Newbie (ageing rapidly!)

[ManicMetal]

Professionally, mostly IBM 370s, IBM Series 1 some PDP and VAX-11s, Various Micros: SC/MP, 6502, 6809, 68000
My own first computer had 256 bytes of RAM and controlled my model railway.

Ah for the days when computers did as they were told!


So far I've tried:
A breakout board that the supplier claimed would work on either USB or parallel but they actually meant it could be powered from USB (I know rookie mistake).

A UC-100 added to the breakout board, no life signs. No activity on the USB.

A Chinese USB motion controller that they said would work with Mach3 but later confessed only worked with their own proprietary software. Not that I could get that to work either.

A UK supplied (European made) SODIAL USB motion controller. Mach3 didn't even recognise the plugin provided.

A UK supplied (Far east made) NVUM USB motion controller that was supplied with a plugin driver that didn't match what the instructions claimed. They swear it's the correct plugin. Mach3 recognises the plugin but will not communicate with it.

I've downloaded Mach3 multiple times and tried copies provided by the controller supplier. All claim to be the same version, 3.043.066 . I've reinstalled Windows 10 on a formatted laptop. I've tried both the USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 ports and there is data activity on the USB. I've also tried my old Panasonic Toughbook XP machine (ideal for the workshop).

I am close to binning the whole project and sticking to manual machining.

[m_c]

Starting at the top.
Mach parallel port drivers won't run on any 64bit windows, or any 32bit windows after 7.

Was it a genuine UC100 board? Amazon and eBay are full of counterfeit copies, none of which are supported by CNC Drive.

Cheap Chinese is always a gamble.

The only SODIAL board I've found says Mach 3 substitute, so I would doubt it's meant to work with Mach 3.

NVUM do seem very plentiful, so I would expect them to work.


Are the motion controllers showing up correctly in Device Manager with no warnings?
Win10 can be very temperamental with any drivers that are not signed.

[JAZZCNC]

Sorry to say this but unfortunately you are the perfect example to others why you should never try build CNC machine on the cheap or without asking advise first.
I've seen this approach countless times and nearly always ends up costing twice the price of good components. Worse still, as is nearly case with you can lead to folks throwing in the towel giving up on CNC.

It really doesn't need to be that difficult. People just have to understand and be prepared that building a Good reliable CNC machine can't be done cheaply. Trying to do so just leads to frustration and wasted time & money.

So again GOLDEN RULE. . . . NEVER BUY ANYTHING WITHOUT ASKING ADVISE/OPINIONS.

[ManicMetal]

I was assured it was a genuine UC-100 but without a known good one I didn't have a comparison. It should have worked on my 32 bit XP Toughbook. It went back at their expense.
I tried the BOB on a very old desktop (not mine) and it seemed to work from the LPT. i.e inputs and outputs functioned I didn't connect it to the stepper drivers.

The Chinese motion controller was a gamble but why do they bother to say it works with Mach3 and then change their mind when pressed surely they will just get them all sent back! It was well made and appeared well designed for, EMC and isolation. It went back at their expense.

The SODIAL claimed to have a compatible Mach3 plugin but the .dll simply wasn't seen by Mach3 so clearly it wasn't. Not as well built and lacking good EMC design. The supplied USB cable even had fake ferrite cores on it (just plastic blobs with no ferrite inside!). It's going back at their expense.

The NVUM is properly made and looks to have sensible EMC design. (inputs are a bit highZ which could give interference problems but that's easy to prevent.) It appears in device manager under Human Interface Devices as HID-compliant vendor-defined device and as USB input device. No errors with either. The plugin option appears when you start Mach3 as: NVUM_F-Novusun-Plugin-Ver 2.0a. It is enabled within Config Plugins but Config then takes me to a dialog that shows:
DDREAM
ddream device buffer 200ms with ?? in the button
jog buffer 200ms again with ?? in the button
They say that doesn't matter !

The instruction say you should install plugin NVUM_SK.dll but NVUM_F.dll is all that is supplied. They say that is correct in which case the instructions are wrong.
I get a strong feeling they don't know anything about the product they are selling.

Anyone got a working .dll plugin for an NVUM ?

I don't want to go down the route of an old desktop with an LPT. Grinding dust, coolant mist and swarf don't mix with a fan cooled PC. I could look for an old silent (fanless) PC but then I need to find a sealed monitor and somewhere to put it, a keyboard and mouse too.

I'm beginning to think Mach3 is too based around obsolete tech; LPTs and 32bit OS
Should I give up on it? Mach3 and Mill Wizard looked a promising setup but they have been totally unhelpful.

Is there a sensible priced, established, reliable, simple to learn, alternative I should look at?

[magicniner]

The SODIAL claimed to have a compatible Mach3 plugin but the .dll simply wasn't seen by Mach3 so clearly it wasn't.

Plugins are usually specific to a small range of Mach3 versions, often just one ;-)

[ManicMetal]

yes I did have a supply connected but in fact it isn't needed for the controller to communicate (that is USB powered). The external supply is for the isolated I/O.


It's an Axminster ZX30M Mill
I need 4 axis:
X and Y at up to 43kHz to give me 2000mm/min rapids on 16 microsteps
Z at up to 11kHz
A doesn't really matter.

Step, Direction and Enable opto isolation is provided at the stepper drivers. Polarity doesn't matter.

Inputs should be opto isolated but if needed I can do this external to the controller.
I already have signal conditioning for all inputs.
I'd like plenty of inputs:
4 for combined limit and home
1 for a Z tool offset
1 for an X, Y edge finder probe
1 for Estop

Outputs don't need to be isolated, as they will be external to controller.
10v PWM for motor VFD
1 for mist coolant
2 for driver enables to allow staggered power up and to allow X,Y release without losing Z.
(I can easily achieve this external to the controller if needed).

In short nothing that just about every motion controller doesn't claim to offer. As said above "It doesn't need to be that difficult".

The problem with good support is it tends to vanish once they have your money. That's why I mostly bought from UK suppliers but in fairness the Chinese made more of an effort to solve the problem than anyone else.

As for 'Those that know', for every post from someone saying don't touch USB, there are others saying that it works fine. Same is true for every option! They can't all be right.

[JAZZCNC]

As for 'Those that know', for every post from someone saying don't touch USB, there are others saying that it works fine. Same is true for every option! They can't all be right.

Well it's all about experience really and there lies the problem.? Most only have experience with one product or technology on one machine and if by some chance they don't have an issue they claim it's best thing since sliced bread and everybody should use it.!

When I tell someone something is good it's because I've tried tested and fitted or used on multiple machines over period of time. Like wise if I call something Bad it's because I've had multiple bad experiences and trust me I've pulled my hair out with USB many times.

It's an Axminster ZX30M Mill
I need 4 axis:
X and Y at up to 43kHz to give me 2000mm/min rapids on 16 microsteps
Z at up to 11kHz

Ok well first your wasting your time really with 16ms because most steppers can't resolve to that degree if your chasing resolution, which isn't really resolution in true sense. Only other advantage then becomes slightly smoother running motor but will come at cost of torque.
Then you have the fact some motors don't like running at those frequencys so could have issues in that department with them not playing nice with drives regards resonance etc. Again depends on quality of drives/motors.

You'll have more stable machine with x8 ms or x10ms.
If your wanting smoother running motors then I'd suggest looking at 3 phase steppers as they run much smoother

I'm assuming that you must 2.5mm pitch screws if you have calculated 43khz.

Now I'm going to suggest a card that I know will fit your needs perfectly for Mill and it probably has the Best Software in the business which as been developed over 30yrs and runs $$$$$ machines so is very well supported and rock solid.
However this slightly breaks my rule on recommending because while I do have one of these cards here on test I've not actually fitted any to machines. But I do know plenty about them and have several contacts who like me are very experienced and have fitted to many machines.

The card is Acorn from Centroid and you'll find it here. Again not cheap but it's the best in it's class when figure in the software/backup.
http://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_...ontroller.html

[ManicMetal]

You're right 2.5mm pitch screws.
I've already had the X and Y drives running (from a signal gen) up to about 60kHz (2800mm/min on 16 ustep) Where the power supplies run out of voltage to drive the 2.8mH inductance. I loaded the bed with my heaviest vice, and angle plate.

It isn't a matter of resolution 8 ustep would give me 1.5um resolution (way more than the tolerances of the machine) but 16 ustep does give a noticeably smoother motion than 8. There is hardly any reduction in torque (this is more a factor of adequate drive voltage). I've specified 2000mm/min at 16 ustep to stay within reasonable rpm for the motors while keeping to a frequency the motion controller should be capable of, I can always reduce this if needed (commissioning trials will prove the limits and determine the maximum ramp rates).

I'll take a look at the Acorn system, seems a shame to abandon Mach3 and Mill Wizard, I like their simplicity.

[m_c]

The accuracy gains between 8 and 16 microsteps will be marginal if any. The only time a stepper will produce full torque is when on a full step. In between those full steps, you're relying on two magnetic fields balancing the rotor over the magnetic detent. Stiction, friction, and cutting forces will all have an effect on the exact position the rotor ends up balancing.
Motor torque is directly related to current, not voltage. The reason voltage comes into the equation, is because as motor speed increases, so does back EMF. The higher the available voltage, the faster the motor can spin before the back EMF becomes too high for the supply voltage to push enough current through the motor windings. Once you reach that point, the current flowing through the windings falls off resulting in reduced torque.

Step, Direction and Enable opto isolation is provided at the stepper drivers. Polarity doesn't matter.

Maybe not electrically, but it does for the step/direction timing.


I use USB on all my machines, but I'm well aware certain installations can be plagued with problems.
The big problem is most USB motion controllers will cause Mach 3 to lockup if there is any kind of glitch/communication failure with the USB, at which point the only solution is a reboot, as there is no graceful timeout or failure.

[ManicMetal]

That's spot on m_c. I'm not concerned with the accuracy, it will be plenty good enough and other issues such as backlash, drive belt tooth engagement, quill bearing precision etc will all be significantly greater.

There is very little, if any, torque reduction from 8 ustep to 16ustep it is just a bit smoother at low speeds. I could go down to 4 ustep, and it's still acceptable, if the operating frequency proves to be a problem. At high speeds the momentum of the rotor and load make the microstepping irrelevant and the driver reverts to full step to get a bit better torque.

The stepper drivers are current regulated so they deliver what ever voltage is needed to achieve the desired current up to the maximum the power supply can give. The higher the rpm needed from the motor the higher the frequency from the drive and the higher the reactance from the motor stators. Higher reactance then requires a higher voltage to reach the desired current.

The point about the step/direction/enable signals being opto isolated means I can wire them common anode or common cathode to suit the controller outputs, they will all be the same so no effect on timing.

USB manages to communicate totally reliably for many other devices, other than poor EMC design, why should a motion controller fail to talk properly on USB?

What motion controllers have you had least problems from?