Fehlmann Picomax 50 CNC conversion/refurb

[Agathon]

I'd like to get my hands on one to see, but the torque curves look more akin to those of a stepper system, than a servo system. Stepper and brushless motors are very similar, it's just stepper motors are synchronous (which is what gives them the detents), while servos are a/non-synchronous, which means you don't lose power/torque overcoming the detents.

Regarding the Nema 23 v 34 argument. Compare them running similar voltages. You'll generally find Nema 34 graphs are using a high voltage driver, while Nema 23 are done using a relatively low voltage driver.
I've just had a quick look to see if I could find a couple graphs to do a comparison, but the Nema 34 graphs I found were mostly using a 110VAC supply (about 155VDC), while the Nema 23 ones were using 30-40VDC supplies. At those low voltage, torque drop of is very noticeable, and crippling Nema 34s with only 70VDC also makes for a very similar torque drop-off. You need voltage to over come the back EMF at speed. Without that voltage, torque at speed is very limited.

I have to say all this stepper and servo stuff is new to me. I'm very familiar with squirrel cage motors and vfds, but steppers, and now servos are a very steep learning curve. I know what you mean about the Clearpath graphs, but Teknic have stated that they are servos and not steppers. Their torque curves are certainly much more healthy at speed than any stepper graph I've seen (which admittedly isn't that many). Certainly when you compare the torque/speed graph of the Clearpath 2.04 Nm (rms) (CPM-SDSK-3421S-RLN) servo I was thinking of buying to that of the Astrosyn 4.8 Nm (holding torque), there's no competition. Where the Clearpath has no problem producing its nominal rms torque at 1000rpm the Astrosyn has fallen to something in the region of 0.9 Nm at around 3000 steps/s (900rpm).



Just as an aside, if the Astrosyns were geared 2:1 they'd only be producing 0.4Nm

Having looked at the torque curve more carefully I see now that with my table axes running at 2000mm/min that the motors should be producing something in the region of 1.7Nm - which should be fine and indeed seems to be so. I can also see why increasing the speed by 50% causes them to lose steps as they've lost 0.5Nm in torque

[Agathon]

Moving off steppers and on to the spindle motor:

I spent this afternoon setting up the inverter and its control in Mach. I found that by fiddling with the PWM base frequency that I could get 100% on Mach spindle control to correspond to 100hz on the inverter (which previously it would not).

Having sorted this out I turned to pulleys and defined the four motor speeds as pulleys. I then calibrated the spindle speed to a range that I thought would work without me having to move the mechanical variator (Reeves type drive) or even replace it with a single fixed ratio poly-v-belt drive. I reasoned I needed speeds between 150rpm and 4000rpm. However, having run the slowest speed of the motor at the lowest reasonable frequency I quickly concluded that the motor has insufficient torque at this speed.

So I've decided to use be able to use the variator in two positions giving tops speeds of 2000rpm and 4000rpm with plenty of low-down torque in the lower range setting. I'll be mostly machining cast iron and steel so the lower range will be deployed most of the time.

As I understand it Mach3 while it's possible to tell Mach3 the spindle speed it cannot change the pulley setting automatically. It would have been nice if one of the four motor speed control relays could have been linked and operated by this feature of the software, but I guess I'm hoping for too much! In any case I'll have to set the variator manually.

[m_c]

I quickly concluded that the motor has insufficient torque at this speed.

[pedant mode] The motor should have the same torque at any speed provided the VFD is not limiting current. It's the lack of gearing that means there is insufficient torque at the spindle[/pedant mode]

As I understand it Mach3 while it's possible to tell Mach3 the spindle speed it cannot change the pulley setting automatically. It would have been nice if one of the four motor speed control relays could have been linked and operated by this feature of the software, but I guess I'm hoping for too much! In any case I'll have to set the variator manually.

Mach 3 can via Macros. I've never done it, however you can use a Macro that takes the requested spindle speed, and changes gears accordingly. Probably worth having a search for gear change over on the Mach forum.

[Agathon]

[QUOTE=m_c;92790][pedant mode] The motor should have the same torque at any speed provided the VFD is not limiting current. It's the lack of gearing that means there is insufficient torque at the spindle[/pedant mode]

While I don't claim any expertise on inverter drives, I've been using them for the last 20 years and my understanding and experience is that torque falls off either side of the nameplate frequency. Modern motors designed for inverters and "vector control" improve the flatness of the torque curve but the reason machine tool manufacturers using this type of drive specify such huge motors is due to the drop-off in torque. As an example, one of the Swiss firms I represent in the UK make a plain lathe of 70mm centre height designed for instrument making and horological work. The spindle is belt driven at 1:1 by a inverter controlled 1.1kW motor. In the past this machine was made with multi-pulley drive with a fixed speed motor of 300W!!!

I hadn't understood the four contactors for speed were operating a mechanical device, I thought you were using the inverter digital inputs to select four preset speeds.

You may have provoked me into boring you all with another video! The contactors just control the 4 motor speeds nothing mechanical. The variator (Reedes drive) gives the mechanical variation.

[EddyCurrent]

Is that Reedes or Reeves, the one where the pulley opens and closes so the belt rides up and down ?

[Agathon]

Is that Reedes or Reeves, the one where the pulley opens and closes so the belt rides up and down ?

Sorry, yes Reeves.

[m_c]

While I don't claim any expertise on inverter drives, I've been using them for the last 20 years and my understanding and experience is that torque falls off either side of the nameplate frequency. Modern motors designed for inverters and "vector control" improve the flatness of the torque curve but the reason machine tool manufacturers using this type of drive specify such huge motors is due to the drop-off in torque. As an example, one of the Swiss firms I represent in the UK make a plain lathe of 70mm centre height designed for instrument making and horological work. The spindle is belt driven at 1:1 by a inverter controlled 1.1kW motor. In the past this machine was made with multi-pulley drive with a fixed speed motor of 300W!!!

For induction motors, torque remains pretty constant over the rated speed range up to the rated speed, and is a result of the amount of current flowing through the windings. Although frequency controls the speed, as speed drops, the voltage required to drive that current through the windings also drops proportionally I.e. for a 3000rpm 240V motor, peak voltage will be around 120V when running at half speed.
Now because voltage is reduced, so is the power output, so if the above motor was rated at 1KW, at 1500RPM it would only be producing 500W. You could increase current (which some inverters can do to give a low speed torque boost), however you risk overheating the windings due to the extra current.

Above the rated speed/power, current becomes limited. So taking the above example motor, and trying to double it's speed to 6000RPM, you can do so by doubling the frequency, however unless you double the supply voltage, 240V will only be able to force half the current needed to get full torque through the windings, with the result you will only get half the rated torque.
The result is above the rating, the motor becomes power limited. You can have double the speed, but only half the torque, so even though the motor is spinning faster, you still only have 1KW of power.

This is why when fixed speed motors with gearing get replaced, they're often replaced with far bigger motors.
With gearing, say you take a 2Nm 3000RPM (probably about 600W), you gear it down 4:1 and get 8Nm at 750RPM.
To get that same torque at the same speed using direct drive, and still retain 3000RPM, you now need a motor capable of 8Nm and 3000RPM, so you need a motor with 4 times the power. (realistically you'd compromise with some gearing, a bit less torque, and running the motor so higher speeds are above the motor rated speed and into the derated/reduced current area).
That's the reason why most modern CNC machines come with such big spindles. For most end users, it not because they're going to be managing to use upwards of 10KW hogging metal with endmills, it's so they still have enough torque to drive a big facemill at a couple hundred RPM while still taking a decent depth of cut.

[Agathon]

For induction motors, torque remains pretty constant over the rated speed range up to the rated speed, and is a result of the amount of current flowing through the windings. Although frequency controls the speed, as speed drops, the voltage required to drive that current through the windings also drops proportionally I.e. for a 3000rpm 240V motor, peak voltage will be around 120V when running at half speed.
Now because voltage is reduced, so is the power output, so if the above motor was rated at 1KW, at 1500RPM it would only be producing 500W. You could increase current (which some inverters can do to give a low speed torque boost), however you risk overheating the windings due to the extra current.

Above the rated speed/power, current becomes limited. So taking the above example motor, and trying to double it's speed to 6000RPM, you can do so by doubling the frequency, however unless you double the supply voltage, 240V will only be able to force half the current needed to get full torque through the windings, with the result you will only get half the rated torque.
The result is above the rating, the motor becomes power limited. You can have double the speed, but only half the torque, so even though the motor is spinning faster, you still only have 1KW of power.

This is why when fixed speed motors with gearing get replaced, they're often replaced with far bigger motors.
With gearing, say you take a 2Nm 3000RPM (probably about 600W), you gear it down 4:1 and get 8Nm at 750RPM.
To get that same torque at the same speed using direct drive, and still retain 3000RPM, you now need a motor capable of 8Nm and 3000RPM, so you need a motor with 4 times the power. (realistically you'd compromise with some gearing, a bit less torque, and running the motor so higher speeds are above the motor rated speed and into the derated/reduced current area).
That's the reason why most modern CNC machines come with such big spindles. For most end users, it not because they're going to be managing to use upwards of 10KW hogging metal with endmills, it's so they still have enough torque to drive a big facemill at a couple hundred RPM while still taking a decent depth of cut.

Very nicely and clearly explained. I was aware of the frequency voltage relationship, but hadn't really twigged the issue of running higher than the name-plate frequency and the consequent lack of volts. As the video shows, I don't really think that torque is going to be so much of an issue as far as the spindle goes, so I'm fairly hopeful about my plan to use the higher mechanical speed setting most of the time. We shall see.

Having looked into Brains more I understand your previous post and think that it all looks doable even for a novice like myself.

[Agathon]

I've done more fiddling with the table and found that at 2500mm/min the table is repeating position over 200mm for the x and 150mm for the y better than 0.01mm (in fact pretty consistently within 0.003mm) which I am extremely pleased with. I tested fairly extensively with 10 or 20 repeat cycles.

I am still getting the grunting noises from time to time, so I suppose this is down to the latency of the processor generating the pulses?

[EddyCurrent]

I hadn't understood the four contactors for speed were operating a mechanical device, I thought you were using the inverter digital inputs to select four preset speeds.