Fehlmann Picomax 50 CNC conversion/refurb

[Agathon]

Coming along nicely I enjoyed the vid. Re the Nema34 they might run better with a higher voltage that 70v I think you can get 230v drives for them.

Hi Clive, just come in from the workshop after more fun. More vids tomorrow...

Do you think it sounds like they're missing steps or is it a step-generation/processing issue? Difficult to answer without test I suppose. The quill has always made the same noise from time to time. I've was driving it with one of those crappy HY-DIV268 things and when running a repeating cycle of ten up an down movements it always returned to the same place with better than 0.01mm variation - which I was very impressed with.

I think after going to the effort of buying the highly recommended AM882 drivers, in the short term at least, I'd rather replace the motors - they only cost £27 for the pair including delivery so I can afford to replace them!

In the longer term I still favour going all-out for servos. Those Teknic Clearpath things look very impressive. If confidence in Sterling would just improve a little I'd be tempted to order.

[Agathon]

Motor operation and control issues:

[Clive S]

One problem using the PP is that until the pc is powered up the pins can be in any rambled state and they can also chatter as the pc is powering up causing all sorts of unexpected happenings. That is the beauty of a motion controller this behaviour does not happen with Lcnc and a Mesa card.

edit Having said that you might be able to use the charge pump in Mach3 so that the bobs are not enabled until the charge pump signal is seen.

[Agathon]

One problem using the PP is that until the pc is powered up the pins can be in any rambled state and they can also chatter as the pc is powering up causing all sorts of unexpected happenings. That is the beauty of a motion controller this behaviour does not happen with Lcnc and a Mesa card

Mmm.. yes, I understand that, but it's more of an issue with the BOB itself in that they've used the NC rather than the NO side of the relay - can't see the reasoning behind this or a way around it.

BTW I'd love to move over to LCNC, but my impression is that it's for people with an interest in programming and computing rather than just wanting to get on with using a machine. I've looked hard, but I can't find the equivalent of the Mach3 User's Guide. I find that I can't get to a position where I can understand what I need to do to use Mach3 - and I regard myself as being moderately savvy with PCs.

[m_c]

Without seeing the videos (my broadband is currently not working, so am limping along on mobile broadband), if you're using a parallel port, you really need to use a charge pump for safety, regardless of what software you're using. As Clive has already said, parallel port pins can act randomly during loading. If the BOB you are using has no charge pump, the easiest option is just not to power up the machine until the computer is fully loaded.

The Clear tecknic servos do seem good, however you have to remember as they need the step/dir signal directly, it adds in a lot of extra potential for interference and losing/missing steps. If I was to use them, I'd be looking at adding differential signal drivers to avoid potential noise issues.
Plus I think they're more closed loop stepper, than what's more commonly referred to as a servo. Good in the fact they're better for direct driving ballscrews, but does mean top speed is limited.

Performance wise, you're more likely to be better of with some good Nema23 motors, and adding a 2:1 drive ratio. Nema 34 really need high voltage drives to get the best performance from them.

[Agathon]

Without seeing the videos (my broadband is currently not working, so am limping along on mobile broadband), if you're using a parallel port, you really need to use a charge pump for safety, regardless of what software you're using. As Clive has already said, parallel port pins can act randomly during loading. If the BOB you are using has no charge pump, the easiest option is just not to power up the machine until the computer is fully loaded.

The Clear tecknic servos do seem good, however you have to remember as they need the step/dir signal directly, it adds in a lot of extra potential for interference and losing/missing steps. If I was to use them, I'd be looking at adding differential signal drivers to avoid potential noise issues.
Plus I think they're more closed loop stepper, than what's more commonly referred to as a servo. Good in the fact they're better for direct driving ballscrews, but does mean top speed is limited.

Performance wise, you're more likely to be better of with some good Nema23 motors, and adding a 2:1 drive ratio. Nema 34 really need high voltage drives to get the best performance from them.

Thanks for the reply. What's a "charge pump"?

Re Clearpath - they are true servos rather than hybrid servo/steppers. I take your point about interference. I might pose the question to Teknic and see what they say - they've been really helpful so far.

There seem to be as many opinions about drives and motors as there are drives and motors. I did canvass this forum and others quite extensively before buying drives and the consensus seemed to be that Leadshine AM882s at 70v was the way to go. Still, the Z axis is fine, and the X&Y drives can be redeployed. If I do make some change to the X and Y drives it will be to servos - not poncing about with these poxy stepper things any more

[EddyCurrent]

Thanks for the reply. What's a "charge pump"?

if the bob does not see a continuous signal from the controlling PC it shuts down.
Also called a 'watchdog timer'

From my bob manual,

The charge pump uses the 12 kHz signal from the parallel port generated by the
CNC software to operate a logic circuit that gives an active low output. Any
piece of machinery that uses powerful motors can be dangerous if controlled
by a computer that can be in an unknown state while being powered up or in
a software crash condition. Using the charge pump circuit to disable power to
motors is a safety device in that it only operates when the software is running
correctly and under user control. The charge pump circuit is also used to
disable the output signals so even if your stepper boards do not have an
enable pin they will be disabled automatically when the charge pump signal
is not present.

[Clive S]

Thanks for the reply. What's a "charge pump"?

Mach3 generates a 12.5Kc/s pulse onto one of the pins of the PP This is used to enable the bob. When Mach3 starts up. It is used in case there is a software problem or e stop situation the pulse disappears and basically switches the bob off.

Re the drives is is usual for us to have a two to one reduction with a belt drive. I use these AM882 on my mill.
Your mill though is in a league of its own.

[m_c]

Thanks for the reply. What's a "charge pump"?

Re Clearpath - they are true servos rather than hybrid servo/steppers. I take your point about interference. I might pose the question to Teknic and see what they say - they've been really helpful so far.

There seem to be as many opinions about drives and motors as there are drives and motors. I did canvass this forum and others quite extensively before buying drives and the consensus seemed to be that Leadshine AM882s at 70v was the way to go. Still, the Z axis is fine, and the X&Y drives can be redeployed. If I do make some change to the X and Y drives it will be to servos - not poncing about with these poxy stepper things any more

I'd like to get my hands on one to see, but the torque curves look more akin to those of a stepper system, than a servo system. Stepper and brushless motors are very similar, it's just stepper motors are synchronous (which is what gives them the detents), while servos are a/non-synchronous, which means you don't lose power/torque overcoming the detents.

Regarding the Nema 23 v 34 argument. Compare them running similar voltages. You'll generally find Nema 34 graphs are using a high voltage driver, while Nema 23 are done using a relatively low voltage driver.
I've just had a quick look to see if I could find a couple graphs to do a comparison, but the Nema 34 graphs I found were mostly using a 110VAC supply (about 155VDC), while the Nema 23 ones were using 30-40VDC supplies. At those low voltage, torque drop of is very noticeable, and crippling Nema 34s with only 70VDC also makes for a very similar torque drop-off. You need voltage to over come the back EMF at speed. Without that voltage, torque at speed is very limited.