Luthier CNC

[bluesking]

Well Fred's kit is the real deal so you don't need to worry about it being fake Hiwin linear rails and bearings, the fake stuff doesn't move as smoothly as genuine Hiwin dose, Hiwin is usually quieter as well.

Don't forget to clean them and give a few drops of oil, once everything is setup and running great you can start using Lithium 2 lubricating grease, this lasts longer.

Thanks Lee. I had a go at aligning everything tonight. Definitely improved. Shimming made a difference but still something a little sticky at the extremes. I then tried relaxing all the various attachment points for the ballscrew but this didn't make much difference. In the end I relaxed all of the big 12mm screws holding the 3 main extrusions. This made a significant difference but if I tighten them all up as tight as I can there is still some binding. In the end I tightened them quite gently and this reduced the binding at the extremes to very low levels and the overall frame still seems very rigid. I'm still concerned its not exactly perfect!

I don't really understand what you mean by moving the mechanism with one finger. Certainly pushing the gantry, it doesn't move, there is enough friction to stop any linear force from being converted to rotational motion. For the vast majority of the travel I can just about turn the pulley with one finger - is this what I should be looking for?

I do have a dial calliper and stand but very few places to attach it and not really enough skill to use it. I think I'm going to have to just move on and hope - without any experience it is hard to know if I'm facing real problems or just being picky!

[MikeyC38]

Hi bluesking
When I built mine (see here) It moved by it self once I had pushed gently.The ballscrew was NOT connected for this test so that you can detect any binding in the bearings. However I am using SBR bearings on a supported round rail. These are more tolerant of misalignment than the bearings you are using. With the bearings you are using for the gantry, accurate alignment is a must, I'm afraid, but they are the best you can buy!

[bluesking]

Hi bluesking
When I built mine (see here) It moved by it self once I had pushed gently.The ballscrew was NOT connected for this test so that you can detect any binding in the bearings. However I am using SBR bearings on a supported round rail. These are more tolerant of misalignment than the bearings you are using. With the bearings you are using for the gantry, accurate alignment is a must, I'm afraid, but they are the best you can buy!

Thanks Mikey,
Thing is, even just running a single hiwin hgr 20 carriage along a single rail (hence no opportunity for misalignment), you give it a little push and it moves, but as soon as you stop applying force it stops - no momentum retained. I think this is due to the relatively high pre-load on the the HGR carriages - they just behave that way. Anyway, with no ballscrew connected I think things behave well overall (see my video above). Connecting the ballscrew introduced the problems - though these have been much reduced now - I just don't know what I am aiming for!

[Voicecoil]

I'll agree 100% about the HGR20's being a little sticky, but I'd rather they were that way and had no play, than "free and easy" and wobbling all over the place. If you can turn the ball screw end shafts smoothly between finger and thumb then I guess it should be OK - after all, a decent stepper should be giving a good few hundred Ncm torque.

[bluesking]

I'll agree 100% about the HGR20's being a little sticky, but I'd rather they were that way and had no play, than "free and easy" and wobbling all over the place. If you can turn the ball screw end shafts smoothly between finger and thumb then I guess it should be OK - after all, a decent stepper should be giving a good few hundred Ncm torque.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts about the HGR20s. I think I've got the rails sorted, its the ballscrew causing issues I think. I have got it to a much improved state, but I can't quite "turn the ball screw end shafts smoothly between finger and thumb". Whilst the resistance along the entire travel is now pretty much uniform, there is a little patchiness to the motion - there are occasional slight sticking points which require a bit more force than just two fingers can apply. I mainly test it using the belt to move the ball screw and it all operates ok in motion though from a standing start it can be a little "sticky".

It may well be fine with the reasonably overpowered servos I will be using. I'm going to leave it as is and proceed with the other axes so I can compare the motions between each axis.

If its still a problem I can think of only 2 ways forward:
- widen some of the mounting holes so the major extrusions have a little more "wiggle room" so I have broader alignment range
- buy a new ballscrew - I worry I may have subtly bent this one during my initial tests and now it will bind whatever I do...

[Voicecoil]

there is a little patchiness to the motion - there are occasional slight sticking points which require a bit more force than just two fingers can apply

BTW, did you check the ballscrew for smoothness throughout its' length before mounting it?? As I mentioned in my thread here: http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12524-gritty-ballscrews , although Fred tries hard to please, his engineers don't always seem to adhere to the old saying "cleanliness is Godliness" when it comes to machining ballscrews. Even the replacement parts he sent me needed a clean, strip down, flush through and re-grease before they were acceptably smooth. Try running (twisting) the sticky portions through a piece of clean tissue and then examine under magnification to see if there's any small flakes of swarf.

[bluesking]

BTW, did you check the ballscrew for smoothness throughout its' length before mounting it?? As I mentioned in my thread here: http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12524-gritty-ballscrews , although Fred tries hard to please, his engineers don't always seem to adhere to the old saying "cleanliness is Godliness" when it comes to machining ballscrews. Even the replacement parts he sent me needed a clean, strip down, flush through and re-grease before they were acceptably smooth. Try running (twisting) the sticky portions through a piece of clean tissue and then examine under magnification to see if there's any small flakes of swarf.

I think you may be right. I need to dismantle much of my machine anyway so best get to cleaning the ballscrews!

In my hurry I didn't attach the nipples to my HIWIN carriages so this is probably a good opportunity to do that as well. I see you have made a post about these nipples: Do you know if the following are a good way to go for greasing the carriages? Are they also suitable for greasing ballscrews/nuts?

https://www.toolstation.com/laser-grease-gun/p29224
https://www.toolstation.com/lithium-grease/p89691

[Lee Roberts]

I don't really understand what you mean by moving the mechanism with one finger. Certainly pushing the gantry, it doesn't move, there is enough friction to stop any linear force from being converted to rotational motion. For the vast majority of the travel I can just about turn the pulley with one finger - is this what I should be looking for?

I mean I can move my whole Z axis from the left to the right of the X axis (gantry) really easily, I can push it with my finger and the ball screw on the X axis just spin's like its nothing, its actually amazing that I got it so perfect pre dial indicator to check anything. I think I just got well lucky but it wasn't first time fitting, i went back and forth (literally) for hours loosening the rails and the ball nut and screw fixings until everything just moved perfectly by hand, I used the same method I gave above to do this and at some point you have to say OK that's as good as it gets and start tightening things up as permanent.

I'm really close with the Y axis (bed) but I think its just off a little bit still, like you I still have "sticky points" along the travel, if I push my gantry it is much harder to push along then the X axis for sure but dose go with enough force to get the screw spinning. Still building my machine but i'm going over at the weekend to have another play, I'll get my mate to video me pushing mine about so you can see, maybe the others with more experience can then give their thoughts.

From what I understand, anything less than dial indicator prefect just means uneven ware and tare on the parts and that on a hobby machine used 2-3 times a week, this ware would be negligible because it would take forever to accumulate enough to effect anything a hobbyist would be looking to achieve - Somewhat subjective I know.

[bluesking]

Lee, you are a legend, thanks for all the detailed and helpful responses. I will be sure to post a vid showing some of the machine motion once its rebuilt.

Machine is currently in pieces because today I have disassembled all 3 of my ball screws. Cleaned every part with naphtha and relubed with lithium grease (thanks AndyUK - I just smeared about 3cm^3 on the screw and ran the nut over it, repeating until none was left collecting on the rubber seals at the ends of the nut).

Counted the ball bearings - exactly 51 in each ball screw and I managed to get exactly 17 back into each track when reassembling. I reassembled them dry, using the ballscrew itself to guide the balls into their channels. Found this easy and I think its less messy than using grease to stick everything in place. I used the method in this vid to repack the balls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXdt5M8ZeoE

All I have to show for my work is the following vid. Shows all the nasty stuff left floating in the naphtha after cleaning each ballscrew:
https://streamable.com/up3n4

End result certainly feels subjectively smoother - will only know for sure once the machine is rebuilt. One thing I've noticed is that after cleaning the nuts do not spin as easily - though they do spin much more smoothly. I put this down to increased viscosity of the lithium grease compared to what was in there from the factory.

[Lee Roberts]

Lee, you are a legend, thanks for all the detailed and helpful responses. I will be sure to post a vid showing some of the machine motion once its rebuilt.

Machine is currently in pieces because today I have disassembled all 3 of my ball screws. Cleaned every part with naphtha and relubed with lithium grease (thanks AndyUK - I just smeared about 3cm^3 on the screw and ran the nut over it, repeating until none was left collecting on the rubber seals at the ends of the nut).

Counted the ball bearings - exactly 51 in each ball screw and I managed to get exactly 17 back into each track when reassembling. I reassembled them dry, using the ballscrew itself to guide the balls into their channels. Found this easy and I think its less messy than using grease to stick everything in place. I used the method in this vid to repack the balls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXdt5M8ZeoE

All I have to show for my work is the following vid. Shows all the nasty stuff left floating in the naphtha after cleaning each ballscrew:
https://streamable.com/up3n4

End result certainly feels subjectively smoother - will only know for sure once the machine is rebuilt. One thing I've noticed is that after cleaning the nuts do not spin as easily - though they do spin much more smoothly. I put this down to increased viscosity of the lithium grease compared to what was in there from the factory.

No problem, great that's good to know about the ball count if you ever lose any let me know I can send you some the right size.

Yea that's how I started doing them years ago (dry+screw) I've rebuilt quite a few for people now and found it a little obstructive using the screw (length/weight) so I just use a tube of ali to the right OD with a hose spring clip attached to one side, I slide this in just after I've got the first track filled, it depends on the job though as some people ask for the nut to be on the screw when i send it back because they don't want to risk it again. Both ways though I still use a little grease as a "retainer", they used to ship the nuts with the tube and a clip on both ends but they seem to be a plastic tube with cable tie now.

13mm (1/2") Aluminium Alloy Tube

Best served with some of these: Double Wire Spring Clip