Boxford 165 HMC

[chris w]

No all the front switches are not connected the only working switch is the estop but that only knocks off the enable contactor but now I need to include the CS labs into the estop circuit BUT the estop on the machine is 240v which I think would not be ok for the CS labs estop terminals!
i still need to work that one out,
I think 100% control through Mach is ok it offers everything that the machine control panel has to offer but I have a MPG unit plugged into the CS labs which I think is vital to set the machine properly.
when you stated the ridgid tapping is not a really useful option why do we need a reverse on the machine????
is the "direct connection" between CS labs to isolation board going to be a problem because of load on the CS unit??
soooo many questions,

[JAZZCNC]

No all the front switches are not connected the only working switch is the estop but that only knocks off the enable contactor but now I need to include the CS labs into the estop circuit BUT the estop on the machine is 240v which I think would not be ok for the CS labs estop terminals!
i still need to work that one out,

Chris does the Contactor have a NO Aux Contact.? or a Spare contact you can use.? If so then it's simple case of running 0v wire from 24V supply thru this Contact and back to Input (-) on IP-S. Then take (+) from 24V supply to the Input (+).
Now when E-stop occurs and Contactor drops it informs the Controller of the E-stop. It's that simple.!

is the "direct connection" between CS labs to isolation board going to be a problem because of load on the CS unit??
soooo many questions,

If your talking about the 0-10v Ref signal then provided the Lenze is Isolated from Mains Voltage then you won't have any problems.


You say you don't under stand Relays so let me explain they are very simple really. Relay is basicly just switch or number of switches that are turned on/off by electricity.
There is a electromagnetic coil which is connected to the switch or switches, buts lets call them by there proper name Contacts.
Each Contact can be in one of two states when NO power is applied. NO or NC meaning Normally Open or Normally Closed.
When power is applied to the relay Coil each switch Flips state. So NO contact becomes CLOSED and NC becomes OPEN.

The # of contacts on relay are often refered to has POLES when buying so for instance 4PDT or 2PST. 4PDT translates to 4 x sets of contacts that each have 2 states OPEN or CLOSED. DT standing for Double throw.
This means for each contact there are 3 connections. COM, NC & NO. An example of how you would use this type of relay is say for when in E-stop condition you wanted to inform the Control about E-stop and at same time turn on an Alarm light.

So you would run say 24V to the COM connection. Then run a wire from the NO connection to the Controller E-stop (+) INPUT. Take another wire From the NC connection to the (+) side of the Alarm Light.
Now run Power thru your E-stop Button/s to the Relay COILS. This power could be the Same 24V running thru Contacts or any other voltage that matches the COILS rating. ie 5V or 240V

So now When E-stop is Safe ie Not pushed and power is running thru the E-stop circuit the relay turns on. This Flips the Switch states NO becomes Closed and lets power flow to the Controller INPUT informing E-stop is safe. At the same time the NC flips states and Removes power from the Alarm light which turns off.
Hit the E-stop button and contacts flip state. Alarm light see power and lights up and controller see's the INPUT change so E-stops the system.

Now obviously you could have more contacts and have it do all sorts of things like turn Kettle on because the Job is Stuffed and you need a Brew to Chill. . Lol

Relays also come in ST flavors meaning Single Throw. So each Contact only has 2 terminals COM and one State NC or NO.

Hopefully you get the picture and it's clear.

Oh and Contactor is just a Relay with Contacts that handle Higher power.



It's that simple really and in practise you decide which Contact State to use and number needed to do the Job.

[chris w]

ok thanks for keeping it simple jazz the estop is now operational from ground through spare contact to 0v on both the IP-S and the MPG module I then went a step further and put the ground (feed to the contactor) into estop1 on the MPG module and put ESTOP2 to ground as the MPG module ESTOP button opens the circuit then mach 3 knows about it,
but no because as soon as I push the enable the spindle motor spins, so I put the feed to contactor ground not through the MPG module and it works fine yet in the cs labs instructions it shows the ESTOP1 and ESTOP2 are just a switch, am I being simple and missing something?
the MPG is not smooth at all, is that for another thread??
chris.

[JAZZCNC]

I then went a step further and put the ground (feed to the contactor) into estop1 on the MPG module and put ESTOP2 to ground as the MPG module ESTOP button opens the circuit then mach 3 knows about it,
but no because as soon as I push the enable the spindle motor spins, so I put the feed to contactor ground not through the MPG module and it works fine yet in the cs labs instructions it shows the ESTOP1 and ESTOP2 are just a switch, am I being simple and missing something?
the MPG is not smooth at all, is that for another thread??
chris.

No not being simple it is just a switch. Think of it like a relay E1 & E2 are just a contact which are controlled by pins 13 & 25 which are like the coil. In reality it will be a transistor or something like that but principle is the same.

So E1 & E2 just go in series with your main E-stop that drops the Contactors. The control will know then because the Input you run thru the Contactor spare terminal will signal this.
Provided your Main E-stop Circuit is a Latching one then Pushing Enable should have No affect if E-stop is pressed. It shouldn't even spin when Enable is pushed if Mach isn't reset and then when it is still shouldn't spin untill given a M3 command or spindle spin button pressed. So Sounds to me like you still have something wrong on the spindle side.

Or If when you push E-stop then release it your system becomes live again then your not safe. You should have a Reset button that will only allow a Restart when things are correct.

Can't help with the Rough MPG I'm afraid. Are you using a pendent bought with MPG or is it one you made up.? Could be dodgy wiring so encoder signals are wrong or faulty Rotery MPG.?

[chris w]

hello thanks for the information guys the estop on the machine and the mpg unit (CS labs mpg so should be a reliable plugin) are properly functional with the enable push button doing what it should and the spindle behaving itself,
we have progressed quite quickly to say I was completely lost!!
would it be deemed unprofessional to wire the spindle forward relay only and strip out the reverse wiring?
dont get me wrong I would like full functionality out of the machine but for the amount of time it will take me to work out how to wire the reverse without damaging the CS labs unit versus the amount of times I will use m4
is quite an easy desicion but if it really isn't that difficult I do enjoy learning.
uli did you manage to do that spindle wiring sketch at weekend?
jazz where does the latching relay come into play with the spindle wiring as the examples I have seen on how to reverse a motor on the net can be done with 2 relays with the motor wires opposed?
i notice quite a lot of differences between my machine and Ulis machine to say they are only 1 digit apart on the serial number, maybe my machine has had some not so great work done to it in its lifetime......dunno
if you men are getting tired of this then I am sorry cos I don't want this to be a lifetime project I just wanna make stuff and develop while reading other people's questions rather than being the one asking,
any info is all good info,
thanks guys,
chris.

[JAZZCNC]

would it be deemed unprofessional to wire the spindle forward relay only and strip out the reverse wiring?
dont get me wrong I would like full functionality out of the machine but for the amount of time it will take me to work out how to wire the reverse without damaging the CS labs unit versus the amount of times I will use m4
is quite an easy desicion but if it really isn't that difficult I do enjoy learning.

No it's not unprofessional and we are DIY so what's it matter.! But that said it's not difficult to do anyway so really no reason why not to have it.
The main thing is that the Spindle comes to a Complete stop before the Reverse Command executes. Mach3 provides a way for this using CW & CCW Spindle Delay before turning on the relavant output. It's just a case doing a bit of experimenting with timings to how long it takes for spindle to come to complete stop. . . .See pic:

jazz where does the latching relay come into play with the spindle wiring as the examples I have seen on how to reverse a motor on the net can be done with 2 relays with the motor wires opposed?

The Latching Circuit I refered to was the E-stop circuit which has nothing to do with the Spindle Reversing. Only affect on Spindle would be to Turn it off in E-stop condition. The controller would be informed of the E-stop so should Stop spindle starting back up automaticly after E-stop and machine is reset. Not until Spindle Start button or M3/4 command is given should the spindle start up again.

if you men are getting tired of this then I am sorry cos I don't want this to be a lifetime project I just wanna make stuff and develop while reading other people's questions rather than being the one asking,

Ask away Chris I for one don't get tired of answering if can help. The harder or more difficult the question the better really because it makes me think deeper.
Often the Hard part with helping is not the actual problem but working out what someone with less experience is trying to get across. Many times I read some question and start computing solutions only to realise that they are actually meaning a completely different thing to what came across in the question.

[chris w]

Hi guys, I am considering stripping the whole cabinet and fitting new motors and drives and spindle vfd and motor I don't want to be spannering this thing for the rest of my days I wanna make stuff and the amount of time that this machine has absorbed in the last 12 moths is a worry cos it's not finished yet and I face the fact that I am out of my comfort zone with the experimenting of moving wires around and waiting for magic smoke,
i see that zapp are agents for CS labs gear and they are mentioned lots of times in a positive manner, would there be an ideal match to suit the bit that I will keep which is the ip-s.....closed loop, servo or stepper????
if I going to do it it might as well be right, as for the A axis I would really like to make this a full 4th rather than 45 degree would I need to change the mechanics of the drive to minimise backlash......uli you said you wanted to fit a disc brake to the underside of the table, I presume just to keep some "load" on it to reduce backlash?
as always any advice is good,
thanks,
chris.

[JAZZCNC]

Chris I'll help you with this Don't go throwing good money away until your sure it's needed. I'll send you my number if you ring me I'm sure we can get you going easy enough. It's always difficult via forum alone but I've got many people working using the phone and Email. Give me a ring.