Hello, here is my new machine

[A_Camera]

A small cheap CNC cannot be profitable, ever, because the cash/investment grows by pwr2/pwr3 vs machine system total cost.

That's not really true...

...but you need to make something nobody else makes and have a group interest in buying those products. A small, relatively cheap machine can also be profitable if you know what to make and who to sell to and how. My machine is a good example. Self design, self made, pretty small and not very expensive. Already version one was profitable, that's why I upgraded. But... I sell something people are prepared to buy, and I even have to turn down some offers because it is just a hobby.

[hanermo2]

I disagree politely ! THAT is not what I said.

I said you as the seller/maker can get the parts made (very much) cheaper elsewhere, and as such it is not *economically productive*/worthwhile to make them with a small, cheap cnc.

That's not really true...

...but you need to make something nobody else makes and have a group interest in buying those products. A small, relatively cheap machine can also be profitable if you know what to make and who to sell to and how. My machine is a good example. Self design, self made, pretty small and not very expensive. Already version one was profitable, that's why I upgraded. But... I sell something people are prepared to buy, and I even have to turn down some offers because it is just a hobby.

[Desertboy]

At the moment I outsource a cnc contract to another company for a customer I deal with I intend to to take it in house but it's low volume custom parts. It will be very profitable to me if I CNC the parts myself but only because rarely do we make more than 2 of the same item.

My experience has been that setting up costs are high vs production costs so if I was to make 100 of the same item it becomes more profitable to outsource but 10 I should probably do it myself.

Outsourcing has both advantages and disadvantages and not everything is cost, Accuracy, quality of finish, reliability and just sometimes needing to get a rush job done are factors that need to be considered on a job by job basis.

[A_Camera]

At the moment I outsource a cnc contract to another company for a customer I deal with I intend to to take it in house but it's low volume custom parts. It will be very profitable to me if I CNC the parts myself but only because rarely do we make more than 2 of the same item.

My experience has been that setting up costs are high vs production costs so if I was to make 100 of the same item it becomes more profitable to outsource but 10 I should probably do it myself.

Outsourcing has both advantages and disadvantages and not everything is cost, Accuracy, quality of finish, reliability and just sometimes needing to get a rush job done are factors that need to be considered on a job by job basis.

I agree 100% with that reasoning. This is EXACTLY the reason why I am making these small things. Initially I outsourced, but actually only the first ten with an option of of a 100 more, but after the first ten I realized that it is not possible for me to make profit unless I make those parts, or order 1000 every time, which again was not possible because of the fairly low sales volume and because paying for 1000 is actually quite expensive and risky for me. So, after I sold the first ten and tested the market with them I decided that I will make those on my own. This decision was 100% right and because of that, I could even improve, make small changes and so on. That is NOT possible if you outsource, because every time you change something the maker will charge extra (rightfully) for the extra costs concerning machine setup or tooling changes. People who talk about outsourcing as an ultimate solution doesn't have a clue about what that means. Yes, outsourcing is fine in some cases, but would mean disaster in others. Of course, if I knew I will have a constant flow of orders and would sell hundreds every month then it would be different, but then I'd needed to set up a factory because I alone would not be able to assemble, test, pack and ship them out. So sure, outsourcing has advantages, but it is not for everyone and not for low volume production and sales.

[hanermo2]

You think Yoy might have the wrong idea about costs and outsourcing, imho, ime.

What takes 10 hours to make 2 pieces with a small cnc, can be done for 30 mins for 10 pieces with a big machine, at 50€ or so cost for the 10 pieces, at 100€/hr, for the industrial-cnc machinist = jobshop.
Any nr of places can and will make your parts 1-25-10 at a time, really cheap ...

But the skill there in buying your parts cheap is negotiation, cash, understanding *their* business, leveraging *business skills* and *their* industrial manufacturing and *sales/purchasing*, which has nothing at all to do with CNC, machining, et al.

Where you are only ever making 2, or 1, and changing it constantly, is where the private cnc machine shines, especially for low-value items.

Any nr of places will give YOU very low rates for manufacturing stuff in tiny quantities, if and when YOU are a repeat customer with money and a tiny bit of time.
Many places LOVE tiny customers, who will pay up-front, and let their parts be made when the workers/machines are otherwise idle.
Everyone gets 50% off if paying up-front, and accepting 3-5 day turnaround, in general.

My point was about profits and business, not about the technical ability to make stuff on *your* cnc.
Sure You can .. but it is not as profitable, mostly, as outsourcing it.

E.
I spent 3 days making a good ISO30 taper ... one of the hardest things there is.
Because it is a steep taper, one cannot use a bigger boring bar since the small end is really small 17.64 mm, 48.4 mm deep so its a very deep bore - with a 12/16 mm boring bar, chatters like crazy.
For 30€ or so cost for a commercial piece, crazy to do the work.
Took 6 tries for a decent result, had to make a custom boring bar, ballasted anti-vibration version.

But it takes 3-5-10 days to get a cheap commercial one.

RESULT:
For 100€, you can get 10 pieces, vs 10 hours work on your own for 2 pieces.
You need volumetric size in the machine (to make 10+ at once), rigidity, toolchangers, to make the 10 fast.
10 cost == same as 1 or 2.

For jobshops, material costs are usually near/nil for typical hobbiest type workpieces.
No aligning, probing etc. just mill/turn it out, done.
And for a few pieces, no-one needs to make efficient code. etc, just bang it in by eyeball mark 1, running 1-5 mins in the air wont matter at all.
The 10 bits are still done in under 30 minutes, mostly.

Since the pieces are smallish, and the materials are not inconel etc. (google a 18x30" bar cost - more than a car).

I agree 100% with that reasoning. This is EXACTLY the reason why I am making these small things.

Initially I outsourced, but actually only the first ten with an option of of a 100 more, but after the first ten I realized that it is not possible for me to make profit unless I make those parts, or order 1000 every time, which again was not possible because of the fairly low sales volume and because paying for 1000 is actually quite expensive and risky for me. So, after I sold the first ten and tested the market with them I decided that I will make those on my own. This decision was 100% right and because of that, I could even improve, make small changes and so on. That is NOT possible if you outsource, because every time you change something the maker will charge extra (rightfully) for the extra costs concerning machine setup or tooling changes. People who talk about outsourcing as an ultimate solution doesn't have a clue about what that means. Yes, outsourcing is fine in some cases, but would mean disaster in others. Of course, if I knew I will have a constant flow of orders and would sell hundreds every month then it would be different, but then I'd needed to set up a factory because I alone would not be able to assemble, test, pack and ship them out.

So sure, outsourcing has advantages, but it is not for everyone and not for low volume production and sales.

[A_Camera]

hanermo2, my feeling is that you argue for the sake of arguing and don't want to see/understand other opinions/experiences.

Believe it or not, I made my homework pretty well and KNOW what I am talking about and why I am doing things the way I am doing them. End of the story, and end of the discussion from my side.

[ravihotwok]

some good points on this thread, I have already researched my market and demand so it seems very viable as another service to my business, it will also help in mould making as well.

[A_Camera]

I disagree politely ! THAT is not what I said.

I said you as the seller/maker can get the parts made (very much) cheaper elsewhere, and as such it is not *economically productive*/worthwhile to make them with a small, cheap cnc.

I don't think you disagree, but I think I misunderstood what you meant. I meant using a cheap CNC can be profitable. Of course, MAKING a small CNC aimed at selling AND making profit on the CNC is a different thing.

Making (or buying) a small CNC, buying or making parts to make it, and then use that CNC to make profit is indeed possible. Surely, you can't disagree with that. My hobby is entirely financed, with profit, by making these adapters:



Of course, only the bottom part. The top part is bought on eBay because that requires more complicated process and not just a mill. Never the less, something like this is enough to make a hobby profitable, including making or buying a CNC and all the parts necessary. Of course, the price or costs of the CNC must be kept low, otherwise there will be no profit, your 100k€ machine is out of the question, that requires very high volume sales and professional use at least 8h/day for 5 days a week. ...unless you have an even better idea for a product which people are ready to pay MUCH more than $100 a piece.