RFQ Response Etiquette, (The Man In A Shed) vs (The Commercial Operator)

**Fivetide** · 31-01-2014

Ah “Man in a Shed syndrome” , I like it  Personally I wish to remain always a man in a shed, but I am aiming at a niece market where a workshop cannot “do” what I want to do. And therefore I charge accordingly. However an example of “Man in a Van “ would have been my Dad, who took his redundancy money and bought a Transit van and sold nappies to Nursery’s out of the backdoor. Same product the big boys were selling only he had no marketing, office storage or personal overheads. That said 10 years later he was the biggest private medical supplies business on the Fylde coast. Going from a transit full of nappies a week to 4 Artics full of Baby to Man size incontinence pants.,per week. Man in a shed is the start for some and the end for others.
Now my Dad is a Justice of the Peace an ex Major .. shop steward and Labour councillor , he ran his company by the book for 10 years but was investigated by the Inland revenue for 2 of those years. Why you may ask? Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders. So the wages where well above average and the company gave very generous bonuses. The turnover of staff was 0% throughout the life of the company and he retired with a good pension and some sizable assets. The Inland revenue couldn’t understand why he was paying so little profit tax on such a large turnover. They were basing the idea on the standard greedy owner who exploits his workers. Anyway I thought I would share .. its probs off topic but in my mind its knowledge worth sharing.

**blackburn mark** · 31-01-2014

Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders.

Nothing is quite as gorgeous as a man big enough to stick to "solidarity" in the minefield of success :)
Maybe I have gone blind in my old age but I cant seem to see any of that in the leadership today.... somehow it seems the scum has managed to rise to the top.

**corkcnc** · 31-01-2014

Hi all,
I avoided posting in case it was seen by anyone as sour grapes. However I'm quite happy to share a couple of lines on my situation.
As I said in my intro some months back, I do my best to charge man in a shed prices. On this side of the pond we don't have anything like a hobby allowance, income is income and woe betide the person who tries to avoid their tax liabilities. Irish revenue keep us all in line by applying penalties and interest on unpaid taxes that will in almost all cases I've seen, exceed the initial moneys.
So for someone like me, for everything I earn after expenses, I hand over 41% of that to big brother as the day job knocks me into the higher band. As Andy mentioned I live in a society and a man must pay his dues. So break down my £25 and you are looking at £15 left before I've provided everything from power,tools,coolant, right down to the sacrificial base plate. So while I'm not a business man I still have to abide by the rules.
As Jon said, he is not breaking any laws if he is under his tax threshold (if he was doing the job himself) and in Ireland I could operate cheaper if I was either out of work, a student or retired till I reach the threshold for marginal tax. So for me it's not sour grapes, it's a free market and I compete in this same market. If someone can do it cheaper, fine, best of luck to them.
I think it has been a very worthwhile discussion, the problem with internet discussions is that a lot can be inferred that is not meant and Jon's "shocked" smiley face, as he said himself was a bit out of place.
I'm learning loads from this forum specifically the old posts on automation and I like to do interesting jobs for people if I have the time so I reply to the rfqs and if I get outbid then that's life. I wouldn't lower my prices any lower for two reasons, firstly because life is short and I love spending time with my kids and it's not worth it if the extra few quid doesn't improve our lot. It pays for the small things, like new tools or swimming classes, not Ferraris I'm afraid. Secondly we do a highly skilled job, not everyone can do it. The complex stuff can take a bit of time. I could be in bed reading my book and suddenly find that I've zoned out from the page and I'm working out where to put the cutter compensation in a deep pocket.
Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.
Noel.

**EddyCurrent** · 31-01-2014

Originally Posted by corkcnc

Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.

Amen to that

**blackburn mark** · 31-01-2014

[QUOTE= morphed beyond recognition.[/QUOTE]
I guess we can get a bit carried away but it all part of the fun.
I'm with you when it comes to sticking to your guns on price, life is kind of short :)
Jonathan is young and has time to burn :)

**EddyCurrent** · 31-01-2014

blackburn mark,

This time I like your crack, life is too short and in time Jonathan will be coming from another angle so lets all kick back and chill out.

**JAZZCNC** · 01-02-2014

What I find the most saddening is that all, Alex and my self where trying to point out was becareful because you are subject to tax laws. Which to me was good helpful advise but for our trouble we get shit like this thrown at us.
Fact your under the threshold makes no differance if you get reported and haven't declared your earnings they can still prosecute you if they feel the need.

In my day job business's which is nothing to do with CNC I pay insurance just incase the Tax man ever investigates me.? Why because the expense of an investigation can easily run into £1000's of pounds and take years to resolve.!! . . . . Trust me on this because I've been on the receiving end of being raped by the Tax man and when they feel you've been less than truthful they turn you inside out go back to before time began and treat you like your Ronnie Biggs whether you are or not.!!

So crack on "Men in shed's" but keep some lube handy because If HMRC comes knocking he'll bend you over dry with very little warning.!!

**blackburn mark** · 01-02-2014

In that case Jazz, I'm not sure why you are frustrated?
My objections are contingent upon there being some malice and in light of your words being of no such thing, they are not levelled at you and I will take responsibility for jumping the gun... however, I will to some extent continue to offer some opposition to your putting the fear of god into any souls that wish to use this site to "dip there wick" into the world of manufacturing.

I am not offering legal advice and I am not advising people to "avoid" or ignore the conundrum twixt "dipping their wick" and taking the piss.
It is a subjective shout on the side of the hobby manufacturer to draw a line between hobby and money making tax liable business.

We ALL already know that the law is a blunt tool in that for all intent and purpose it would hold that your granny is liable if she decides to sell that jumper she knitted for you on ebay....
Somewhere between knitted jumper and IPhone manufacturer there is a line and common sense "should" have folks have at least a rudimentary idea where that line is.
Personally (OPINION) I would draw the line at skimming money from the hobby/business to spend on items that are unrelated to the building or running of that business excluding any grotesque asset building/collecting.

I DO NOT advise anybody to do as I say or do... I am only offering my thoughts on the issue of the hysteresis loop between grannies knitted jumper and the Iphone manufacturer.... how many knitted jumpers can granny sell before she is taking the piss?
There is an answer but unfortunately, it is a subjective one.

**JAZZCNC** · 01-02-2014

Mark I completely 100% agree there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes either.! . . .BUT and the whole point in MY original post, forget all the stuff after, was to becareful what you post publicly. Which in this case was Esp true because the little arrogant shit was putting down a bloke who just gave what was asked for a "Quote" in the full knowledge he could safely do so without fear of the Taxman. Jon then gave out Specific Figures of what He " illegaly in Tax mans world" charges which is in my eyes dumber than dumb considering you have just tried to belittle a hard working bloke who could possibly be very pissed off .!!

My frustration came from the narrow mindedness of my post being twisted into something it wasn't, which seems to be happening a lot lately from the ones who clearly don't like me, which is fair enough as it's just par the course with forums.! . . . But I won't stand by and say nothing esp when I've only tried to pass on sound advise for someones own good.! . . . . . But on reflection and following his comments aimed to me I hope some Bastard does report him has he needs that arrogant chip knocking off his shoulders, thou rest assured it won't be me.!

**blackburn mark** · 01-02-2014

I am happy to agree that Jonathan was insensitive with his bid.
I am also happy to stand next to Corkcnc on his bid... I wouldn't put bids in on this site in a "business" capacity because there are to many people "dipping their wick" or jobs are done to some extent on good will and that cannot be competed with.... that's a good thing!

My frustration came from the narrow mindedness of my post being twisted into something it wasn't, which seems to be happening a lot lately from the ones who clearly don't like me

How many time do we need to go through this Jazz?
Do you want me to draw you a picture or should I use shorter words?
Maybe a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates to prove that any objections that I made where intended to counter any malice and as you have stated again and again, there was no malice in your words to Jonathan and as I have stated, I did not have you in mind when I originally objected so you where NOT being attacked.

If you expect me to take your word that there was no malice, it would be wise for you too extend me the courtesy of of taking "me" at my word or you undermine any attempts on my part to reconcile the misadventure and you undermine the value of your own word with your assumptions that "everyone" is full of shit.
I gave you a pass on much of the preceding venom and ad hominem, allowing for your short fuse for which I hold no grudge... is there any point in my stating that I do not dislike you Jazz... or will you persist in assuming that "everyone" is full of shit?