new build opinions required

Hi

I will be finally getting round to building machine I have had in mind, over the next few weeks, and could d with some advise. I want to build a strong machine, and can get the frame built up. I really want 1200mm or better Y. 2.2 or 3.2, on X, as much depth and can get on Z.I want the Y and Z to be strong enough to handle a B/C type head if needed, but will mostly be used for cutting stone.

Opinions am looking for

Gantry

1. X configuration motor choices and design. Am Thinking Nema 42 single motor 2 ball-screws, or 2 nema 34s and 2 ball screws.

1.1 Nema 42 bolted to end of machine, timing and gears to drive 2 ballscrews ( what problems will I face ),
1.2 2*nema 34s, (driving direct or geared ? ) and slaved ( does this give accuracy problems )

Table build.

I can get steel at reasonable rates and ally if needed, and my brother makes gates and has workshop with tools and jigs, am thinking that for end accuracy and convenience, I am going to get it made in 5 bits at least ( unless advised otherwise, 2 sides, 2 ends and the bed ). and bolt it together and tack it on site. I know I am going to have to take a long time makings sure the frames level and accurate.

2.1 any advise on what profiles, thickness’s or design am thinking 125mm box section, 2 oblongs about 1.2mtr high by 3.2mtr long, and 2 squares 1.2mtr
2.2 am making the bed in three sections, very sturdy, ( 1 4th axis, plasma/laser, printing area ). any advice ?

I will ask the other questions when I have finalised the design, am currently reading through the threads to get tips ) . Your opinions will not not be wasted, I have the funds to build this and I want to get the frame built next week, and the motors and heads ordered this Friday or Monday. Am thinking about 1200 for motors and electronics , 800 for the metal for the table ( cost price ), 600 or more for rails and screws. ( leaving 400 unbaked but can be increased ) .

cheers

found this thread, it answers nearly everything i was looking for

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/router...g-machine.html

finally getting on with this.

Going for a rig thats 2000mm double x 1200mm y 300mm z

ordered this lot

supported linear rails SBR20-300/1200/2000mm rails(6 supported rails+12 SBR20UU bearing blocks)
4pcs of ballscrews RM1605-350/1200/2000/2000mm overall length-C7(4screws+4ballnuts+4end-machinings)
4 SETS OF BK/BF12(with locknuts and cir-cplis)
4pcs of flexible couplings 6.35mm*8mm

am building a base similar to the above mentioned thread, with a few modds for rigid bed

am going for duel x motors, so heres my first question.

There now seems to be nema23 and nema24 motors, with the latter having more power eg
4 Axis Nema24 Stepper Motor 567oz-in CNC Controller Kit With Display And Keypad | eBay

so, is it worth the extra for the nema 24s, or is there something am not seeing ?

I want the Y gantry to be heave duty so i can maybe strap a B/C head on,

question 2 would a nema24 be overkill for a y axis at 1200mm travel, would i be better of with nema23

Question 3, i want to build a heavy duty rotary table on part of the bed, for stone carving. would nema 34 cause me any problems with lighter weight things like wood or foam and what gearing would you recommend.

i sort of need to order the motors over the next 2 days

Sorry I can't advise on most of your questions but these motors are 4Nm (same as those in your link) but nema23, I got some and they run very smoothly albeit just on my bench at the moment.

Nema23 4Nm

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Originally Posted by george uk

am going for duel x motors, so heres my first question.

There now seems to be nema23 and nema24 motors, with the latter having more power eg
4 Axis Nema24 Stepper Motor 567oz-in CNC Controller Kit With Display And Keypad | eBay

so, is it worth the extra for the nema 24s, or is there something am not seeing ?

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YES your not seeing plenty.?

First the only difference between Nema 23 & 24 is physical outer Dim 23=57mm 24=60mm both have the same Bolt centres so both can be used on same mount.

The Difference you'll be seeing between them is Holding torque, Probably 3.1Nm and 4Nm.
Now the thing you don't realise is that what's important is the Inductance rating and often the larger 4Nm motors have much higher inductance than the lower 3.1Nm and this means they don't perform has good.
Now the Motors Eddy linked to seem quite Low inductance for 4Nm if that is indeed true.?? But most of the 4nm Chinese motors I've encountered have been quite High and IME the slightly lower 3.1Nm motors perform much better.

Now it seems to me your Rushing and not really knowing what your buying or what Mass you have to move.? This is a recipe for disaster and you will end up buying the wrong stuff if your not careful.!

The Kit you linked to is a prime example, it's Rubbish and completely wrong for your needs. The Drives are Rubbish junk, The PSU is way to Low voltage at 36V for those motors you'll end up with a very low performing machine. Thou this won't be too much of a problem thou has the drives will probably have died in short time so it won't be going anywhere.!!

Honestly I'm not just being Negative or pulling down but please take a Step back put a foot on the brakes and assess what you need better otherwise you'll regret it and waste shit load of money.

I'll PM you my number if you want to ring me and I'll try to help.

The Nema24 motors are 4mH/phase and ideally need 60v but are shipping with a 36v supply and 42v drives . The Nema23s are 3mH/phase and ideally need 55v and ship with 38v supply and 50v drives.

The Nema23 are the better option.

Call Dean/JAZZCNC/ and cancel or put a hold on your order!

Most sellers stock everything or can source it, so stop the order until its not too late. Later you can just order from them the correct things. And add some money to the bill :-)

Best advice I can give is talk to Jazz. Could save you a whole lot of expense and agro. Have spoken and emailed jazz a fair bit and he certainly knows about cnc machines.I would grab his offer for help as it is a rare thing nowadays for someone to offer to pass on their hard earned knowledge.
Jazz is extremely helpful and has a refreshingly no Bullsh*t approach. If you do take him up on his offer of help, please remember that Jazz and other knowledgeable members of this board impart their considerable knowledge and help at the expense of their own time so please respect that.

Alan

Hi

Thanks all, exactly the info i needed, i was not thinking about these

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The Nema24 motors are 4mH/phase and ideally need 60v but are shipping with a 36v supply and 42v drives . The Nema23s are 3mH/phase and ideally need 55v and ship with 38v supply and 50v drives.

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and

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Now the thing you don't realise is that what's important is the Inductance rating and often the larger 4Nm motors have much higher inductance than the lower 3.1Nm and this means they don't perform has good.

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are both important bits of info, dont you just love proper hobbyist forums:courage:

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Honestly I'm not just being Negative or pulling down

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I like direct answers like that, and am listening and reading.

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Now it seems to me your Rushing and not really knowing what your buying or what Mass you have to move.

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AM not rushing, but am eager, i have the funds in the bank.

The gantry i have planned will be below 40kg, fully loaded, probably closer to 35kg, I know how i will do the gantry, but have not finalised the design, as i need to think about what i might need to strap on to it.

I want to incorporate a turret on the end of the table, and a rotary table or b/c head on the table. and a geared 4th axis

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I'll PM you my number if you want to ring me and I'll try to help.

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I will write up fully on here what am doing and mp you, thanks.

Thanks to all of you for your replies, :thumsup:

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Originally Posted by george uk

AM not rushing, but am eager, i have the funds in the bank.

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Me also from a month/at last/, but as i have still not finished the detailed drawing i am not eager to spend hard earned cash.

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Originally Posted by george uk

The gantry i have planned will be below 40kg, fully loaded, probably closer to 35kg, I know how i will do the gantry, but have not finalised the design, as i need to think about what i might need to strap on to it.

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George,
i wonder how that really will be with the specifications /size/ you stated in the beginning? Are you sure you did not forget something? What type of gantry will that be?

hi

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i wonder how that really will be with the specifications /size/ you stated in the beginning? Are you sure you did not forget something? What type of gantry will that be?

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I can afford to increase weight if needed, I have gone for 20mm supported rails and can beefed up if needed. I want the machine to be able to surface and etch stone, maybe even v-carve it. Accuracy is more important that speed,

The bed is going to be deep, but have fixing on it to bring parts up to Z, and troughs to allow water for laser or plasma cutting. When using stone, the surface if the stone will be close to the Z top ( least angle ), but enough drop in the bed to allow me to get a wide bit of foam on the 4th axis.

My initial gantry design,2* 100mm or 150mm by 40mm steel with drops, Y rails on the top, bit of engineering to get close to an A frame for the z plates. So pivot point is very close to the z bottom ( basically, z bottom minus the bit length )

Working stone will need an extremely rigid gantry and Z+ square supported rails and long bearing blocks, even better-roller type ones. Did you have some other example build/working machine/ in mind when started buying, or its your design?

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Originally Posted by george uk

The gantry i have planned will be below 40kg, fully loaded, probably closer to 35kg, I know how i will do the gantry, but have not finalised the design, as i need to think about what i might need to strap on to it.

I want to incorporate a turret on the end of the table, and a rotary table or b/c head on the table. and a geared 4th axis

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Think you'll find your miles away with weight and to be affective and sturdy enough for cutting stone you'll be least in the 60-70's.
Like you say Speed isn't important but rigidity is massively important for cutting stone or any hard material with accuracy. To surface and cut stone effectively you'll need a slow spinning spindle with high torque, this alone will mean heavy spindle motor which will require a substantial Z axis to attach it too which will be heavy enough.
Mass greatly helps with surface finish so don't be chasing weight.!! . .. Better to be Chubby and Slow than Slim and weak.!

I wasn't going to mention this has seems you'd already ordered them but seen has Silva has already commented I will Confirm what he's saying. The cheap round rails will not take the Water and fine Grit that comes from stone dust, Add to this the weight and high vibrations that cutting hard materials will put thru the frame and they will die in short order.!!

My advise is cancel the order and Buy Proper Liner bearing other wise your wasting your time if your wanting accuracy and to cut hard materials. If you can't Cancel then sell them before using so still new and buy the correct components for the Job.

i haven't order it yet, and i can change if needed, i want to build a multi purpose machine, and i will build a second, task purpose machine, when i have done the first, all in all, i have between 5k - 8k but can up that if i think its worth it.

I will have a number of spindles/heads, and am looking at 600 to 2000rpm options at the mo, i want XYZ basic, solid and strong enough for any material up to approx 200mm, with the top bed having 2 cross bars, splitting it into 3 lower areas with up to an extra 150mm depth, the lowwer areas holding setups for plastics, B/C head, 4th axis, plasma/arc, rotational table .

And i also want nearly a full length of x 4th axis, indexable for carving foam.

I know i will make many mistakes making this macheen, but stripping back and rebuilding replacing, is not a problem, trying out different electronics, is not a problem ( as long as am not waist-full ) . I quite good at pulling projects together, free time permitting.

Hi George,
drawing your ideas and perfecting the design will save you a lot of cash and headaches. There are many small details in a build, which if overlooked will lead to big waste of effort and money.
The parts for a solid topnotch 1000x2000x200 machine will cost approximately 2500-3000.

So, don't do that mistakes you are intending to do, read the builds here, take the best stuff and draw it. Sleep on it and then buy the parts.

something i can not understand, a why not, in relation to y stability from x axis

why not have rails or fix round bar, on both the top and bottom of the x axis, IE, 2* 125mm box, 2200mm long, why put rails jujst on the top and rely on waight and engineering to get a stable point for Z to fix to.

It would seem an obvoius solution but i see its not used, that means these something am clearly not accounting for. am prity sure i could get them level to each other easly, so what am i not thinking of ?

Hi George
I am a noobe to this as well & had the same thought but after you have done some reading by the guys that know what there doing it is very difficult to get the two faces parallel especially after welding up a frame, there is apparently considerable clearance on the round rail/bearing setup but the profile rail i believe is manufactured to a tighter tolerance and is a lot more ridgid, if you have a good mooch through the build logs it will all become clear,and someone will probably provide a better insight than i can.
Regards
Mike

Because that's not the problem. The problem is overhang. Z to Y rigidity+Y twist and bend.

Hi, i considered that, but then thought to get round that, i would m,achine the underside and fit the second rail, after the machine is part built, fit the Y/Z axis and use that to machine the underside of the x Bar. It would be perfectly level to the top.

or
First make a level on the floor, then, Make a level the top of the x, with epoxy, spin the full machine over, level the bottom with epoxy.

Although, i would be more confident in option 1. because as long as your top surface is accurate, so will your bottom rail.

If i can do it this way, i can design a substantially better Y/Z Lighter and stronger. I know i will fubar bearings faster, but it would be an asceptable costs

With long braces on the guides, you would be able to minimise any undulation anyhow, there has got to be something else wrong, just can not see what at the moment.

Any suggestions anyone ?

George, if you don't have something like Sketchup then download it and let us see some drawings, it's far easier than trying to explain it.

*** sorry double posty ***

i will whip up the gantry and x in scetch up and post it later. i prefer to do initial engineerings and calcs in pencil and paper, Think of it as 2 C clamps per x rail, spaced at maybe 200mm

reading this will answer your questions about the forces in play. what you suggest will not work , as you have to decrease moment B and the best way to do it is to increase distance D4.

Attachment 11037

Hi

Wont be a problem as it will have equaL up forces from the guide underneath

in that drawing, my x would be were moment A is, and were the two yellow arrows are ( d3 ) would be the top and bottom connection to the X Rails.

The Y gantry, will be between the 2 x rails ( above and below ) , putting its COG were moment/force A is. I think i will only need the tool going below the gantry, not the spindle, the aim was always to get the bottom point of the spindle finnishing at the y gantry and bringing any material up to it

At the bottom of that drawing is Force D and Force C, these are are right angles to the rails.
With your proposal these forces would be along the rails, parallel to them and pointing in opposite directions

Eddy - yes exactly, and if i increase the distance of the gap on the bottom rail bearings, that should change the force angle a bit. ( cutting force ).

Also, the rails can run on the top of x, and the side of x, if its to hard to get the bottom level to the top. The intention being, the second rail would absorb some of the stress, and the ammount of extra stress relief should be proportional to the allowable gantry weight reduction.

If it will work this way, i can loose loads of weight from the gantry but maintain its rigidity. I still think there must be something am not seeing,

Yes, yes, they will change direction/the forces. But... on a typical router the bearings that move the gantry are spaced 260-300mm/including, if rectangular supported/. On a heavy duty, like my current build for example, they will be spaced 400mm and above. So you have to space them obviously. What you are not taking into account is the overall height of that and the gantry and what i am speaking of is RESONANCE. It will resonate like crazy cause the forces of the tool and the assembly will be in paralel lines. Something like this resonator , where one fork will be the tool and its plate and the other the gantry assembly
Attachment 11038

there are some other forces which you don't take into effect- inertia and gravitation. Which are not problem in normal L shape gantry.

Just imagine a tank speeding on its noze vertically, when it has to stop. Tanks are low and long. Thats what best sturdy gantry design is.

While gravity and long L take care of the balance spreading it over the bearing blocks, the non achievable balance will f^^^ck what you propose. Vertical tank on its nose, it doesn't matter that it will be supported in the middle. if not that, then the resonance.

I am music instrument maker and here what will tell you. to lower resonance, you divide a long force arm into short ones and put each of them in different plane, so they will not help each other

I will put it in sketchup, as my current build of typhoo boxes and cartons and kitchen items, looks a bit to heath robinson ( I can write the Math on them, makes it easier to visualise stresses )

Of all the point you mention above, i think resonance is the one i can not design around, but, If the rails art fixed hard, the bearings will take out some. And although my design may increase the occurrence of resonances, it also reduces the requirement of weight of the gantry, therefor, having less effect ( less mass to carry the force of the resonance beyond the barings ), and also lowering the inertia problem

My works table is within the box of the frame ( half way ), the Y ganrty will be the top of the frame, not above. To keep forces and resonance down, my Z does not extend beyond the gantry frame. only the tool.

My z, will be between the two Y walls of the ganrty, fixed to both walls, the gantry, is a box itself, ( 100/150mm deep - 40mm wall width ), giving me the gap in the center to fit the Z gubbins

Unfortunately George I was meaning it was a bad thing that the forces were parallel along the rails unless you have 2 bearings on the top and 2 on the bottom but that would be overkill.
Unless your drawing, when you post it, makes it clearer.

hi eddy, yes i am going for 2 bearings per rail, 4 bearings per X side, and when i ment spacing them out, earlier, its the gap between the bearings per rail, not the rails themselves ( top bottom ) .

I think that overdoing it on the bearings and rails, will allow me to make the gantry lighter, and a stable box, If i can get the gantry lighter, i dont have to worry about inertia , am also thinking that, in might want to be able temporarily add weight to the Gantry for some jobs, like surfacing stone,

I did go down the heavy road at first, and gantry weight, can cause as many problems as it solves, every time i work on the calculations with heavy gantry, am hitting performance limits on bearings, then bar, way before the machine design going to hit any problems. Then when you look at the costs of baeringfs an rails that will perform ok with the weight, ooooaaaarrr , then, when your bearings and rail can take it, your machine may need supporting. chicken and egg game.

whereas, the more rigid the Y, the less weight it needs to be stable

George,
To avoid chicken egg problem, why not start from the Z. Usually the weakest spot on any machine. THEN this will command the gantry design. Or you have it clear there?

George, I forgot you were cutting stone so maybe 4 bearings per side is not overkill, my mind is currently filled with routers for wood :hopelessness: Will wait for drawing.

Hi

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Originally Posted by silyavski

To avoid chicken egg problem, why not start from the Z. Usually the weakest spot on any machine. THEN this will command the gantry design. Or you have it clear there?

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i started with the plan that the z should be able to handle different spindles+additions, without differing what forces it can handle in both +-xy. most of the moving gantry designs, like the one you linked to, favour one direction down X, and rely on weight of the garntry to offset the stability looses you get by having to mount the spindle forword of the Y, on the drawing you link to, every mm forword the z mech is away from Y, the force you can apply at the bit tip drops substantialy, and would be different X+ than X-.

so, the problem/limit for z, when considering deflections , is all in the Y, when you factor in a 4th axis, again the differing forces between X+ and X-, start loosing accuracy , the longer the jobs running, the worse it gets, the bigger the job is down the x axis, the faster this will happen. .

but, if you have 2 of them Y axis you linked to, facing each other, and the Z in the center, Zs force is equal on X+- and Y+-. the forces Y can take, could be ajusted by spacing th 2 bearings per rail further apart

then, Z drop, is the next place you start looking at, will try and get it in sckechup tomorrow, failing that, i will take a photo of my drawings and post that:moon:

Hi

am trying to nail down the interface card i will use, has anyone used any of the following, ( listed in preference )

6 axis 250KHz USB CNC card, MACH3 plugin, auto zero, auto tool setting, API | eBay

Martzis USB HID Interface (MUHI) Card Board For Linux EMC and Mach 3 PC Via BUS | eBay

5Axis Upgraded CNC Breakout Board Interface Set +Keypad +Display, Manual Control | eBay

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Originally Posted by george uk

Hi

am trying to nail down the interface card i will use, has anyone used any of the following, ( listed in preference )

6 axis 250KHz USB CNC card, MACH3 plugin, auto zero, auto tool setting, API | eBay

Martzis USB HID Interface (MUHI) Card Board For Linux EMC and Mach 3 PC Via BUS | eBay

5Axis Upgraded CNC Breakout Board Interface Set +Keypad +Display, Manual Control | eBay

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Hi George,
i don't know from where you dig out that boards, as i am also at this point but see them for first time.

The first one has its outputs 3v, so you have to check out if compatible with the drivers you intend to use
The second one seems I/0 board only, unable to generate train pulse for motors if i am not mistaken
The third one...no, seems some problematic chinese board

It seems money is an issue, then take a look at :
-http://www.planet-cnc.com usb boards with proprietary software instead Mach3, if you still don't own it
-if you want to go Linux, look at the Mesa FPGA boards, search the Linux forum
-CNCdrive - motion controls

Of course depends how many axis you will like to drive,

Then comes the Ethernet smooth stepper + BOB / PMDX126/ or a CSMIO 4 axis board/ or the expensive 6 axis, which in fact has all that one should look for in a board altogether/

Another possible solution i am looking at now is the KFLOP, which for the moment seems to be my choice, money wise for what it offers

Pokeys is also a good money wise .

Hi

Moneys not a problem, but am bulding 2, test one first, then production one, so its ok if i make the odd mistake. If i find a board that does everything i want, and someone else has used it, i will buy it.

am looking at the solutions you pointed to, and this looks good
http://www.planet-cnc.com/img/controllerMk2_800.jpg

More axis the better, if possible, i would like to stick to Mach3/4 and Linuxcnc, just becuase of the learning curve and macros. I will read up on that one this weekend.

and as you guessed, i didnt read option 2 before i posted,

Another option i am considering which looks very promising is the Centipede KSI Labs, LLC .

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Originally Posted by silyavski

Another option i am considering which looks very promising is the Centipede KSI Labs, LLC .

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It's a very nice bit of kit but be careful because I think the developer has thrown the teddy out the pram with Artsoft because he doesn't like the direction they are taking with Mach4.?

Regards the Kflop and Galia etc then unless your intending on using Servo's with high count encoders then your wasting your money has other than quality they offer no more advantage than the ESS or other Sub £200 cards for steppers.
If your using steppers and don't need slaved Axis then the Csmio-IP-M is by far the best I've ever used and use's industry standard 24V differential signals. there's No Bob's needed and very high quality units in a neat package.

If I needed higher pulse rates for servo's then I wouldn't hesitate to buy the higher priced Csmio-Ip-S which will give many of the other much more expensive high end motion controllers a good run for there money.

The Kflop is a nice bit of kit but it's still using USB and Ethernet is so much better and noise immune compared to USB. I've never been a fan of USB for Bob's etc and while I didn't have too much trouble with using the USB version of the SS I did get some troubles. With Ethernet I've not had any issues with noise at all other than a Dodgy card and can run machine from in the house with a laptop sat on my knee if I like using the network.!! . . . . I don't but I could.!!

i need 5 or 6 axis minimum , am fairly sure i will need to slave a 2nd x at least, I need to stick to bobs that can run mach3/4 and or emc, just because of the support you can get if you get stuck. I need at least spindle control and 2* encoder reading capability's from the electronics. As well as spindle on the y ganrty, i want to build in a turret into the machine frame, and have a sepotate 4th axis, and seporate b/c head. i could do it all with 5 axis, just mean swapping the leads around when i want to set the machine up different,

i had guessed through reading the other threads, that a smooth stepper is a good idea, and you have just confirmed that, am looking at the other cards mentioned on here, am going with steppers not servoes

Am up for any recomendations, ?

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and can run machine from in the house with a laptop sat on my knee if I like using the network.!! . . . . I don't but I could.!!

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Ha ha, not without a really really long estop cable.

Tell you what though, you have just got me thinking, i wander how secure the cards are on a network and how they would react to being probed,

Sorry, don't want to hijack the thread, but here is what i think.

I agree with all that Dean said. But the reason i am still digging for BOBs is axis count and money i would pay for what i would get. Similar to you i will start with 4 motors. Then i want a minimum 1 axis for rotary table, possibly 2. So -6 axis until now. Later i am thinking of separate axis maybe for plasma and may be one more for a device, that pushes MDF sheet while routing and lifts / i saw this somewhwre on internet.
I agree that all can be done with 6 axis and some thinking it out. But also i am living in rented house and in foreign country, so may be one day if i have to change country will be best to sell the machine, so axis count could be better

OK. After continuous digging and analyzing if multi axis tralalala is desired , here are my personal conclusions:

1. No usb boards. They will be obsolete in an year or two. PCI-maybe. Ethernet-best.


2. only 3 boards/ combinations/ for me are worth the money, which support 6 or more axis:

-ESS +PMDX126+PMDX-107 - quite cheaper than the CSMIO, 500Mhz step frequency, mach3, 180$+40$ shipping + 174$ +$57.00 +~40$ shipping = ~410 euro +eventual tax
-CSMIO- 5-24v differential I/O, 6 axis, mach3, 549eur+23% vat= 675 euro +??shipping= ~700euro , so, very nice but quite expensive in fact

-Mesa 7i80+7i76 or 5i25+7i76 . More and more seems Linux is the way. First combo is 119$+150$ +~ 40$ shipping=~250euro , second combo is 200$+~40$shipping =~180 euro.
Basically the first combo is similar to the CSMIO with ethernet, 5v-32V, differential I/0, etc + the added benefit of aditional 5 axis for only 100$ more+ this baby has 4 slots, so 20 axis or aditional things can be put there
The second combo is PCI and again axis can be added later.
And not to speak of the drives and other boards that Mesa have and can be seamlessly integrated for cheap.

The other boards from the previous posts i ignored , due to USB, due to limited support, price per what they offer, lack of differential 24v I/O

I wonder why nobody wrote a serious plugin for the Mesas and Mach3. This is f+==g crazy. Furthermore they have a new board still not supported in Linux -7i76E which is Ethernet 5 axis for 199$ that can be further expanded.

What i will do is start to play with Linux to see if i am up to the task and save some money.

PS. If i knew just before a week what i know now, i would have bought the Galil 4080 for 540eur at ebay just on 31. December. But somebody knew this so he bought all 3 of them. Bloody ignorance of mine.