Which vacuum cleaner (Karcher MV2?)

I'm on the lookout for a vacuum cleaner to connect to my CNC 6040.
I'm planning on making a little bracket to connect it the splindle.. with some sort of clear plastic as a dust guard. (tbd!)


Although occasionaly it'll be wood I use it for, it's mostly going to be aluminium or PCB material..


At the moment I've not decided on the details for the attaching mechanism.. I'm stuck on which actual vacuum to use.. Would something like the Karcher MV2 be a good machine?
(It seems to have good reviews.. good price.. small so will fit under the table I'm planning to build..)


https://www.kaercher.com/uk/home-gar...-16297630.html


I'm also planning on using a Dust commander on top of a 10L airtight container..


Am I way off track or could this plan work?

I think there's a chance your container may collapse, I'd go for something cylindrical, possibly with internal bracing,

- Nick

Then only problem was I was sort of restricted in terms of height space. 18cm was max really. However, I'm going to raise the total height of the table by another 10cm so with 28cm I should be able to find something more suitable. Thanks for the tip.

EDIT: I could go with this 15 litre bucket perhaps (with internal bracing)

I know you have space limitations, but you could get one of those ash filter metal canisters with a clip on lid. I bought one for around a tenner from CPC. ALDI do them every so often. There was a thread about it a couple of years ago - search the forum for 'Ash can filter'. The cyclone I made was not very good and the one on Amazon you point to may be what I should be using.

I am wary of using vacuum cleaners as dust extractors as the motors are not designed for long periods of continuous operation, besides the buggers are noisy.

I am unfortunate in that I am allergic to domestic vacuum cleaners and cannot use them. I also have to keep out of the way when my wife is vacuuming. The condition is getting worse and is extending to most forms of household cleaning tasks. :smug:

Cheers,

Rob

Thanks for the tip.. I'm currently reading it now..
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6108-...ust-filter-%29


Is the ash can filter to be used with the dust commander too? Is it for giving another layer of filtering? I'll have a hunt around for some under 28cm tall...
EDIT: Possibly this 14l 23cmx23cm

I've been through a few vacuum cleaners over the years. Started with a cheap (£30) little thing that soon died.

Then bought a bin style one for around £100. But this was very noisy (brushed motor) and whined. Eventually this died as well.Something like this one:
http://www.charnwood.net/shop/produc...ractor-1?cid=8

Been using a Henry for a while now and it has been great. VERY quiet (no whine!), plenty of suction, easy change bag, small and mobile. Runs for ages without getting warm (possibly because they are designed for commercial use?).
Bought mine at a local supermarket, but here is a random link to show you what it looks like this:
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/home-ap...151025215151:s
Would recommend it.

Adding an intermediate collector (dust commander etc) as you mention is also worth thinking about.

I was just about to post if something like your second link would be more like what I'd need Draper 10923 but the reviews state, as you have, that they're extremely noisy.
So a Henry is the way to go? Do you keep it on your cnc machine for hours at a time? The one you linked is a 580W whereas the noisy one linked is double that. Is that not an issue in reality?

EDIT: Ah there's also a Henry with 2 switchable speeds.. 1200W & 600W. Is that the one you use and recommend?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d4cnc

Thanks for the tip.. I'm currently reading it now..
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6108-...ust-filter-%29


Is the ash can filter to be used with the dust commander too? Is it for giving another layer of filtering? I'll have a hunt around for some under 28cm tall...
EDIT: Possibly this 14l 23cmx23cm

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It was this one http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d019...in_merch=true& but they are all generic Chinese.


The idea I had was to put a cyclone in the top of the ash can, it didn't really work as the dust did not settle enough and a lot went through to the main vac. I took all the gubbins out of the can i.e. the HEPA filter.

I still have the can and I will probably marry it up with a dust commander. My workshop has a Bosch Collecto vac, which is battered and about 20 years old, but refuses to die, but my tools are so deep in sawdust, it is like a bran tub trying to find anything.

Cheers,

Rob

Ah yes, if I had more height available that'd work great to have the dust commander on top..

I've found mixed posts on Henrys.. though one post in particular seems to be exactly what I had in mind.. (even hiding them under a table!)
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7981-...3045#post63045

That seems perfect for my needs.. and as I'm mostly aluminium, it'd work too for that would you say?

I have this one:
http://www.tesco.com/direct/earlex-w...r/204-6450.prd

Not sure who sells them now but I got is for around £55 from Tesco.

You can get a combination filter from tool station. It does not have large capacity and can be loud but works very well for the price.

Awesome. Choices choices choices..
the Earlex seems to have great reviews and also some that say they work great for CNC type work..
And cheaper than the Henry I saw.. although the Henry is smaller which is better for me...
Perhaps I'll toss a coin..!

I can't seem to find the Earlex anywhere, so think I'll go with the Henry. Not even sold on their own website..


One thought I've had though is I'll probably be using liquid lubricant for cutting aluminium.. is that going to affect the Henry? Or will the dust commander cyclone take care of that and no liquid will get in to the Henry?

You need a wet & dry vacuum then. There is a Henry type that is industrial.

If you want wet dry then you'll need George not Henry.

I sell George and Henry machines to Motor trade for valeting. They run all day none stop and they are tuff little buggers has well getting crushed by numpty valetors with vehicles all the time and still carry on working.
Plus they have good spares Backup and you can buy just about any part for Nuematic machines. They will last years if treated nicely even when running for extended periods.

If you are cutting wet aluminium, why do you need dust extraction ? Surely some shielding round the cutter and a drip tray would be enough. I don't think wet ali shavings would be best for a cyclone either.

I have the feeling that Earlex have stopped production. There may be the odd stockist that wants to get rid of them, but they seem to be obsolete.

Ah yes the George looks good although a fair bit dearer.. How much liquid do you think will make it to the hoover do you think? I' was thinking more of little bursts of lubricant rather than fully flowing or water...


The reason I want dust extraction is to collect at the source as I'm not going to be working in the biggest space so can't have shards everywhere..


My plan was to attach a suction hose and clear flexible plastic skirt around the cutter so nothing escapes out and is collected at the source.. Then attach perspex sheets around the machine to stop anything else making a mess..


This should work for my wood projects etc.. but I don't think it'll be sufficient for cutting aluminium. So I was thinking of attaching another hose to the hood so that it can blow air to release swarfs or some liquid for lubrication.. not 100% sure yet..

Does that sound plausable? Or am I on the wrong track? Will the dust cyclone not like metal shards?

I bought one of these recently
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Saving-Mis...item4198a99ef0

I have yet to try it out on a machine, but it sprays water quite well. I thought it was worth a punt for a fiver. My only concern is that there may be a lot of mist droplets floating in the workshop air. Water isn't so bad (for my lungs) as sudsoil mist, but unless you ventilate the shop properly I would expect rust on any exposed metal. I seem to remember a discussion about (low fog) misters.

If you are using a dust commander then droplets of coolant are likely to be separated by centrifugal action, but a more dedicated device such as a knock-out drum, where there is enough space to allow gravity to separate the drops in a vessel large enough to slow the airflow, would be better.

For cutting wood or MDF then the dust commander would be better, but I can see that the cyclone effect would be easily buggered up by wet oily deposits in the cone, when the dust sticks to it.

To me it really looks like you need two separate systems for ali and wood, I don't believe you could make one that would do both properly.

Cheers,

Rob

Ah yes I was eyeing up one of those too.. I saw someone mentioned using it with a pump like this..


Do you use something similar?


Is it possible that I might not need lubricant? Would blasting air do what I need perhaps?


To give an idea of what size aluminium.. it's going to be 1.5mm to 3mm I'll be working with. Probably shy away from 1050 & try something like 5251 grade..


Then generally it's going to be cutting things like panels for enclosures.. so holes/ outside cut out.. maybe the odd inside cutout..


So any way I can get away without lubricating do you think? Maybe by using only TiAIN coated bits? That way I could keep the same setup for any wood based stuff..


Or is there a different kind of lubricant that could work in this case perhaps?

I use these bits for ali http://www.sorotec.de/shop/Cutting-T...s/2-Flute-ALU/ (if the page comes up in german there is an option to change to english). They are open geometry to allow chips to clear. You can probably get them direct from China, but I haven't particularly looked.

On my small machine (which I must get working again) I have a larger version, 70W, of that pump* and it clears the cutting area OK, but I also use an air blow gun on a LIDL airbrush compressor. I just use WD40 to help cutting.

*3 years ago, I paid £35 for it from an eBay shop, called something like PondLife and you can still get them around that price It is the Hailea ACO388D.

I also have a smaller air pump but I don't know the wattage, I will try it with the mister nozzle and see if it is powerful enough (I suspect not). It was not good enough for chip clearing.

I just connect the vac up directly for ali as there is so little WD used that it doesn't matter.

BTW I just have a Wickes vac http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Wet+D...lower/p/215735 and I have taken the handle and the castors off, so it fitted under my bench.

This ebayer has lots of those pumps at all different ranges of power..
Would you feel the 70W is adequate or would you recommend a bump up to a higher power pump? Is the Lidl one a 300W one? Like this one? Would you recommend that over the pond type?


If I can't get a George vac for a good price then I think I'll go for that Wickes one.. they have stock in my local store..

When you say you use WD40, are you applying it manually? Often? I'm planning to semi enclose the machine with a plastic dust/mess guard.. but applying at the beginning I can do easily enough. Doing some research now and the idea of dry machining aluminium seems to be a workable option for some.. (obviously whether I can make it work in my case is another story, but perhaps it wasn't so outrageous as I thought when I speculated...)

I've been using one of those Wickes vacuums for about 3 years now, as a hand-held dust extractor on the router and general shop clean-up machine (including aluminium swarf off the milling machine and all). Gets a fair bit of abuse, sometimes a few hours running continuously, and just gets on with it. The internal filter (I fitted the wet&dry one which is an extra) does get clogged with MDF dust fairly easily but it cleans reasonably well by holding it over the dustbin and tapping. I didn't really expect it to last as long as it has.

First of all I do not think that these pond pumps will have enough oomph to run a mister. They only produce a couple of psi. I will try it out later today, but I would not recommend them for anything but delivering a gentle stream of air for a long time.

That is the LIDL compressor, but you may find it soon in LIDL at that price and with a warranty. It has a useful accessory kit with it, which includes a blower gun, but I wouldn't run it continually (it has a pressure switch to cut it out when not in use).

Yes I squirt the wd40 from the can by hand.

I notice you are another bugger that can't sleep !

Cheers,

Rob

I have tested the mister with the pond pump and the airbrush compressor and neither have enough guts to pull the liquid up the feed tube.

Disappointing !

Ah a fellow night owl indeed. Always been that way.. so I've always worked nights pretty much..


So I'd need to step up the compressor you think? Those previously mentioned won't clear well enough?


How about something like this... Tyre inflator


Or are we fighting a losing battle by thinking tankless?


PS. I can get a George vac for £90 if willing to take it on a 2hour train ride home with me.. However with the good feedback on the Wickes vac, I may go that route now.. Can't work out if the George is worth the extra £50 & nightmare journey...

I can't advise you on that compressor. My current workshop compressor is from LIDL and ALDI have just done a better one, but £169 compared with LIDL's £90. These sort of compressors are noisy though. I wouldn't want you to spend your money on something not up to the job. Both LIDL and ALDI Customer Services are pretty good about finding a store that still has stock, though it was a while back. If you are not in a hurry they will be back in stock in a few months.

Your Lidl one is this one perhaps? My main issue I have with larger compressors is the space.. I'm trying to fit most things under the table I'm going to build for it..
Here's a quick little mock up I did using this air compressor but still having trouble fitting everything.
Attachment 16388
Wickes doesn't have dimensions on their site.. so not sure on what size it is so have the original Henry in there still..

There is a work bench next to this with space underneath (up to 190mm height) which I'm planning to put the PC under.. and if there was a compressor quite flat then it could also go under there, but they don't appear to come in the form factor that could fit under..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cropwell

I have tested the mister with the pond pump and the airbrush compressor and neither have enough guts to pull the liquid up the feed tube.

Disappointing !

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What about using the splitter manifold and plumbing a pipe into the oil/coolant container to create positive pressure to force the coolant through the pipe, that may work? if you could give it a try t will save me a few quid as that is what I was planning.
Cheers, Charlie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CharlieRam

What about using the splitter manifold and plumbing a pipe into the oil/coolant container to create positive pressure to force the coolant through the pipe, that may work? if you could give it a try t will save me a few quid as that is what I was planning.
Cheers, Charlie

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I'll give it a try, but if I have to get some plumbing bits, I won't have time this week - don't hold your breath on this.

CharlieRam in Derby - who'd a thunk it :encouragement:

Cheers, there's no rush as I'm still welding my frame but if it works it could be of benefit to a lot of us. Good time to be a Ram y'know ;-)

QUOTE[I was just about to post if something like your second link would be more like what I'd need Draper 10923 but the reviews state, as you have, that they're extremely noisy.
So a Henry is the way to go? Do you keep it on your cnc machine for hours at a time? The one you linked is a 580W whereas the noisy one linked is double that. Is that not an issue in reality?

EDIT: Ah there's also a Henry with 2 switchable speeds.. 1200W & 600W. Is that the one you use and recommend?]

OK, managed to check the spec of my Henry and it is 580W non-switchable. But suction is not a problem. Be careful of just looking at wattage to determine how well it might work as this is just electrical input - I do know that the motor type is different to the cheap can type, and it certainly is much quieter.

I have run it for extended periods (at least an hour) following the cutter around, and didn't notice heat etc. but now that my dust shoe is finished and working I use a proper extractor. I then use the Henry to generally tidy up. Must post a video / pics on that when I have a moment.

I haven't used the 1200/600 version so can't comment but I'd be fine recommending the 580W version. When I was looking at all this ages ago there was some ruling coming in about maximum power allowed in future vacuum cleaner models (to save energy) so this could be something to do with the 580W version - but please check this before deciding.

I wonder also if I can't improve the chip removal a lot, by using 2 nozzles blowing air. Therefore I could get away with a less powerful air pump? That coupled with the dust hood and vacuum sucking air.. do you think this setup could give a good enough chip removal on aluminium?


What I'm not understanding is the power of the pump I'll need and if I need a tank system or not. And how big a tank. Is it a case of trial & error or are there some rules of thumb/formulas I can plan in advance?
I can just about fit everything in if I use the Wickes vac (assuming it has the same dimesnions as its dearer model. and the 6l tank shown above..


(the two nozzle system I see working well here..


PS. the hood system I'm thinking or this one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by routercnc

QUOTE[ When I was looking at all this ages ago there was some ruling coming in about maximum power allowed in future vacuum cleaner models (to save energy) so this could be something to do with the 580W version - but please check this before deciding.

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The EU ruling that came into effect in August 2014 limited the power to 1600W. There is a proposal to limit noise output to 80db by 2017. That would really f**k up a lot of manufacturers !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d4cnc

I can just about fit everything in if I use the Wickes vac (assuming it has the same dimesnions as its dearer model. and the 6l tank shown above..

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The Wickes 1250W vac sits in a 32x32cm square 43cm high if you do not have the castors and handle fitted.

Great thanks for measuring that for me. 32cm x 32cm could work. It all just about fits in the space I have alongside this 24 litre air compressor.

I think I may go with this setup then. I don't think I can really get anything bigger..

I believe that 24l one is similar to your lidl one? Does it perform well enough to remove chips do you think? How long does it work for when on constantly?

JTF is cheap WTF ! <£50. That compressor should blast the chips right out of the frying pan ! I am never happy about running that type of compressor continuously. Maybe if you cut the airflow down enough to remove the swarf, but keep it as low as possible, so the compressor isn't working flat out, could work OK without burning out the motor.

My little (A4) machine is a lot less industrial, the ACO388D pump blows directly on the work from as little distance as possible as I have a nozzle fixed to the spindle mount. The air feed tube is 8mm i.d. smooth walled to keep the air flow resistance down. It keeps the chips off the cutter and I use the blower gun on the airbrush compressor to blast it occaisionally.
Attachment 16391

I plan to use a solenoid valve to pulse air when I do the steel welded machine.

Haha, cheap to the point of .. 'where's the catch'.
Apparently it's very much a 'buy cheap rubbish from China and sell in a warehouse' type set up there.. so not sure I'd trust it to perform great.. but it should give me a good idea of what I need when I buy its replacement unit! - worst case scenario. Or best case scenario, it works great and for a long time!


I guess if it fails before 6 months, I can always get a refund, assuming I'm not misusing it.


Yes your system with hose seems exactly what I want to do. As you say, keeping it as close to the cutter I think is the key. Maybe even two if I have space..


Awesome. So that's a plan then! I've been stalling on building the table until I had a plan of sorts.. so will now start it I think. Off to the timber yard...!

One thing before buying that air compressor.. I assume it's an oil filled one.. which by all accounts are less noisy and run better. However require more maintenance. However I can't seem to find any info on what maintenance it will require..


Could any one shed any light on this for me? I've never actually used an air compressor before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cropwell

I use these bits for ali http://www.sorotec.de/shop/Cutting-T...s/2-Flute-ALU/ (if the page comes up in german there is an option to change to english). They are open geometry to allow chips to clear. You can probably get them direct from China, but I haven't particularly looked.

On my small machine (which I must get working again) I have a larger version, 70W, of that pump* and it clears the cutting area OK, but I also use an air blow gun on a LIDL airbrush compressor. I just use WD40 to help cutting.

*3 years ago, I paid £35 for it from an eBay shop, called something like PondLife and you can still get them around that price It is the Hailea ACO388D.

I also have a smaller air pump but I don't know the wattage, I will try it with the mister nozzle and see if it is powerful enough (I suspect not). It was not good enough for chip clearing.

I just connect the vac up directly for ali as there is so little WD used that it doesn't matter.

BTW I just have a Wickes vac http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Wet+D...lower/p/215735 and I have taken the handle and the castors off, so it fitted under my bench.

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For my first post I have to agree 100% about the Wickes vacuum !! I have one in the garage and am amazed at how good it sucks up chips, hell, it will even suck up spanners:05.18-flustered:

I'm using a wet n dry vac from wickes works realy well and was only 40 quid , I 3d printed a dust boot I found on thingiverse it works great, first thing I've made for my 6040

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:327156

This one fits for purpose
https://www.averncleaningsupplies.co...vacuum-cleaner