Irregular Spindle Speed

Hello everyone I really hope somebody can help us.

We Have a Chinese built CNC that was originally equipped with an ER32 7.5 kw, 10.2 HP Colombo Spindle that we needed to send for servicing as we had problems with the threads on the collet.
Due to the quick turnaround that we needed the Chinese company sent us a Chinese spindle until they send us an other Colombo as the machine originally came with a spare spindle.
The spindle they sent us is a HQD 6.0 Kw ER32 spindle. Please see attached pictures.
After installing the new spindle we can't get it to work on a constant speed. Please see attached video.
Originally we have been controlling the spindle straight from Mach3 with no problems whatsoever but since installing the new one Mach 3 is acting funny as well throwing a soft limit error shortly after a program start.
We have been through a lot of settings with the Chinese support and us trying different settings but with no luck so far
Any questions and answers are welcome as we would really like to have this machine up end running.

Thanks in advance

BoX

Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZopW...ature=youtu.be


Attachment 18795

Attachment 18796

First have wired the spindle in Delta not Star.? The VFD is 380V so the Spindle needs to be wired Star.
Edit: Strike that because looking again the other pic looks like from spindle not VFD.

So are you using 1ph or 3ph input.? If 1ph then wire in Delta if 3ph then wire Star.

Second measure the voltage coming for the speed control to VFD. Does it Pulse.? Will be either 0-5v or 0-10v depending on VFD/Speed controller.
To check the VFD get power source between 1-10v (if 0-10v speed control) ie 9V battery and swap for wires coming from speed control. If you have stable speed then it's the speed control that's causing the pulsing.

The Strange Mach3 happenings will be coinsidence because nothing related to the spindle can or will affect Softlimits. Only thing that could possibly be throwing unexplained errors is electrical noise and this would be on the hardwired limits not softlimits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

First have wired the spindle in Delta not Star.? The VFD is 380V so the Spindle needs to be wired Star.
Edit: Strike that because looking again the other pic looks like from spindle not VFD.

So are you using 1ph or 3ph input.? If 1ph then wire in Delta if 3ph then wire Star.

Second measure the voltage coming for the speed control to VFD. Does it Pulse.? Will be either 0-5v or 0-10v depending on VFD/Speed controller.
To check the VFD get power source between 1-10v (if 0-10v speed control) ie 9V battery and swap for wires coming from speed control. If you have stable speed then it's the speed control that's causing the pulsing.

The Strange Mach3 happenings will be coinsidence because nothing related to the spindle can or will affect Softlimits. Only thing that could possibly be throwing unexplained errors is electrical noise and this would be on the hardwired limits not softlimits.

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Hi Jazz and thanks for your help.

You are dealing with some wiring dummies here so please excuse me for asking some dummy questions.
I have found a diagram depicting the star and delta wiring methods and will study it although do you think that the new spindle needs a new kind of wiring as we thought is generally the same as the old one.

Also when you say measure the speed control voltage do you mean it on the wires My red arrow is pointing to in the attached image?

Also if we don't get far in resolving this problem would you be able to visit us and give us a hand in sorting this problem. We are based in Vauxhall London.

Thanks,

BoX

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Attachment 18798

The spindle is dual voltage so can be run 220v or 380V. This is determined by how you connect the wire terminals on the spindle NOT the VFD.
So if your Spindle was lasted used on 380v Three phase supply then it will be wired in Star config. If used on 220V single or three phase supply it will wired Delta.
If your Supply is 220V Single phase then you need spindle config to be Delta.

Regards the wires then I cannot tell you from that picture. On the VFD they will be marked so thing like ACM & V1 or Gnd & V1 or Gnd & A1 depending on type of speed controller.
If your not sure what doing then suggest you don't go poking around because some speed controllers can be at Mains potential and very dangerous.
Sorry I'm too far away to help.

If you send better pics of spindle inside the cover I can probably tell you if Star or Delta. Like wise if send better pics of VFD or The board I can tell you which wires to measure from but if your not confident with electrickery then still suggest you seek advise or help from someone who is.

Ok just looked at your pictures again and starting to make sense now what the problem is.!
If the second Picture is the replacement then won't work. The new spindle is not dual voltage so can't work on single phase 220v. Will only work on 3 phase 380V supply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

The spindle is dual voltage so can be run 220v or 380V. This is determined by how you connect the wire terminals on the spindle NOT the VFD.
So if your Spindle was lasted used on 380v Three phase supply then it will be wired in Star config. If used on 220V single or three phase supply it will wired Delta.
If your Supply is 220V Single phase then you need spindle config to be Delta.

Regards the wires then I cannot tell you from that picture. On the VFD they will be marked so thing like ACM & V1 or Gnd & V1 or Gnd & A1 depending on type of speed controller.
If your not sure what doing then suggest you don't go poking around because some speed controllers can be at Mains potential and very dangerous.
Sorry I'm too far away to help.

If you send better pics of spindle inside the cover I can probably tell you if Star or Delta. Like wise if send better pics of VFD or The board I can tell you which wires to measure from but if your not confident with electrickery then still suggest you seek advise or help from someone who is.

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Thanks again Jazz,

Will wait for my colleague to come in later and will take some better pictures for you as I think that is the only workable route since you don't fancy a trip to London. We do have confidence and are quite good at taking anything apart though :)
We have already tried contacting all the companies that we could find in the UK but no luck so far as most don't work with mach3 or simply are not interested as the machine was not built by them. On the other hand the Chinese support proves to be quite difficult due to the 8 hours time difference and the even bigger language barrier. Basically we have been trying to sort this problem out with them for over a month now.

Thanks again and will try to post those pictures later.

BoX

Hi There Jazz,

I had to take yesterday off but managed to take some better quality pictures today.

I have attached some and hope they are useful but if you need any specific pictures including screenshots from Mach3 please let me know as it seems will have to sort the problem our self's. All the Chinese support does is trying to push us to install nc studio instead of mach3 saying that the guy who built our machine and had mach3 experience has left their workplace.

Thanks again and have a good evening.

BoX

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Ok well first need to know if your using Single phase 220V supply.?

If so then I'm quite confident that your problem is the new replacement spindle is designed ONLY for 380v.
The VFD while converts Single phase to Three phase it does not convert 220v to 380v.

The columbo Spindle was dual voltage, hence Delta or Star wiring options but the New replacement spindle, looking at the pic you posted doesn't and only works with 380v.

Confirm this and if using 380V then I'll continue and tell you which wires to check.

Just a quicky for Jazz - I know where you're coming from with the plate on the spindle, but googling the part number throws up bugger all info on aliexpress, but it does suggest that it can be wired star or delta, and a 6-pin connector on the spindle brings out each winding separately, and that the coil voltage is 220/380.

OP - Might be worth posting a photo of the electrical connector on the spindle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doddy

Just a quicky for Jazz - I know where you're coming from with the plate on the spindle, but googling the part number throws up bugger all info on aliexpress, but it does suggest that it can be wired star or delta, and a 6-pin connector on the spindle brings out each winding separately, and that the coil voltage is 220/380.

OP - Might be worth posting a photo of the electrical connector on the spindle.

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IME if Spindles or motors can be wired both 220/380v the plate will state it. ie like the Coloumbo does. In this case can only go off what the plate says.
But it wouldn't hurt to have pic of the terminals for clarity.

Also if Ali express shows bugger all info how can it suggest Star -Delta.?

http://www.han-qi.com/products_detai...ductId=91.html

no data sheet so it could be available in both

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Also if Ali express shows bugger all info how can it suggest Star -Delta.?

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Various adverts give nothing like the amount of technical detail that I'd like, however, most, do clearly state the two voltage options, and a close-up of the 6 pin connector.

e.g.

http://www.chinaseniorsupplier.com/M...tificiate.html

They show 2 different PDF. One for the 220v another for 380V which suggests it's not dual voltage which is changable via usual methods. Also there is no Star Delta connection on the connector which also backs this up.

I'm keeping out of this one on the grounds that I have had a drink:beer:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive S

I'm keeping out of this one on the grounds that I have had a drink:beer:

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Never stopped me so go for it.!!. . . . Do your worst. .:very_drunk:

Hello guys and thanks for the input.

We have taken some more images attached below.

Also we have removed the new spindle and re installed the original colombo the CNC came with just to see if we still have this irregular speed issue.

The colombo spindle seems to be spinning fine with just about 3-4 hertz up and down movement on the VFD. But we seem to have a new problem .... when starting a G-code the spindle will spin up to the specified S value in the code, but as soon as the axes start moving the spindle will go to maximum speed. We have reloaded the original XML data into mach3 to have the same settings as when we got the machine but all the same. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

Since the colombo isn't usable until they fix the threads on the chuck will have to try and set up the new Chinese spindle.

Please see the wiring pictures attached. If you need any more specific ones please let me know.

Also this current issue with the colombo highlighted some serious dangers that minor software issues can cause. We had incidents before when an apprentice spun the spindle with a tool not intended for that code and well.... the tool was flying across room in pieces as instead of 5000 RPM it was spinning at 18000 RPM. So if someone could explain us how to control the spindle straight from the VFD instead of going through Mach3 that would be great as a backup option for the future. We have a smaller machine on which we control the spindle from the VFD and although it takes a bit more time it might be safer.

We still don't know if we have a star or delta connection but hopefully the attached pictures shed some light on that.

Again thanks for all the help and have a great weekend.

BoX.



The Plug that supply's the whole system:

Attachment 18829

The Colombo wiring:

Attachment 18830

The new Chinese spindle wiring:

Attachment 18831

Attachment 18832

Photos of the inside wiring:

Attachment 18833

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Ok well the chinese spindle is wired Star(380v) so you need to change it to delta. This will cure your speed problem.
Remove the screws and those gold jumpers can be changed around. Set them like the pic.

Regards the Speed changing when code runs then are you 100% sure the code isn't changing the speed.? Other than that then would need to see the XML to make sure spindle is set correctly.

Regards the VFD Speed then unfortunatly it's one or the other. Yes can make speed adjustable from VFD with quick parameter change but you will lose external control via Mach3.

Attachment 18841

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Ok well the chinese spindle is wired Star(380v) so you need to change it to delta. This will cure your speed problem.
Remove the screws and those gold jumpers can be changed around. Set them like the pic.

Regards the Speed changing when code runs then are you 100% sure the code isn't changing the speed.? Other than that then would need to see the XML to make sure spindle is set correctly.

Regards the VFD Speed then unfortunatly it's one or the other. Yes can make speed adjustable from VFD with quick parameter change but you will lose external control via Mach3.

Attachment 18841

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Thanks Jazz it makes a lot more sense now. Will wire the spindle to delta on Monday and give it a try.
Regarding the speed change I am 100% sure that the speed does not change during the code as we have used an old code also we dont have a tool changer so we keep spindle speeds constant for each individual code.
Regarding the XML File would be glad to share it with you to take a look as we are unsure about its correctness specially when considering the fact that the support doesn't know mach3 and claim that the guy who set up our machine has left the company :) That makes me wonder if there was a lot of thought put into motor tuning.
Will only be able to share the XML data on Monday but thanks for the help.

BoX

Just a thought check to see if the motor is running in the correct rotation when done. If it does not you will have to swap over any of the 3 phases.

Thanks Guys,

Just to make sure although it might be a dummy question, but do we remove the back cover on the chinese spindle to do the re wiring as that does not have an electrical box on the outside. So my guess is that is somewhere under the cooling fan assembly.

Will be uploading the XML data later today.

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HipoPapi

Thanks Guys,

Just to make sure although it might be a dummy question, but do we remove the back cover on the chinese spindle to do the re wiring as that does not have an electrical box on the outside. So my guess is that is somewhere under the cooling fan assembly.

Will be uploading the XML data later today.

Thanks

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Ok well seeing this post made me look at pics again because thought you'd posted pic of inside box but know realise it was Columbo box and I'd seen wrong. So unfortunately I think it's like I orginaly feared and the Spindle is 380V Only unless you can find some connections on it some where. They should be obvious so if not then doubt it can be changed.!!

Thanks Jazz,

Well that is bad news on multiple levels. It shows the sort of support we have, and will have to wait for a new spindle but at least it also shows that however dumb a question it is still worth asking :)

Regarding the Mach3 anomaly I have uploaded the XML file. In short what is happening is the following:

Spindle ( colombo) starts at normal speed but as soon as the axes start moving goes to its maximum speed (18.000). When the program finishes mach3 turns the spindle off normally. So there is communication but something is wrong.

Also here are some shots of the Chinese spindle. If you have any idea of how to rewire it please let us know.

Attachment 18857

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I have uploaded the XML as a txt as that is the only way the site lets me upload it. Please just change the extension to .xml

Thanks again for all the help.

BoX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Ok well the chinese spindle is wired Star(380v) so you need to change it to delta. This will cure your speed problem.
Remove the screws and those gold jumpers can be changed around. Set them like the pic.

Regards the Speed changing when code runs then are you 100% sure the code isn't changing the speed.? Other than that then would need to see the XML to make sure spindle is set correctly.

Regards the VFD Speed then unfortunatly it's one or the other. Yes can make speed adjustable from VFD with quick parameter change but you will lose external control via Mach3.

Attachment 18841

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Just one more thought as I am a bit more confused now. Since you have thought the wiring posted was the Chinese spindle wiring although it was the colombo that makes me think they are both wired 380V so that would mean the speed issue lies some other place. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks
BoX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HipoPapi

Just one more thought as I am a bit more confused now. Since you have thought the wiring posted was the Chinese spindle wiring although it was the colombo that makes me think they are both wired 380V so that would mean the speed issue lies some other place. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks
BoX

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Yes your thinking is correct. This is why I asked you several posts back to check the Supply voltage. If that pic is the columbo wiring then it's wired Star and 380V so your supply must be 3 phase 380V.
In which case the chinese spindle should work and I'm not going to be able to suggest anything more than have done already ie: check wiring etc and test the 0-10v is working correctly.

Thanks Jazz,

That means we are one step closer to resolving this issue.
From the uploaded pictures would you be able to point out the wires I have to check the voltage on?
As mentioned earlier the Colombo also has a slight irregularity of about 10 herts up and down but the Chinese spindle has about 150 to 200 herts. But now that I think about it I remember that when under load with a large tool the Colombo was doing something similar although we never checked the screen on the VFD back then.

Thanks again and have a good night.

BoX


Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

Hello there,

Any thoughts on which wires we have to check for the 5v or 10v constant power also have you managed to take a look at the xml file.

Also has anyone got any experience using NCstudio as the Chinese support thinks that that would fix our problem and if nothing else works out we are willing to give it a go but would be good to know how it compares with Mach3. We are used to mach3 as we have it on the other machine as well and love the flexibility it offers.

Thanks again.

Box

Ok the wires you want to measure are ACM and V1. I suggest you try this at the board with wires removed. Then at the VFD end to verify getting same voltage.

To test Put meter black Probe to ACM and Red to V1 then command a speed of half your MAX spindle speed. It should read 5v or very close.

The spindle is using pulley #4 in Mach which is to 12000rpm this means mach will scale the output 0-10 voltage from this. IE: if you command 6000rpm it outptus 5v and if 12000rpm then 10v but commanding 18000rpm will just get you pulley ratio warning.
So if your spindle MAX rpm is 18000 then setting pulley ratio #4 to 18000 means mach will scale the output so 10v is given at 18000rpm.

I've looked at the spindle setup in Ports&pins and it's turned on but without more details of the Spindle board then can't say if correct or not. Looking at the Spindle Output in Motor tuning I would say it doesn't look like it's setup correctly but like say need to know more about spindle board to be sure.

Testing the 0-10v voltage will give you best clue if it is or not.