Thor, or should that be Zeus?

[Boyan Silyavski]

Well you better get ready for dissappointment if you think 4Kw spindle is going to let you cut at 10mtr/min with any DOC.! There's Reason why Industrial Strength VMC's have 15-20Hp spindles.

This is more for the ability to cut at lower spindle speeds the metals and have there enough power, and i agree with that, but i wonder then if the small mill head rated 10 000rpm, BT30 spindle coupled with servo motor would not do the job better here? I can not remember if there was 10 000rpm variant, cause typically it was 6000rpm. Or just have to be ordered with other bearings.

That could change the design so should be clear before hand. But will give ability to tool change, and hard tap. Cause at the end of the day, why so fast machine if then you will loose time changing tools.

I read a study that said most time in production was spend changing tools, and we are talking a bout machines with tool changers. So obviously not only a tool changer, but a fast one is better.

But i like to say, if the purpose is not clear, the result could be mediocre

[Davek0974]

My thoughts too, I do spend more time changing tools on my manual mill than cutting, also setting up etc. I just am not sure of the design here, especially with only 4Hp on the spindle, still limited to light cuts at average speeds, there is a reason large mills weighing tons have 20-30-40Hp spindle motors and only move at reasonable speeds.

[Chaz]

My thoughts too, I do spend more time changing tools on my manual mill than cutting, also setting up etc. I just am not sure of the design here, especially with only 4Hp on the spindle, still limited to light cuts at average speeds, there is a reason large mills weighing tons have 20-30-40Hp spindle motors and only move at reasonable speeds.

Understood. Perhaps 'all' Ill get is a very sturdy accurate 'average' machine. I cant fit a 20 HP spindle. The point here was to prove a few points.

1. How much better will something be with higher end kit?
2. The kit I have bought wasnt cheap, but it was not new, so I did not pay full price.
3. I want to see the 'max' of what can be done using single phase power.
4. I like playing around, this is my fun that detracts from a fairly tough day job :-)

Thanks

[Davek0974]

Understood. Perhaps 'all' Ill get is a very sturdy accurate 'average' machine. I cant fit a 20 HP spindle. The point here was to prove a few points.

1. How much better will something be with higher end kit?
2. The kit I have bought wasnt cheap, but it was not new, so I did not pay full price.
3. I want to see the 'max' of what can be done using single phase power.
4. I like playing around, this is my fun that detracts from a fairly tough day job :-)

Thanks

That is the important bit i think, you will end up with a machine that has capabilities beyond the average frame-build unit, but most likely not something that can rip through metal like chocolate;)

I have a feeling resonance and vibration will not be an issue:)

[JAZZCNC]

The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

[Chaz]

The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

All very true. The smallest Datrons cost £35K. Ill be happy to get anywhere near the performance as Ill not be spending near this kinda money.

[Chaz]

The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

[Boyan Silyavski]

Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

Charl, i think you are missing the point. Depends on what you want to do exactly with the machine, you construct it around that idea. So thats what you should concentrate on, nbot making the best machine possible.

But i think Dean had already shown what he will do, same as what i would do- buy me a big beast VMC and retrofit.

[JAZZCNC]

All very true. The smallest Datrons cost £35K. Ill be happy to get anywhere near the performance as Ill not be spending near this kinda money.

Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

I'd Carry on and use them but I'd make sure the whole machined was matched and balanaced. This was my point really.! The Spindle will be woe fully pathetic in comparison to rest of machine.

The other point i'd like to make because I see it happening more and more is that BIGGER isn't always better.? Often it makes for poorer performing machine.!
The WHOLE machine must use balanced components otherwise it's wasted.!

In your case you have Rails and Ballscrews that you'd likely see on VMC's 4 times the size of what you have planned. Those same machines would be using Servos's matched to the screws etc and running spindles in the 15-20HP area. Theses machines would be built like this because they are intended to cut steels or Hard allloys with high MRR.
While they will equaly cut soft materials there main advantage would be they can use much larger tooling for higher MRR when roughing etc.
For 3D and general machining of softer alloys you wouldn't buy that machine because you'd be paying lot of money for Strength and componets which are not required for aluminium.

Machines like Datrons which are designed cut soft alloys while still using quality componets and matched components wouldn't use the size of linear rails and ballscrews you have bought because it would be harder or much more expensive to make them reach the accelrations and feeds required. For there intended purpose they will also more than likely beat a large VMC in cycle times.

[Chaz]

This is more for the ability to cut at lower spindle speeds the metals and have there enough power, and i agree with that, but i wonder then if the small mill head rated 10 000rpm, BT30 spindle coupled with servo motor would not do the job better here? I can not remember if there was 10 000rpm variant, cause typically it was 6000rpm. Or just have to be ordered with other bearings.

That could change the design so should be clear before hand. But will give ability to tool change, and hard tap. Cause at the end of the day, why so fast machine if then you will loose time changing tools.

I read a study that said most time in production was spend changing tools, and we are talking a bout machines with tool changers. So obviously not only a tool changer, but a fast one is better.

But i like to say, if the purpose is not clear, the result could be mediocre

Agreed. The current idea was a 4KW Chinese (or better) spindle.

Three points. This design is not final, could look at changing it.

Second point, It is possible to do a tool changer directly into a non geared spindle setup (like the Datron tool change setup).

Lastly, If I am doing masses of small things, like a pallet of 10 things, using the same tool for an extended period of time and then changing will have less time impact. Of course, doing a 1 off with 5 changes will struggle.

The Tormach setup is interesting, no real ATC however has the drawbar, if you manage your tools properly (heights preset etc) doing a manual change during cycles is not too bad.

But please keep the feedback coming, this is useful.