Sieg KX1 & Mach3 won't come out of emergency reset

[JAZZCNC]

Hi LAN,

Yes John Stevenson is John S and that's who I was going to call on your behalf. If you speak to him again Mention Jazz was Kicking off again he'll laugh and call me not nice names which I can't say or they will be deemed OFFENSIVE . . LOL.!!

If you have a Galil card then I'd swap it in a heart beat as Galil is industrial strength Controller and will knock the spots of that AKZ250. Yes I agree you shouldn't have too but sometimes it's just easier to bite the bullet and get cutting reliably. Esp if you have such a quality Card already.!

The next best thing is sort the noise causing the issue. Debounce is a bodge to get you going. Removing the noise is the cure and easy enough done.
For a start check all the Grounds are correct with a Star setup and separate signal wires from Power wires. Often this will cure the problem if it doesn't then you'll maybe after look at other ways. Like Caps across the inputs. Thou to be honest I've never found them to work very well if noise is bad.

To test if it's noise thru the switch then just remove the E-stop and put a jumper across the inputs. If it does it again you'll know it's not the E-stop as it can't be noise on the e-stop line.
Personally I prefer 24V to run trhu my E-stop and controlling a Relay which shuts the machine down. The 5v input signal is then just run thru Relay contacts to inform Mach3 E-stop occured and with a very short wire run you'll never get noise on that input.

[Jess]

[

It just about broke me and then I almost went nuclear. So I just packed up and went inside.

Know the feeling! I'd suggest a nice calming cup of tea but, in the past, I've just ended up angrily drinking tea.

I'm still concerned the estop is a problem and worried about doing a bigger part. Only time will tell I guess.

I'm not sure if it's just how you've explained it, but (ignoring the initial problem which we can probably attribute to the guard switch) there seems to be a pattern:

The machine is running, but then gets itself jammed in e-stop, so you turn everything off, leave it for a bit, then when you come back, it's working again. If so, that sounds suspiciously like it could be an EMI (interference) problem.

The prime suspect for EMI (as always) is the spindle drive board and spindle, so it's probably worth checking if you can reliably get through the motions of a job with the spindle off/driver board disconnected, but not with it running. That I can't see a shielded cable between the spindle driver and the breakout/motion controller does make me particularly suspicious.

If disconnecting the spindle board doesn't fix things up, you'd move on to checking if it was the stepper motors and so forth. It's probably better just to link http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCNoise.html at this point; although, some of it's recommendations are more practical for people making machines from scratch.

BTW, I think your link suggests that your motion control board is powered from your PC, so if it does get in a huff, it's only going to get power cycled when the USB port loses power. There's a tendency for PCs and laptops to sleep, rather than switch off and they often leave their USB ports powered for your convenience during sleep so you can charge your 'phone. (This might explain why it seems to fix itself overnight, because you unplug everything when you give up.)

It would be a massive job and one I shouldn't have to do!

Agreed. You should have been able to unpack it, maybe tram it up a bit, and then be making chips. The attraction of buying a commercial mill is not having to do any of this.

[JAZZCNC]

Cut those bloody tie raps off as well I hate to see unshielded wires bound together, esp if 5V signal wires.

[Lee Roberts]

late,

I noticed you said "shed", what kind of setup would that be? If the "standard" shed is the scenario I'm wondering if there is a possibility of an intermittent damp/moisture/humidity thing going on?

How close are those power lines (red&black, running cross the top of the picture) to the blue wires at the back of the picture, wondering if there is a noise issue in that area of the box, that PSU is right there to, humming away, sorry can't offer anything more :(.

.Me

[lateAtNight]

Guys, I appreciate your comments. Its nice just to be able to post, talk it over, get comments / recommendations. Not many (any?) CNC'ers / machinists around these parts that I know of.

JAZZ, Two things stop me with the Galil... first I really like the fact that, bar the laptop / pc, the mill is self contained and the Galil has a massive breakout box (see attached pic) that I'd have to clumsily fit on the side or something... and then I really would need a PC + monitor. And it would all have to camp out in the shed because a laptop I can handle moving every time but all that lot... no way. Rewiring wouldn't be easy. Over time I could definitely do it. Its just not something I can tackle right now... Got so many little projects I want to finish off. A few of which require parts to be made with the machine! Go back to work on the other side of the country soon...

Jess, Noise from the spindle getting on the the estop line does seem to be one of the major suspects. Esp. when its cutting I can imagine the extra power going through the spindle creates a lot of noise. The estop and the spindle power are of course on separate cables but they run together from the head into guts of the machine. I could be wrong but I don't think either cable is shielded. But surely that would be a major design flaw... and they must have made thousands of these machines?!

Lee... your right about the shed. Its aluminium (had I known more about the thermal dynamics of a metal shed when I bought I would have gone with wood) and its a giant moisture trap at certain times. However given that I have so much of my hard earned in there, I have gone to significant lengths to keep the machine dry & insulated. Trust me, the shed itself is rubbish, but that machine is bone dry... except for all the oil its covered in of course :). Just another reason I don't want a computer / monitor out there. How I envy people with basements!

If anyone does have a shed / moisture problem I can thoroughly recommend Unibonds Aero 360 thingies. Surprisingly effective at sucking the moisture out of the air... reviews on amazon say they are equivalent to having a de humidifier. That and a million layers seem to be keeping the machine well enough.

[lateAtNight]

Guys, I appreciate your comments. Its nice just to be able to post, talk it over, get comments / recommendations. Not many (any?) CNC'ers / machinists around these parts that I know of.

JAZZ, Two things stop me with the Galil... first I really like the fact that, bar the laptop / pc, the mill is self contained and the Galil has a massive breakout box (see attached pic) that I'd have to clumsily fit on the side or something... and then I really would need a PC + monitor. And it would all have to camp out in the shed because a laptop I can handle moving every time but all that lot... no way. Rewiring wouldn't be easy. Over time I could definitely do it. Its just not something I can tackle right now... Got so many little projects I want to finish off. A few of which require parts to be made with the machine! Go back to work on the other side of the country soon...

Jess, Noise from the spindle getting on the the estop line does seem to be one of the major suspects. Esp. when its cutting I can imagine the extra power going through the spindle creates a lot of noise. The estop and the spindle power are of course on separate cables but they run together from the head into guts of the machine. I could be wrong but I don't think either cable is shielded. But surely that would be a major design flaw... and they must have made thousands of these machines?!

Lee... your right about the shed. Its aluminium (had I known more about the thermal dynamics of a metal shed when I bought I would have gone with wood) and its a giant moisture trap at certain times. However given that I have so much of my hard earned in there, I have gone to significant lengths to keep the machine dry & insulated. Trust me, the shed itself is rubbish, but that machine is bone dry... except for all the oil its covered in of course :). Just another reason I don't want a computer / monitor out there. How I envy people with basements!

If anyone does have a shed / moisture problem I can thoroughly recommend Unibonds Aero 360 thingies. Surprisingly effective at sucking the moisture out of the air... reviews on amazon say they are equivalent to having a de humidifier. That and a million layers seem to be keeping the machine well enough.

[JAZZCNC]

JAZZ, Two things stop me with the Galil... first I really like the fact that, bar the laptop / pc, the mill is self contained and the Galil has a massive breakout box (see attached pic) that I'd have to clumsily fit on the side or something... and then I really would need a PC + monitor. And it would all have to camp out in the shed because a laptop I can handle moving every time but all that lot... no way. Rewiring wouldn't be easy. Over time I could definitely do it.

Yes I under stand and you shouldn't have to do it I agree completely. But like I say sometimes you have change to cure for your own sanity.!
Last night I Remembered out of the all the cards I've ever tried or used this was the only USB card that came with ferrite rings on the cable. Which didn't bold well.!! Also I remember it was John S who brought this card to my attention and why I tried it.

The card was actually fitted in a machine and run straight away rather than tested on a bench or in machine of my own. It did what lots of Other USB cards do as in work fine then dropout occasionally for no apparent reason that is obvious. Not E-stop or Limit switch triggers but lost communication thru Locking up.
I can't remember if I used a external 5V supply or not as I seem to think it didn't have the option but I could be wrong. If it did then I would have definatly used separate 5v source as USB is terrible at giving a stable reliable 5v. (Jessy don't even go there.!!)

The card is still in the machine and working. I believe it still does the occasional dropout thing but other than this it's worked ok. The guy who owns machine isn't electrical minded or machine savy so any faults or strange happenings he would call me. It does run from a Desktop machine but last I knew he was talking about getting a Laptop so could take in house. I will ring him later and see if any issues I'm unaware of.!!

As mentioned lower down I don't use 5v thru my limits or home switches as it's too prone to EMF. I also don't rely on the Controller for E-stop and Shut things down thru relays.
So if your machine is wired using 5v direct from board thru long wire run for E-stop and/or limits then I'd look at getting 24V supply and putting a resistor on the input. Or changing to a much safer Relay driven setup.

Again shouldn't have to but hey it's got problems and they need curing. Just because Sieg is a big concern and charges the earth doesn't mean they don't penny pinch or cut corners.!! . . . The lack of shielding clearly shows they do.!!! . .
( If it's any consolation I recently converted both Denford and Boxford machines and they where the same.!! . . .Very poor. Only thing in there favor was they used quality electronics, bespoke and tied to there software but quality and they didn't rely on controller for E-stop)

[Jess]

The estop and the spindle power are of course on separate cables but they run together from the head into guts of the machine. I could be wrong but I don't think either cable is shielded. But surely that would be a major design flaw... and they must have made thousands of these machines?!

That they're next to each other is suspicious. Shielded wires should be fairly obvious - they'd look like little coax cables, and there'd be a screen connected to the ground point.

Regarding it being a design flaw, it's likely an issue of margins and tolerances. Of course, the design should take account of that! There doesn't seem to be a slew of complaints, so, presumably, other Seig KX1s don't have this problem. (Cold comfort I know when your machine is the one that's faulty.)

Now, whilst I love to see the forum fix this, it does strike me that Arc should be the ones fixing this at their expense (or replacing it or refunding your money). Your contract is for a working mill, so they're legally obligated to supply said working mill or otherwise 'make you whole'.

The next thing I'd do is try to come up with a scenario that reliably causes the problem. I know the last thing you want to see right now is probably for your machine to go into e-stop, but this will at least allow you to tell if you've fixed it - or at least if you're seeing an improvement. (Alternatively, if you are putting the problem onto Arc, then you can show them that it doesn't work and easily test if they've fixed it.)

I'd avoid making major changes to the wiring right now, at least if you're hoping Arc might provide some remedy. Whilst JAZZCNC's wiring suggestions - star ground, separating cables etc., - are perfectly good, once you start cutting cable ties and rewiring things you're modifying the machine.

[lateAtNight]

t Arc should be the ones fixing this at their expense (or replacing it or refunding your money). Your contract is for a working mill, so they're legally obligated to supply said working mill or otherwise 'make you whole'.

I have considered asking Arc to make it right. Like I say I've had the mill for a while but only really got down to putting it to use over the last few weeks. I was concerned that they'd use that somehow against me. That and they aren't the ones providing the support. I am covered under UK law for a year right? Worth considering I suppose... I'm planning to do a few parts tomorrow and we'll see how that goes.

I'll check for shielding on the wiring as well.

[Jess]

So, this is my understanding of the law as a layperson; I'm not a lawyer. When I've had trouble, mentioning 'The Sale of Goods Act' and 'Trading Standards' has usually helped, albeit we were talking about significantly less money. I'm also talking strictly as a consumer; if you bought it as a business - or with the appearance that you were a business - different rules apply.

Obviously, if do have trouble with Arc then you may want to speak to someone like Citizen's Advice etc.,

I have considered asking Arc to make it right. Like I say I've had the mill for a while but only really got down to putting it to use over the last few weeks. I was concerned that they'd use that somehow against me.

Certainly, it's easier when it's a recent purchase. There's a period of time where the seller is responsible for showing that the buyer broke it; and after that the onus moves to the buyer. However, given its just been sat on a bench, it seems fairly obvious that you didn't break it. Definitely get in contact ASAP to say that you're still having trouble.

That and they aren't the ones providing the support.

Your contract for a working mill is with Arc. They've just asked you to speak with their subcontractor for support. Even if the subcontractor messes up, liability - as far as you're concerned - remains with Arc. (Arc may be ab

I am covered under UK law for a year right? Worth considering I suppose...

UK law doesn't state a period here; just that to be of satisfactory quality, the goods must last for a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable depends on the goods; a reasonable life for a bio might be a few weeks whilst a washing machine might be 6 years. Seems a >£3000 CNC machine.