replace the gas shroud and a few tips. On certain things, it doesn't pay to buy cheap.Quote:
All welds were made in the same hour with the same welder settings
I have had a go at repairing a couple of the clark type migs and boy are they crap. Personally I have a Sterling mig which has hardly been used and a Pico 140 inverter which is a great little machine. I think some of the newer inverters will go to 160 amp will running off a 13 amp plug but you wont get much more than that but I wouldnt fancy trying to run it at a high duty cycle or it will probably cook the plug never mind blowing the fuse. I think that is the main reason why people go for the small cheap kits is that they can run them from a 13 amp plug for a while.
We have a load of old Murex 500s at work that will be at least 20 years old and still give a great weld. They dont look very good but do the job.
I run my Oxford off a 13A socket but it does take the MCB out at top end, so I fitted it to a spur and used a 16A C rated MCB. It still has a 13A fuse in the plug. Or at least I *think* it does. Haven't had the plug top off for at least 10 years! The beauty of these old Victorian houses is that the cellar has become my workshop and the now disused "back room" chimney has an extractor fan fitted into it, so all my welding smoke is cleared within seconds.
Those Murex lumps need a crane to move them about but they last forever. The production place I used to work at was running them at 300A+ all day, every day (and sometimes all night too!) and they were about 15 years old and still going strong when I left 10 years ago. They're probably still using them now. :smug:
Yeah the old Murex machines will outlast the newer stuff easily. The thing that gets me is the price and complexity of the new inverter type welders compaired to the older thyristor bridge type. They cost a severe amount more that the old ones, are a pain in the arse to fix but do they really give a better weld?
co2 isn't as good for mig as a proper argon/co2/o mix, however it does work well enough for lots of applications.
Pure co2 does create a hotter weld, however that can be a problem if dealing with thin metal.
The main benefit of the proper mix, is it has a trace of oxygen (2% IIRC), which helps burn of impurities.
Ideally you should have all metal ground clean, and free of oil, but that's not always possible.
With pure co2, any impurities can cause excessive splatter/porous welds, whereas a proper mix is a bit more tolerant and minor impurities will burn out into the flux instead of affecting the weld.
And for the benefits of Birchy, I also have a bit paper that says I can weld. Having a bit paper that says you can weld 6mm bits of plate in designated ways, doesn't mean you can weld, as was demonstarted by some of the numpties who managed to pass the course the same time as me.
We have two guys at work who are the best welders I have ever seen. Can weld all day long. Ones called Robot 1 and the other Robot 2. Dont know what their qualifications are though:whistle:
Sorry couldnt resist.
If only they could develop a robot that can handle patching back together rusted to nothing metal, along with straightening out and welding back together deformed metal...
21 years of experience certainly helps. I don't disagree that Argon/CO2 mixes can be better, but for home use, the cost far outweighs the small benefits. Mig isn't the best suited for anything less than 1mm thick. I've welded cars and sheet metal < 1mm thick but have to spot it to avoid overheating, but that's generally the case no matter what gas you use. Nowadays, I use my TIG set if I'm working with sheet metals or need better pool control. Welding rusty, galvanized or painted metal is bad practice. Preparation is everything. But you already know that. :friendly_wink:
BOC and Volkszone - Gas Offer - MIG Welding Forum
This is your best best for cost effectiveness There are many rent free deals out there but they are still not as cost effective as the volkszone offer. The deal is still live and active and you can return the bottle as and when you wish.
You may also like to take a good read around the forum as there is a host of info on there.
Kind regards,
Scott
I did look at that a few months ago when I was looking for pure argon for my TIG set but at £43 a year rental and £32 a refill (for Argoshield...pure argon is probably more), with a 9L bottle likely to last me about 5 years, it wasn't the cheapest option. Adams Gas is more expensive at £55 deposit and £50 a refill but even if the bottle only lasts 2 years, total cost is £105 vs £118. But yes, if you're likely to empty a bottle in less than a year (which is a LOT of welding), then that BOC offer is the cheapest.
Preperation is key, however not always possible given some of the repair jobs I get to tackle.
Puresheild is a lot more expensive than Argosheild. I'm sure it was around twice the price the last time I got a refill.
I should really return it, as I've hardly used TIG for a while, but it's still half full, and is useful for those odd jobs where MIG is no good.
Must admit been subject of some debate and experimentation over the years..
> CO2 can freeze the regulator under heavy use
Few turns of microbore copper wound round a 60W inspection lamp bulb used to be the answer to expensive heated regulators appparently.
>"pub" CO2 bottles
Some `smoothflow` or something , gases have a nitrogen/CO2 mix for smaller bubbles, worth avoiding.
Was one theory about CO2 being `rougher` than argon mixes, was possible lower temperature freezing out more atmospheric moisture into the weld.
Big machines certainly help, being handed torch of an already set up 350A Cebora was a whole lot easier than trying to set up a Migmate 100.
Little bottles main problem is once opened they rarely reseal properley so can cost wrong side of a tenner to make a couple of tacks.
Fabrication welding on the bench with new stock a bit differnt from repair welding of rust to rust in a freezing lane as well ;-)
Wire feed is one thig that sticks in memory as being much steadier on big machines, colleague used to repair machines, Oxford used to make oil-cooled copper cored welders, another world from air cooled aluminium, but another universe price wise as well.