CSLAB CSMIO/IP-M 4-axis Ethernet Motion Controller

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks Jazz as always you are the pillar of knowledge here, one follow up though about the contactors, what is the risk of not using them and just have a circuit breaker and/or fuse instead. is it the advantage of having everything powerup through a low voltage signal which would be coming from the controller?

No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!

[Noplace]

No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!

Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though

[Web Goblin]

Using a contactor means that the safety relay can turn off the power to any devices connected to it when an emergency stop case happens. You dont have to run round the machine looking for the plug.
Incidently I thought I had been kicked off of here, the site wouldn't let me login earlier?

[JAZZCNC]

Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though

Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.

[Noplace]

Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.

hehehe don't worry I understand your point but what confused/confusing me is my idea of connecting the safety relay, from what I understood from the documents I read is that I can hook the fault lines of EM806 in series to the safety relay as well as my VFD which has NC points, in that case if any fault happens (EM806 is really good at detecting faults) they should open one of the connections and then all drivers and VFD will stop to work ( the VFD also mentions in its document that I can use one of its relay output contacts to behave like fault line, and the VFD can detect stuff like current overload and such). all of this also in addition to E-stop button which would open the fault line connection as well.

so I thought the power to everything can be on, its just in case of any driver detecting any fault it will open its fault connection and the relay will cease giving signal to all of them.

if my concept is not right please let me know and I guess I will just do the contactors way if required.

[JAZZCNC]

Your talking about different things again. Fault signals do just that and signal faults but you still have to turn the drives and things on in the first place and this requires power to pass thru contacts.

Safe E-stop system should disable power not just disable signals or outputs and Safe E-stop shouldn't allow power Reset if any safety condition isn't met.
What you want to do would mean everything powers up instantly power is turned on at the wall or box switch. Controlled only by fault signals which are not safe.

Fault signals for things like stalled motors or limit trips or even VFD over current, temp etc are not E-stop conditions so just disableing signals or drive outputs to inform Control system and inhibit movemnet is ok but they don't islolate power which is what should happen in an E-stop condition.

Your idea won't work for number of reasons because of how the fault signals on the drives work and isn't safe anyway so I suggest you have re-think.

The Pilz makes it very easy because it has latching system and E-stop circuits built in so just use the contacts to control contactors for high current devices and with the fault signals driving relays etc to inform the control system or inhibit reset etc depending on what you want to protect.

Don't cut corners on safety just for the sake of buying a contactor. Equally don't risk damage to expensive Pilz relays for sake of Contactor and couple of relays.

[Web Goblin]

Maybe this will make it a bit clearer. This is part of my machine drawings. The top one is the safety relay and this brings in the two safety relays in the other picture. The two safety relays control the main power for the drives, vfd and pumps. All the things that I would want to stop if there is an emergency. This does not cut the 24vdc power or the power for the cnc controller or any of the limit switches, homing switches or emergency stop switches
.

[Noplace]

Your talking about different things again. Fault signals do just that and signal faults but you still have to turn the drives and things on in the first place and this requires power to pass thru contacts.

Safe E-stop system should disable power not just disable signals or outputs and Safe E-stop shouldn't allow power Reset if any safety condition isn't met.
What you want to do would mean everything powers up instantly power is turned on at the wall or box switch. Controlled only by fault signals which are not safe.

Fault signals for things like stalled motors or limit trips or even VFD over current, temp etc are not E-stop conditions so just disableing signals or drive outputs to inform Control system and inhibit movemnet is ok but they don't islolate power which is what should happen in an E-stop condition.

Your idea won't work for number of reasons because of how the fault signals on the drives work and isn't safe anyway so I suggest you have re-think.

The Pilz makes it very easy because it has latching system and E-stop circuits built in so just use the contacts to control contactors for high current devices and with the fault signals driving relays etc to inform the control system or inhibit reset etc depending on what you want to protect.

Don't cut corners on safety just for the sake of buying a contactor. Equally don't risk damage to expensive Pilz relays for sake of Contactor and couple of relays.

thank you for clearing it, no worries I will not cut corners as I'm learning from you what needs to be done thats why am asking hehe. if you see my current setup you will cry as there is no safety and just E-Stop connected to BOB which signals mach3 to shut down movement. designing the new panel is challenging but I'm trying

[Tom J]

Hi Guys
Got question regard that module.
So far I only done bench test with basic circuit including:

Panasonic CF-19 Toughbook - win7 64bit
CSMiO-IP-M
Motors Nema 24Hs39-3008D 4.2A 8 wires in Bi-Polar Parraller
Driver DM 542A Longs (1/4 steps, 1/2 holding current)
42VDC PSU - torus trafo.

1. Why voltage doesn't appear in 5V and 24V box?
2. Motor stalls above 1.5m/min (5mm ballscrew pitch, gear ratio motor20/18screw, 1/4 miocrostep - about 177 steps/rev)
I had the same thing with nema 23 motors on bench but in machine they reach 5.1m/min - scratching my head why?
Max motor speed 1500mm/min (free spinning)