Renovating a Hardinge HLV-H

I acquired this filthy Hardinge from a firm for which my brother has been doing some work. Apparently, they acquired it in a company buy-out and had it shipped to their high precision dept. The manager took one look and consigned it to the scrap heap (their HLV's are pristine and polished :)).


http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...3&d=1233771422


That's my younger brother on the fork-lift and my next eldest brother's car and trailer. With my Eldest brother giving me a hand to get the thing off the trailer it was quite a family affair. Handy things, brothers :)

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...1&d=1234129441

Once in the garage, the first job was to get rid of the horrible off-white hand paint job...

Fortunately the lathe must have had a minor 'tart up' prior to the hand painting; The darker grey blow-over spray job has not stuck to the original Hardinge enamel very well , so I was able to simply scrape off the two layers in one simply operation.

I'm not sure what to do about painting it yet; I'd to spray it but my compressor's too small and the lathe is far too heavy to move to a spray shop - I'm thinking about rollering it on ???

I heard back from Axis_gb , Sony's Uk distributor for the lathe's magnescale DRO. They have a replacement switch overlay in stock for <£10 and will supply a manual for free :) Truly superb service :)

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attach...5&d=1234129754

It's a testament to the robustness of the magnescale scales that they were still working (over the 2" or so that I could move them) while stuffed almost full of congealed coolant. There's no way a glass scale would have survived. I took them apart and scraped most of the stuff out, then cleaned them with safewash pcb cleaner (doesn't eat plastic, unlike some solvents) now they're working OK. (



More good news...

I had been disappointed to find that there were no change wheels or banjo behind the machine's gearbox cover (all the pictures I had seen of the HLV's had gears). Mick (the man on the forklift) spoke to one of the machinists at the firm I got the lathe from and he says they don't need change gears at all to cut English threads, the built in gear box works without them. :)

When I removed the power feed motor I thought i saw some water run out of the apron gearbox. I had to crack the box open to check...

Inside the apron gears and clutches (for cross and longitudinal feeds) are slimey but in good order. No obvious sign of water ingress.


I found out from Hardinge UK today that the machine was made in mid 1961! The hours meter on the control box says 20,000 hrs so it's not done a lot of work in the last 47 years.

One strange thing: the tailstock is metric (the lathe is otherwise english) so it must hve ben swapped out at some time in the past. The picture shows the tailstock leadscrew ; notice the double row bearing and adjustable backlash compensation.


What's the best polish for steel? A couple of minutes with a wire brush is all that's needed to clean up the rusty bits, but the steel is so hard even wet n dry won't make it shine.

Looks in relatively good nick, just been a bit unloved. Do you really need to polish the steel? Abrasives and lathes don't really mix all that well, OTOH a coat of paint could work wonders.

Question is, did they junk it for a reason? The fact that it's still around could mean there's not a lot wrong with it :beer:
I am also a fan of Safewash, smells like bubble mixture, expensive but not so bad if you buy the 25 litre size. I use it in an ultrasonic tank, dissolves awkward organics and leaves everything shining like a new pin.

Robin

Wicked project Bill, I will be keeping an eye on this one.

Just taking back to the grey makes it look so much better, remember as you do this you’re doing it for us both and possibly some others!

I think it’s just a case of not being to the "managers" taste by the sounds of it Robin, fingers x for bill that it’s not got any major faults.

I would love to have a project like this, the space would be nice to ;-): beer:

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

What's the best polish for steel? A couple of minutes with a wire brush is all that's needed to clean up the rusty bits, but the steel is so hard even wet n dry won't make it shine.

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Go careful with that wire brush - it looks like you may have too large a wire diameter and it's gouging the surface. I used Scotchbrite on mine with WD-40. Took a lot of elbow grease, but the result was excellent. I never had to use any polish on it after that. My bare surfaces looked a lot like yours when I got it, except for the paint. Several views of it as it looks now are at http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/

- Mike

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Go careful with that wire brush - it looks like you may have too large a wire diameter and it's gouging the surface. I used Scotchbrite on mine with WD-40.

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Thanks for your concern but, those 'gouges' are where I waved a diamond hone over the top to see if anything would touch it at all (they are really very fine scratches - they've caught the camera flash))

Scotchbrite and WD sounds like the right combination :)

http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/hardinge.htm - Wow, If I could get it to look like yours, I'd be as pleased as Punch :)

You seem like a man who would know... Have you trying chemical blueing on any parts?

Got as far as removing the leadscrew half nuts and carriage today...

I dismantled the apron and found the first real sign of wear; The carriage drive gear inner bearing has been eating it's way into the gear shaft. I'm not should what I can do, other than replace the gear and bearings. I'll email ZMT later to see if they have a good S/H one.

The overlay for the Sony DRO arrived with manual as promised. Many thanks to Richard at Axis GB (Sony's UK distributor for magnescale) :)

I though I'd finished scraping muck off of this machine, but when I removed the feed motor control box, I found another pound of two of the **** stuffed under the end of the bed.

Worse than a teenager's bedroom!

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

Thanks for your concern but, those 'gouges' are where I waved a diamond hone over the top to see if anything would touch it at all (they are really very fine scratches - they've caught the camera flash))

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Whew! Glad to hear that. They should polish out with the Scotchbrite, then.

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

Have you trying chemical blueing on any parts?

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Yup, but on my Bridgeport, not on the Hardinge. Got it from a gunsmith supplier - Brownell's here in the US. They had a number of different types, including both cold and hot solutions, in small bottles. The cold solution works well if you don't rub it incessantly. Like yours, mine had the quick threading lever on the compound broken off, so I made a new one from 1/4" stainless rod. That didn't need blueing, though. Your carriage drive gear looks like mine did. I toyed with the idea of having the shaft flame sprayed and then grinding it to size, but I finally just bit the bullet and bought a new one and a new Oilite bushing from Hardinge. I don't recall how much it was...around $80USD sounds familiar.

In the feed motor control box, make sure someone has replaced the original selenium rectifiers with solid state diodes.

You're making great progress, BTW!

There are a few articles at http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/tool_restoration.html that might interest you as you get closer to completion.

- Mike

Well one week after I started scraping and brushing the dirt off... I'm still scraping and brushing off dirt! Everytime I remove a badge or cover, there's congealed muck behind it.

I spent an hour Saturday freeing up the spindle lock microswitch mechanism (stops the spindle motor running while the spindle lock is engaged)

I can't make up my mind whether to strip the gearbox, headstock and bed off of the stand for painting. On the one hand it would be the proper way to do it. On the other, it would take an enourmous amount of extra effort for little gain.

As much as I would like to, I'm not trying to get this thing back to pristine condition, that would take more money and time than I have available right now So, the target is a clean, painted lathe in useable condition.

I'm investigating ways to power the various motors ATM Mike's step-up transformer into a 415v VFD looks favourite. The main motor is not easily replaced; it is dual speed 1480/480 rpm and balanced to 0.0003" (peak-peak)!

[Edit] At one point I was conviced there was a casting fault in the rear T slot. The muck was so solid I had to hammer at my T slot scraper to remove the stuff. I ought to report the previous users to the RSPCH

Great progress, Bill! I don't want to deflect you from a careful restoration, but like you, I was leaning toward a glossy repaint job with the lathe all broken down to its molecular level. However, I was anxious to try it out, so I used a spray can of primer that was the same color as the lathe (which had been repainted in a flat light gray color) and just touched up all the really bad looking parts, like the doors, tray, etc. That wuz around 8 years ago....:rolleyes:

Speaking of VFDs, I just snagged a nice 2hp Cutler-Hammer 415-480v unit for my vertical bandsaw today on ebay for USD$30. With patience, they are out there.

- Mike

Hi, Mike,

I have the 415vac VFD but I'm having trouble locating a (cheap) step-up transformer over here. Most of the 'surplus' stores have disappeared over the last few years (killed off by high business rates I suspect) and heavy item like transformers tend not to be listed on ebay because of the cost of postage. Worst case, I'll buy a new one at ~£100.

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That wuz around 8 years ago....

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Ha yes, these things only get one shot at completion. :)

Progress is a little slow ATM due to work commitments. I have done some work on the lathe, but none that is even slightly photogenic. I'm just at that 'preparing for paint' stage, the one that seem to take takes forever :(

Managed to get a little bit of rubbing down done today.

DA'd most of the loose paint off of the stand and started to fill the worst chips in the headstock.

My brother has loaned me his HVLP spray gun which, he assures me, will work with my limited air supply and not spread too much paint around the inside of the garage.

The stand is galvanised so will need self etching primer - nasty stuff - I don't think I'll try spraying it on.

Looking good mate, hope you had a mask on while you sanded that down. Got an order waiting for you, cant have the machine operator faling sick on us at this stage in the game :beer:

Rollered a coat of self-etch primer onto the stand. While that was drying I popped down to Gramic's to sort out some grey primer, thinners and top coat.

When I arrived back, I gave the stand a coat of grey primer, again with a roller.

I then spent a hour and half trying to get any paint at all out of the HVLP spray gun - it was just spitting it out -, before I realised the filter was clogged !!! (hey, I've not used one before and there are a million combinations of the knobs to try before the 'obvious' strikes)

But, I Finally managed to coat the the head in a initial layer of primer.

I now know that a) most of the little knicks and scratches will disappear under the paint b) I've completely missed rubbing down several places, and c) I've enough air to spray it - If I can get to grips with that ******ing HVLP gun.

Between visitors (why does everyone turn up while you're in the middle of painting?), I managed to roller on a layer of self-etch and grey primer onto the main tray today. It looks so much better painted :)


This evening I cleaned and rebuilt the compound slide - compare before and after :)

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

This evening I cleaned and rebuilt the compound slide - compare before and after

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WOW, this is coming along very nicly mate, i did look at your other post and wonder if you would be doing the tray as well. Makes sense while your there huh.

Is that really the same unit (compound slide) ? what did you use to get it up so well it looks so much better.

awaiting the next events....

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

WOW, this is coming along very nicly mate,

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Thanks Lee :)

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i did look at your other post and wonder if you would be doing the tray as well. Makes sense while your there huh.

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There is a degree of madness in my method - I primed the tray last so as not to bash it about while preparing the head for spraying.

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Is that really the same unit (compound slide) ? what did you use to get it up so well it looks so much better.

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Mostly a soft wire brush, wd40 and a 'scotch-brite' buffing wheel from RDG plus the lashings of elbow grease. :)

Having spent all week preparing primed parts, I got brave today and applied some top coat...

My first attempts were something only Bryant and May would be proud of :o

Once I'd figured out that the HVLP gun will only spray water thin paint things improved. (although I notice i've missed a couple of places so a second coat will be needed)

Tomorrow I plan to tackle the stand and if that goes well the tray and bed.

Why is there a line all the way around the hand wheel in the last pic? You know where there is no paint.

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Why is there a line all the way around the hand wheel in the last pic? You know where there is no paint.

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Yes. I didn't mask the polished rim so, before the paint was hard (so it wouldn't chip), I scraped off around the raised edge. I'll clean the over-spray off the rim with emery.

Well the first coat is done.

Took me a half hour to sweep and hoover the garage floor and generally get ready. another half hour faffing around trying to get the paint the right consistancy so it would make it out of the gun without spitting & blobbing (basically, as runny as water). Surprisingly, I've only one small run (on the back, where I couldn't get far enough away from the stand to spray it properly), if anything I'm still not putting enough paint on.


I'll have to get another litre of paint Monday ready for a second coat sometime next week.

I got mixed result from my second attempt... :(

The small door has come up really well (I'd only given it a quick coat before I'd run out of paint). The second coat on the head and bed are fine . The stand is OK

However. The electrical door, tail stock and power feed box have all pickled into a crinkle finish and parts of the table have also a hint of it.

I'm not really sure why; perhaps the underlying paint was not properly dry, perhaps it was on too thick. :confused:

I'll live with the table top, but I'll have to wait for the paint to harden before I can rub-down and re-spray the other bits.

I'll take some pictures of the head/bed tomorrow. Meanwhile, here's a picture of the reassembled carriage handle. (that odd blue line is a trick of the light - it's actually a very faint scratch that will easily polish out)

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

I got mixed result from my second attempt... :(
However. The electrical door, tail stock and power feed box have all pickled into a crinkle finish and parts of the table have also a hint of it.
I'm not really sure why; perhaps the underlying paint was not properly dry, perhaps it was on too thick. :confused:out)

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Ah yes...my favorite paint style :rolleyes: (since I restore WWII aircraft radios which are almost universally finished in black wrinkle paint.) The wrinkle is caused by statistically random uneven paint film contraction between coats during the curing process. The wrinkle or crackle paints of the 1930s and 1940s were actually produced with additives and techniques that promoted the process between coats.

More to the point in your case, there are at least four elements I can recall that contribute to unintentional wrinkling:
1) too much paint film thickness in each coat (partially related to #3 below)
2) incompatible solvents or paint formulations between coats
3) incomplete curing (evaporation of solvents or crosslinking, depending on paint material) of a previous coat before a second coat is applied
and
4) temperature high enough to accelerate problems 1 through 3

What that means in a practical sense is to make sure the solvents of multiple coats are compatible (e.g., water based and oil based following coats are not a good idea, though they often work fine if enough time is allowed between coats), wait long enough between coats, avoid drying heat lamps unless you are sure of the other factors, and keep the film thickness reasonably thin.

It seems sorta ironic thinking about the reverse of the finishes I try to achieve, but the basic principles are fundamental to both results.:)

-Mike

Hi Mike,

Yep, I think no3 is the cause of my problems (and maybe a little No1 - It was surprisingly easy to go from too little paint to too much with just flick of the fan control)

The stand/bed and headstock are OK (I can live with them). I'll redo the the tailstock, electrical door and power feed box later when it's had plenty of time to dry.


I spent this morning bolting a few bits back on (just to make my self feel better about it) I'm happy again :)

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Originally Posted by skittles

Awesome job so far!

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Thanks. It seems to have taken an age to ge this far.

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As a matter of interest, how many lathes do you currently own? :D

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Just two :) The other is, I've just discovered, a 9 " Southbend 415-Y automotive special (i.e. it's red instead of grey)

[edit] The 415 was cast on 6 Jan 1937 http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...&postcount=589

wow, machine looks so nice, great job bill.

Yesterday, after moaning about the lack of industry in Colchester, I found a firm who can metal-spray my carriage gear that is, literally, a stone's throw away from me (well, a stone's throw with a good arm and a fair wind).

I thought Colchester Rewind and Repair just fixed electric motors, but they have a whole range of medium-heavy engineering equipment - You know you're onto a winner when you walk in the door and get; "Hello, I know you. You're Andy's mate; You fixed my computer..."

After talking to Paul, their spraying expert, we agreed that even their hardest power would not be suitable for a needle roller, so I chose to go with the hard power and to make bronze bushes to support the sprayed gear.

Today. I Spent most of the morning waiting for a phone call from CR+R only to find Virgin's phone/Internet & TV were all down :( I popped 'round the corner after lunch and picked up the newly sprayed gear :)

The little Southbend made light work of a couple of bronze bushes (it really is a good little lathe); I decided to put a seal on the rack side of the carriage bearing. I struggled a bit to make the O-ring groove; didn't have a suitable tool, but managed in the end by grinding the life out of an old boring bar (the groove could have been a little deeper, it's a right ******** to get the gear past the seal without pinging the o-ring out of its seat)

I was expecting to have a major job honing/boring the two bearings parallel (the apron front is pinned to the carriage and there are other gears to keep aligned so it has to be right), however, with nothing more than light honing through the pair of bearing with a brass rod and a tap or two with a rubber mallet, the thing went together a treat :)

I couldn't resist test fitting the carriage onto the bed just to feel how the thing moved --Smooooooth :)

Managed to assemble the apron today. It was a lot more work than I had thought, but got there in the end.

I used Loctite 5922 to seal the apron to the carriage (looks and smells just like hermatite but is black instead of red), seems to work well; no oil leaks so far :)

I have yet to find or make a core-plug to cover the carriage gear, but I have a novell idea based on the fact the hole is 1 1/8" - If it works, it'll raise a smile or two...

Cleaned and mounted the cross slide and compound slides yesterday & today.


Made a new cover for the coolant sump (the old one was missing) and primed a few parts for spraying tommorrow (if I get the time)

Sprayed, assembled and fitted the Coolant pump (had to make a new filter from some purf sheet) .

Sprayed and fitted the sump cover. The orignal one fitted to HLV's had a cover for the drain. I'm not sure if I'll bother with one, the holes in the drain are ~1/8" - I doubt I'll lose anything that small.

The spare Bijur oil metering unit arrived today from Central Surplus in the US. They turned out to be the wrong type but I was able to remove the little steel collar to replace the one I broke on my units.

With the metering unit repaired I could replace the Oiler distribution block. This was badly corroded by coolant, so I milled it flat on all sides.

I made a new knob for the oil pump from a cupboard door handle (I may make a better one later).

Hopefully, tomorrow I'll have another go at spraying the tail stock and control box.

I am amazed at the speed this is all happenning at, do you have nothing else to do? :beer:

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Originally Posted by Robin Hewitt

I am amazed at the speed this is all happenning at, do you have nothing else to do? :beer:

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Things are a little quiet on the jobs front (only a couple of PA amps to fix :(), so I might as well use my time to increase the value of my assets.

Plus, it's stuck right in the middle of my workshop which is stopping work on the drill/mill cnc conversion.

And, I have a motorcycle parked in the conservatory which is generating a certain amount of "haven't you done that yet" pressure.

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Originally Posted by BillTodd

Plus, it's stuck right in the middle of my workshop which is stopping work on the drill/mill cnc conversion.

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I had much the same problem with an injection moulder, I could move it with a pallet truck but I couldn't shift it sideways to tuck it up against the wall and under some shelving.

Ended up putting it on castors, Draper do fixed wheel castors rated 250kg apiece and you can get them at around £7.50 each if you shop around.

May not be best suited to a lathe, it could end up chasing you around the workshop if you went off centre, but as a temporary measure while fixing it up perhaps?

OTOH if it did chase you I'd want to see the video :D

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Ended up putting it on castors

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I'm going to have to do something similar; I found while rebuilding that access to the rear of the bed is essential, and almost impossible from the from front. I definiatly need to be able to roll it away from the wall easily.

I painted the control box and and (for the third time) the tail stock and power feed box. This time the paint looks OK :)


I had time to test the DRO (having mounted the Cross slide scale) and much to my disappointment found a fault - It was counting to 0.0004" then displaying 'Error'. A quick email to Richard at Axis returned some basic ohm-meter test routines.

After finding a small amount of corrosion in the scale-end connector I worked my up the lead to the 'water-proof' quick connect. It was solid with corrosion (see picture) I had to pick at it with a needle just to get the connector apart. The coolant has eaten the copper from the braided screen and a couple of the wires, leaving empty plastic sleeves ! I stripped back the cable to find it in the same condition, all but a inch or two from the scale end.

I bodged the connector back together soldering the last two inches of cable to the pins of the plug. Now the scale is working again.

Richard says Axis have spares, I am steeling my self for the price.

Tomorrow, I'll reassemble the tail-stock and collect closer.

Lovely day today, almost Spring like...:p


Assembled and fitted the collet closer.

Assembled and fitted the tailstock - Now I know why the power feed box is so massive; The tailstock is so heavy I had to rest it on the power feed box to be able to align it with the bed ('cos there's no way I could lift it at arm's length)

I don't like the handle on the tail stock it's not a Hardinge wheel (it looks someone knocked it up in an afternoon). I doubt I'll get a proper replacement anytime soon' so I've been looking at the Myford spares that RDG are selling. I think the largest one will do the job with only a small amount of re-jigging - It'll look a lot better then the current one.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/11971.jpg



Repainted the DRO mount. It looked heavy in matt black so I thought i'd try silver instead (it's OK I suppose )

Tomorrow I'll have a go at mounting the carriage DRO scale on the front of the bed.