JBEC CNC Router System is now available in the UK

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Rory,

So roughly £5500 for working Mid size machine with No PC or Spindle. . . .Thank you for a straight answer.

I wish you well with this machine and it's well thought out and put together. The only thing that concerns me is the linear bearings.?
At this money I would be expecting profiled linear rails, Looking at this machine it appears like it's using some Hybrid design.? Round rail in a machined housing.?
Because of all the shielding etc which is good thing, but does always make me wonder is it for the right reasons or just hiding something not so desirable.? we can't actually see the bearings/carriage and type or how the ride on the rails.!! . . . . Would it be possible to see this area please.?

Has you know and I know the linear rails are major part the machine and affect accuracy and quality of cut greatly so for this machine to stand the test of time the bearings/carriage design will need to be good. Even cheap bearings will last 12mth warranty period and for nearly 5K I'd be wanting and expecting maintenance free(other than lube) bearings for minimum 3-5yrs or better. So this would be an important and off putting if not decent quality design and bearings consideration for me.!!

Rest of machine looks Spot on thou. .

Oh Not keen on all electrics being housed in part of the main cutting frame, Shock vibration etc doesn't do most things any good. Then there's them pesky chips and coolant issues, esp if you plan on cutting aluminium which some will want to do, has even with air/mist coolant still collects and runs into cracks etc so hope it's well sealed.!

Please don't think I'm trying to pull machine down, I'm honestly not. I'm just doing my usual close looking and pointing out things less experienced potential customers won't see. If experienced folks like me don't speak up then we end up with likes of Strike CNC taking folks for thousands.

Cheers
Dean.

Edit: Ps. Would be nice to see pics of inside the Electrical housing so we can be sure there's no Ala Strike CNC booby trap surprises.!!

[StoneyCNC]

Hi Rory,

So roughly £4500 for working Mid size machine with No PC or Spindle. . . .Thank you for a straight answer.

I wish you well with this machine and it's well thought out and put together. The only thing that concerns me is the linear bearings.?
At this money I would be expecting profiled linear rails, Looking at this machine it appears like it's using some Hybrid design.? Round rail in a machined housing.?
Because of all the shielding etc which is good thing, but does always make me wonder is it for the right reasons or just hiding something not so desirable.? we can't actually see the bearings/carriage and type or how the ride on the rails.!! . . . . Would it be possible to see this area please.?

Has you know and I know the linear rails are major part the machine and affect accuracy and quality of cut greatly so for this machine to stand the test of time the bearings/carriage design will need to be good. Even cheap bearings will last 12mth warranty period and for nearly 5K I'd be wanting and expecting maintenance free(other than lube) bearings for minimum 3-5yrs or better. So this would be an important and off putting if not decent quality design and bearings consideration for me.!!

Rest of machine looks Spot on thou. .

Oh Not keen on all electrics being housed in part of the main cutting frame, Shock vibration etc doesn't do most things any good. Then there's them pesky chips and coolant issues, esp if you plan on cutting aluminium which some will want to do, has even with air/mist coolant still collects and runs into cracks etc so hope it's well sealed.!

Please don't think I'm trying to pull machine down, I'm honestly not. I'm just doing my usual close looking and pointing out things less experienced potential customers won't see. If experienced folks like me don't speak up then we end up with likes of Strike CNC taking folks for thousands.

Cheers
Dean.

Edit: Ps. Would be nice to see pics of inside the Electrical housing so we can be sure there's no Ala Strike CNC booby trap surprises.!!

Dean - This is exactly the sort of involved feedback we are looking for and in our opinion it is very difficult to get people to think in this manner - thank you for taking the time to look over our system and highlight some very important considerations when looking at this type of router system. Typically with customers the price tag is king - but only half the story. And as you know only once you get to know the beast do you start to see the quirks.

I am not familiar with Strike CNC? What was the story there with their "booby trap"? haha sounds like fun times :) Every minute your "bought CNC machine" is "not machining for you" or at the very least "in a position to do so" it is lost value to the customer. When I bought my first router I spent more time making it better than using it!!! Our experience with other low cost router systems have shown up common pitfalls in machine design. With that said low cost machines do teach people CNC and are accessible at their price. The problem is customers do not fully understand the limitations of such systems at the point of sale and this has created issues with support warranties etc. It is for these reasons that we have chosen the presented platform.

And I'm 100% with you on the rail systems. The rail system is probably THE most important part of the entire machine design. Our ball screws are shoulder machined on both sides and sit fully supported at each end condition in the bearing housing. Therefore no load is transferred to the motor and there is no "rock" within the bearings in the frame. This design while generating excellent performance inherently challenges the gantry structure as the frame MUST be straight and 100% true to prevent lock up and jamming etc - this design demands flawless performance from the rail system. We have two ball-screws driving each gantry pillar on the main axis also. This is part of the reason we have such a stiff frame and supply a fully modular system. With the design there is no scope for misalignment of the gantry structure due to improper bench installation etc etc. However the trade off with the stiff heavy superstructure is that it does add to the cost but we feel its more than justified.

Our rail system is custom built in Germany - I won't go into specifics until I have pictures to support explanations - early next week at the latest.

The electronics are safely sealed away - all the cover panels are CNC cut and are sealed with sealant around the edges. The Tslot table end condition also provides a level of drip creep prevention from pesky coolant :) More details to come ASAP also there

We have had customers hammering 3D work in hardwood with no issues on full time production. The drive and PSU mount layout has heat-sink properties and there is also room for adding control boards if necessary for advanced machine variations.

We have a machine in a stage of assembly that that will suit to support the information you are after. I will be working on the machine on Monday and will take some sample pictures of the considerations you have highlighted. Is there anything else you would like to see while the opportunity is there?

Also - can you point me in the direction of a possible show/fair/expo where a stand would cross paths with the wider CNC community? We prefer potential customers seeing it in the flesh.

[JAZZCNC]

I am not familiar with Strike CNC? What was the story there with their "booby trap"?

Check this out.! http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/mills-...router-23.html

And I'm 100% with you on the rail systems. The rail system is probably THE most important part of the entire machine design. Our ball screws are shoulder machined on both sides and sit fully supported at each end condition in the bearing housing. Therefore no load is transferred to the motor and there is no "rock" within the bearings in the frame. This design while generating excellent performance inherently challenges the gantry structure as the frame MUST be straight and 100% true to prevent lock up and jamming etc - this design demands flawless performance from the rail system. We have two ball-screws driving each gantry pillar on the main axis also. This is part of the reason we have such a stiff frame and supply a fully modular system. With the design there is no scope for misalignment of the gantry structure due to improper bench installation etc etc. However the trade off with the stiff heavy superstructure is that it does add to the cost but we feel its more than justified.

Rory please save your fingers and lay off the sales patter a minute we know all this has it's standard stuff, or should be on any half decent quality CNC machine, just this below would have done.!. . . LOL

Our rail system is custom built in Germany - I won't go into specifics until I have pictures to support explanations - early next week at the latest.

The electronics are safely sealed away - all the cover panels are CNC cut and are sealed with sealant around the edges. The Tslot table end condition also provides a level of drip creep prevention from pesky coolant :) More details to come ASAP also there

We have had customers hammering 3D work in hardwood with no issues on full time production. The drive and PSU mount layout has heat-sink properties and there is also room for adding control boards if necessary for advanced machine variations.

Good on the sealing but this won't stop vibes killing or shaking lose electronic components long term.! . . How long has this machine been in production.?

We have a machine in a stage of assembly that that will suit to support the information you are after. I will be working on the machine on Monday and will take some sample pictures of the considerations you have highlighted. Is there anything else you would like to see while the opportunity is there?

Nope but look forward to seeing more of it's guts.!

Also - can you point me in the direction of a possible show/fair/expo where a stand would cross paths with the wider CNC community? We prefer potential customers seeing it in the flesh.

Nope other than likes of Model engineering shows etc but I've been to several shows and only seen 3 CNC based company's. One selling router's like yours and the other Laser cutters and then Arc euro trade with millers. Most gave up on shows in the end I think.? . . . Model engineers are mostly grumpy old dinosaur tight twat's like John S. .

Thanks for your time and open honesty it's rare quality these days from folks trying to make money from CNC.

[mekanik]

Model engineers are mostly grumpy old dinosaur tight twat's like John S
I resemble that remark

[JAZZCNC]

I resemble that remark

Me Too but I hide it well..!!

[StoneyCNC]

Wow - shocking stuff re STRIKECNC! The worst part of all that is that CNC for me is fun and hugely rewarding and you can turn creativity into realism and that sort of bad press puts a sour taste in peoples mouth. You should not have to "modify a machine under warranty" the machine should work. I can't believe so many sales happened as they did... Really bad press for CNC and I'm very sad to hear as such... I do hope that my initial impression does not lead to any such equivalent opinions!

Rory please save your fingers and lay off the sales patter a minute we know all this has it's standard stuff, or should be on any half decent quality CNC machine, just this below would have done.!. . . LOL

Apologies for incessant typing But we have seen machines come in with slap in the ballscrew housings that negates any of the advantages that the ballscrews can deliver in the first place. Sometimes you really have to wonder...?

Good on the sealing but this won't stop vibes killing or shaking lose electronic components long term.! . . How long has this machine been in production.?

This is an interesting point and one which I have some experience with through my time at University - my first comment is that self excited machine vibration / chatter is not good and causes havoc with the cutting results as well as with the machine and should be avoided like the plague at all costs - and chatter is down to the machine frame dynamics, the cutter and the tool path parameters.. However chatter aside - the level of vibration from a spindle during cutting especially is significant and as you know the vibration level is the square of the rotational speed which does not help our cause as CNCists.

Our machines come with rubber feet with height adjustment. The rubber feet dampen out the hummmmmm associated with a rotational vibration excitation being transmitted through (and in some cases amplified by) the machine structure into the table. For sure the hummm can then be transmitted back to the control bay and cause fatigue/terminal issues long term however the levels of vibration are relatively low in our case. The digital leadshine drives to my knowledge have midband resonance damping so the steppers run smooth and so do the drive systems - minimal vibration levels contributed there. The ER20 collets on the high speed spindles we use run very true with little run-out minimising the eccentric mass levels during rotation minimising vibration levels.

The control electronics are mounted onto a plate that is secured to the base of the box section frame on the opposite side of the machining table. Therefore there is the Tslot bed and the 80mm x 50mm frame bed acting as a mechanical filter between cutting and the control bay. Again with that said I could put an accelerometer on the machine and see what the actual acceleration levels generated are. The machine has been in production with us for almost two years with no issues to date. To memory the BOB is mounted on rubber standoffs and has a ribbon cable between the LPT output and the machine frame - I'll check it out. The leadshines are bolted to the Al plate - again I'll give more deets with pics early next week.

Long term I'm also a fan of the soldering Iron. Time yes - but worth it!!!

Nope other than likes of Model engineering shows etc but I've been to several shows and only seen 3 CNC based company's. One selling router's like yours and the other Laser cutters and then Arc euro trade with millers. Most gave up on shows in the end I think.? . . . Model engineers are mostly grumpy old dinosaur tight twat's like John S. .

Haha! a very honest response. may not be worth the effort in that case.. interesting

Thanks for your time and open honesty it's rare quality these days from folks trying to make money from CNC.

Many thanks for your positive words. I got into CNC as I love the freedom of being able to turn ideas into reality and was always frustrated at University as the machines were the technicians territory. There was a serious disconnect between the eejit doing the CAD drawings and the eeejit machining the bits..

We would like to contribute positively to this area as I feel there is a "make it movement" occurring. We need to start making things again and we can't make stuff - or even begin to makes stuff with CNC tools - if there are not affordable machines that can actually do some commercial work and get people into it.

[JAZZCNC]

Wow - shocking stuff re STRIKECNC! The worst part of all that is that CNC for me is fun and hugely rewarding and you can turn creativity into realism and that sort of bad press puts a sour taste in peoples mouth. You should not have to "modify a machine under warranty" the machine should work. I can't believe so many sales happened as they did... Really bad press for CNC and I'm very sad to hear as such... I do hope that my initial impression does not lead to any such equivalent opinions!

Yep a first class eeejit. Purely in it for profit not the mutual benefit of both party's.
He had every chance to put things right but failed miserably, he failed on every count.

To me any business person touting there machines on public forum like this need to be ready and prepared for folks like me.!!
I grew up in the Car trade and can smell and spot bullshit from thousand miles, my engineering background and experience in CNC also allows me to see threw smoke and mirrors and spot the things that matter or in his case fail massively.

You my friend are clearly NOT smelly or an illusionist and so far you have answered my questions perfectly satisfactory.!! . . Well Bit waffley but I'm ok with that. . Lol . . better to over explain than be vague thou just be careful not to over do it and start smelling like bull excrement.!!

Our machines come with rubber feet with height adjustment. The rubber feet dampen out the hummmmmm associated with a rotational vibration excitation being transmitted through (and in some cases amplified by) the machine structure into the table. For sure the hummm can then be transmitted back to the control bay and cause fatigue/terminal issues long term however the levels of vibration are relatively low in our case.

I see what your saying and while this may be fine for lighter work like cutting woods etc, which I'm getting the impression most of these machines have been marketed and sold to do I can tell you for sure that it will be a very different case if it starts cutting Aluminium at any usable depth.
I've made several steel framed machines which easily match and surpass the strength of your machine and I can tell you 100% that when rough cutting Ali at 3-4mm+ DOC with larger cutters (upto 12mm) it will transfer thru the frame.
This is where my experience with cutting mostly aluminium comes in and the electronics sat directly underneath the Bed and on the frame would concern me long term.!!

Look forward to seeing under the bonnet.!

[Fivetide]

And then there’s rednecks like me who are far too old to start learning all this shit and just want a reliable machine that works out of the box and don’t cost the same a three bedroom semi. So I rely on people like Jazz to cut through the bull, bring the Spanish inquisition down upon potential sellers so I’m not spending hours crying into my milk about cowboys like StrikeCNC. And thus if you are able to pass his integrity check without any long term metal issues you will defiantly be on my list of potential new machines (if and when ) my new project makes any money.

[StoneyCNC]

looking forward to seeing those stoney ,my first thoughts were theres skate type bearings hidden away in there.nice machines.

haha - fair, the saying goes - its whats "not said" that can leave questions... gutted pictures of her with he clothes off and more explanations to come ASAP.

I see what your saying and while this may be fine for lighter work like cutting woods etc, which I'm getting the impression most of these machines have been marketed and sold to do I can tell you for sure that it will be a very different case if it starts cutting Aluminium at any usable depth.
I've made several steel framed machines which easily match and surpass the strength of your machine and I can tell you 100% that when rough cutting Ali at 3-4mm+ DOC with larger cutters (upto 12mm) it will transfer thru the frame.
This is where my experience with cutting mostly aluminium comes in and the electronics sat directly underneath the Bed and on the frame would concern me long term.!!

Look forward to seeing under the bonnet.!

12mm cutter up to 3-4mm DOC in ALI would indeed generate significant feed forces and vibrations and of course would make everything hum Until I have hard evidence of potential to show in HD I'm going to stay in my box for now :)

You my friend are clearly NOT smelly or an illusionist and so far you have answered my questions perfectly satisfactory.!! . . Well Bit waffley but I'm ok with that. . Lol . . better to over explain than be vague thou just be careful not to over do it and start smelling like bull excrement.!!

haha - be careful - my years of University were conducive to excessive waffle - I have a better gauge on the audience here now so I shall amend tone accordingly to get rid of any smelly stuff! Smelly stuff is not the goal here! - its great to knock heads with people who know what the story is

And then there’s rednecks like me who are far too old to start learning all this shit and just want a reliable machine that works out of the box and don’t cost the same a three bedroom semi. So I rely on people like Jazz to cut through the bull, bring the Spanish inquisition down upon potential sellers so I’m not spending hours crying into my milk about cowboys like StrikeCNC. And thus if you are able to pass his integrity check without any long term metal issues you will defiantly be on my list of potential new machines (if and when ) my new project makes any money.

haha great response :) Its great to get an integrity check by someone with such experience...! And a machine should work to claimed spec - end of.

[John S]

Model engineers are mostly grumpy old dinosaur tight twat's like John S. .

Hey I resemble that remark.

Anyway less of the model, I work in 12" to the foot.