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Ahh thanks for clearing that up, it was me being daft!!! I understand it now.
Do you by any chance know if he also does some of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ball-Nut-M...c=1&rmvSB=true
Might be easier getting them off of him as i'm paying for the shipping anyways.
When you ask him for the quote include a picture of the ball nut mounting.Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
But before you order have you designed the frame that you are going to mount it all on as you might need different mountings than those.
It usually only takes about 10 days to get the stuff from Fred.
Clive - Thanks for the advice. Not sure what other types of mountings are available (other than the ones Chai does). Only place I see this being a concern is possibly on the Z-Axis where I might end up being short for space. I drew the below ball nut supports as reference (not to scale) and was planning on correcting the sizes when I received/measured the components:
Attachment 17504Attachment 17505Attachment 17506
Also, adjusted the ball screw F dimension and during checking noticed that the Y-Axis needed shifting towards the right to line up with the motor:
Attachment 17507
I have been doing some shopping around for quotes and would like some advice please.
For the linear components the following is what I got back:
Chai = $738 = £510
Fred = $958 = £663
FYI - Local Supplier = >£3,000!!!
The shorter carriages were £100 less in total if I went for them.
Ideally it would be Chai with the shorter carriages but two disadvantages seem to be, hes using a different brand of rails/blocks and also, i'm not sure if the shorter carriages will be enough for possible long term aluminium work. What do you guys think please?
Also, does £140 sound like a good deal for all the aluminium and steel plates (gantry sides, full z axis, bearing supports, spacers, etc)?
comparing Hiwin to Chinese rails is like apples to oranges. Fred also has the Chinese rails by the way and of course they are cheaper. If you are doubting £100 in a build of 2500, then definitely go with the cheaper.
I am saying this cause if you really want to cut aluminum when you pay 500 for a plate you will forget the 100 you ar doubting now.
140 sounds a good deal if they are precut. Depends though, i buy pre-cut aluminum plates any thickness at 5euro/kg +vat here in Spain. And steel at 1eur/kg but i have the means to cut it.
Pay the £100 extra and get Hi-win from Fred Lee. Also don't need long carriages to cut aluminium the short ones work fine. I've got some Hi-win rails carriages (short) here that where fitted to my old router which cut nothing but aluminium for 5-6yrs and they are still good day fitted and they where second hand then.!!Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
How longs a piece of string.? How can anyone tell you that without knowing dimensions and amount of aluminium.?Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
Thanks Dean, went for the shorter ones and placed the order with Fred yesterday, he was really helpful with everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Should have the parts for the end of the month as they are on their holidays currently.
Was quoted the following for it all to be cut:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Aluminium (All 20mm Thick Plates):
Qty 2 – 225 x 60 @ £11.50 each
Qty 1 – 200 x 300 @ £26.15 each
Qty 1 – 200 x 250 @ £19.50 each
Qty 1 – 200 x 140 @ £15.75 each
Qty 1 – 200 x 60 @ £10.00 each
Qty 4 – 30 x 70 @ £6.25 each
Steel Plate:
Qty 2 – 230 x 300 x 10 @ £6.30 each
Does this look ok?
Little on the expensive side if just cut pieces. It would all come out of piece less than 500 x 500 and thats allowing for cutting. If machined with holes etc then yes it's cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
If just cut pieces of aluminium then Aluminium warehouse are cheaper. But Often worth asking local engineer for good supplier. My supplier doesn't deliver down your way but to give an idea i would get all that for just half what your being asked and that would be Ground cast Machine plate.
Just for reference, these are from Aluminium warehouse, last week....
2 Aluminium Plate: EcoCast - 20.0 mm - 550mm x 242mm £55.80 £111.60 1 Aluminium Plate: EcoCast - 15.0 mm - 400mm x 160mm £20.29 £20.29 1 Aluminium Plate: EcoCast - 15.0 mm - 320mm x 160mm £16.26 £16.26 1 Aluminium Plate: EcoCast - 15.0 mm - 500mm x 160mm £25.33 £25.33 2 Aluminium Plate: 6082 T651 - 10.0 mm - 471mm x 150mm £10.85 £21.70 1 Aluminium Flat Bar - Metric Sizes (6082T6) 80 mm x 10 mm - 2000 mm £22.01 £22.01
Is there a better place to go??
Dean - Thanks for the advice and yeah, that was just for cut aluminium with no holes/profiles, etc.
Damn, almost half the price...that's cheap! Will ask around locally and see if I can find someone decent. Is there anything I should ask for specifically when requesting quotes for this? I see people go with EcoCast from Aluminium Warehouse, I don't know if many locals would do this so would I just ask for Ground Cast Aluminium Machine Plate? Is there any grade or reference I need to mention?
Davek - Thanks for the reference prices.
I bought Ecocast from Aluminium Warehouse but subsequently I've been told about MIC6 tooling plate which is sold by Blackburns - branches around the country. Might be worth checking for a comparison.
Tooling plate is what you want to ask for. Like Neale says it's often called Mic6.
Cheers Neale & Dean for the advice, will search around for this.
I am guessing its going to be the same case with the box section also (local supplier being cheaper than online) so will search around for this also. To confirm is it just bog standard mild steel box section or is a specific grade recommended?
With a 4mm wall the gantry box section and side plates alone weigh 20kg (no motors, no Z axis, no ball screw, no spindle, etc) will the 6.1Nm Nema 34 @ 70V with AM882 drives previously recommended handle this ok with good enough speeds for both aluminum and some wood work?
Yes just mild steel boxsection nothing special. Don't worry 20Kg is nothing you'll be ok upto 80-90kg.
Thanks Dean and wow 90kg...I massively underestimated how powerful these things are.
Any chance you have any reference costs for 100x50x4 and 50x50x4 mild steel box section? Will be buying in standard lengths and cutting it myself.
Yes don't underestimate these little things when attached to ballscrews. The mechanical advantage the screws give is massive, it will snap your arm like carrot and carry on like it never happened.!!Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
It's been while since bought any steel but last time I paid about £35 for 7.5mtr lengths 50x50x4. If you work on just less than double that for 100x50 you'll be close.
Dean, steel is right down in price now with all the dumping from China. Brundle's are about the cheapest I've found http://www.fhbrundle.co.uk/products/..._6m_Grade_S235 £23.54 + del + vat
UK delivery on orders less than £150 is just a tenner.
Mike :)
Ye just looked and I paid £31.50 inc vat and that's delivered but it is only in next village so not million miles away.Quote:
Originally Posted by longy
Ahh, i'm gonna have to get used to keeping a finger on the emergency stop :black_eyed:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Cheers for the help guys, will search around locally for suppliers but don't think many will beat the supplier Mike recommended.
Noticed that I might have some difficulty cutting the motor mount slot accurately on the gantry side, so made it a separate adjustable support plate allowing for the Y axis ball screw to sit more central, more adjustment and lets me get started on welding the gantry before getting access to a mill :nevreness:
Attachment 17667Attachment 17669Attachment 17670Attachment 17671Attachment 17672Attachment 17673
I am going to start welding soon and have next to no experience with this so hope you guys can keep me right:
Attachment 17674Attachment 17675
1. Whats the best way of handeling this, tack up the full frame whilst checking squareness and then weld up fully when happy or do it all in sections?
2. I read on here that short runs are the way to go. Would a 50mm single run along one side of the 50x50 box section be ok or do I do this in two separate runs (25mm)?
3. Are there any parts of the frame I could stitch weld? Maybe the x axis rail support and all of the gantry/side plates? If so, whats the typical size of weld and gap between stitches?
4. Any tips on this/recommended welder settings?
Mig? Arc? Tig? What sort of welding?
Yes, always tack up first, when choosing where to weld, always think of contraction - the two sides of whatever you weld WILL be drawn together as the weld cools, no two ways about it, it will happen.
On a box frame I would tack up and check all square, then weld the inside 90 deg angle on opposing corners first. Next I would do the outside edges followed by the two faces. Welding the inner/outer sides first should help resist the tendency of the frame to buckle if the faces are welded first.
Test your settings well on scraps first.
Stitch welding is fine, in the right place - if you were welding a plate to the side of a box structure or maybe a corner fillet plate inside the legs, I would stitch, maybe 1" runs. For something like box section legs then seam welding is in.
Think of the stresses the part will encounter, it will help decide how to weld it.
Thanks Davek, I will be using a Mig welder for this. Should have the steel in this week and welding started this weekend.
Will tack up the entire frame and gantry assembly first and check if its all square, once OK I will fully weld/stitch where needed whilst baring in mind contraction.
Is epoxy leveling recommended for a build this size?
The chances of it being square when done are slim, treat it as sections and concentrate on getting each section as perfect as possible, whatever method you use there should be a method of tweaking the fit later - my plasma table is 1500 square, it is made up of two side frames bolted together with cross-tubes - i could shim the joints as needed which wasn't in the end but handy still.
The plasma was built in 2mm box section but carefully braced where needed to gain rigidity. I used about 21v / 140A and 0.8mm wire with a tri-mix gas (hobbyweld5) you need to get hot and fast, don't run the power low because it might warp.
Cant help with epoxy, never used it I'm afraid.
Hi guys, came home to find that the linear components had arrived today!! Woohoo :yahoo:
Attachment 17739Attachment 17740Attachment 17741Attachment 17742Attachment 17743
Seems to be great quality and Fred was a great help, excellent service and I understand now what you all mean by him being a great guy. Will keep these to a side until I get the epoxy and aluminium sorted. Blackburns offered 5754 as the nearest grade to MIC6 and quoted me £85 for 500 x 500 x 20 plate, is 5754 a suitable grade?
Also, steel arrived earlier this week so will be welding this weekend and hopefully have a frame/gantry setup soon.
Steel box section and plate had arrived earlier on in the week:
Attachment 17758Attachment 17757
Ended up buying a tungsten carbide blade for £80 to cut this as 5 of the 6 local suppliers I visited advised that the machine had a "non-standard" 25.4mm shaft.
Seemed to work fine the first day but when trying to cut the box section the next day, it seemed to require a lot more time/force, I think I may be cutting too fast and wearing out the blade.
Attachment 17759
Ended up with a bit extra 100x50 section and too little 50x50 section, I underestimated how much box section it would require and assumed I had more than enough at 7.5m of each. Guess its true what they say about assuming!! Requested price for 1m more of each and changed the design slightly to use the larger box section for the horizontal bracing:
Attachment 17760
Other than the two sections I am ordering, all box section has been cut, but unsure if some of it is still good as I think maybe 3 sections (bed supports and gantry box section) are 3-5mm shorter than what I needed, will this be OK filling up with weld?
Attachment 17761
Was hoping to have it all welded up this week but ended up being a slow start with the few hick ups pushing things back a week :dread:
All in all, it was a good experience and even though I had some problems, I enjoyed it and learnt a lot of new things :fat:
Some questions I hope you guys could help me with please:
- From what I understand 5754 aluminium is the grade but if specified as tooling plate, would this be OK for use on the Z-Axis without having to face it off?
- As this machine will be moved 3 times (welded in workshop, epoxy leveled in a smaller room for heating and installed in a shed) is it worth welding some adjustable feet to the legs?
Hi
I don't think you will be able to bridge 5mm with weld, if you had say five joints you could maybe bridge 1mm on each, better to make the frame fit what you have now, or maybe weld in a 5mm spacer plate somewhere. Done properly this could work.
Yes machined aluminium tooling plate is very good and ideal to use as-is.
Yes, fit heavy adjustable feet, always useful, but not the weedy ones with M8 threads ;)
You'll be putting a tremendous amount of heat into the steel if you try to fill it. Why don't you do as Dave says and put a spacer, or cut a bit more off and weld a plate onto each end?Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
Quote:
Some questions I hope you guys could help me with please:
- From what I understand 5754 aluminium is the grade but if specified as tooling plate, would this be OK for use on the Z-Axis without having to face it off?
Definately, M12 are the ones to go for.
- Yes tooling plate is the thing to go for, needs no surfacing.
Quote:- As this machine will be moved 3 times (welded in workshop, epoxy leveled in a smaller room for heating and installed in a shed) is it worth welding some adjustable feet to the legs?
I was looking at your design just now and can see a potential problem for you mounting your ballscrew nuts on the longest axis (X or Y depending on what you call it!!). You've got them bolted from the back, how are you going to tighten them after adjusting them when fitting the ballscrews? You might also want to do the same for the gantry one as although you might be able to get to it from the top there will be a pulley in the way. I did exactly the same thing and had to change my ball nut housings so you can bolt from the outside, just a thought :wink:
Thanks guys, will get some adjustable feet sorted (>=M12) and also cut out some 50x50x10mm steel plate to weld to the frame legs for this. Will also make adjustments where I can to reduce the 5mm gap on the steel box section.
njhussey - Thanks for spotting that. The clearance behind the plate is 10mm, think I could get away with using hex heads and tightening them up with a spanner?
Attachment 17769Attachment 17768
Been a nightmare finding a local supplier that does box section without a 7.5mtr minimum order charge, but got one eventually who can do me some off cuts at a 3mm wall for a good deal.
Will the 3mm wall thickness box section be OK for the bed support beams and horizontal supports shown below in green? Will it also be OK to weld?
Attachment 17786
The main problem apart from resonance with 3mm box is that it is not quite thick enough to tap 4mm or 5mm would be a better option. If it is just for the green bits then it is probably OKQuote:
Originally Posted by examorph
3mm is ok, if size is 80x80 or 100x100. I wouldn't use it for smaller than that.
No problem with tapping and screwing 3mm, just have to be careful and drill holes using a guide so they are true 90degree square to profile.
6mm bolt in 3mm I beg to differ its right on the edge and suppose he wants to tap 8mm :whistle:Quote:
No problem with tapping and screwing 3mm, just have to be careful and drill holes using a guide so they are true 90degree square to profile
Yep, I would not tap past 3 or 4mm into a 3mm beam, just not enough thread engagement.
Thanks guys, to confirm, it's just the green bits in the last post its being used for (2x bed supports and some braces).
Only place it needs to be tapped is on the bed supports, so that I can bolt down the ply wood bed onto there. Any options for this with the 3mm box section? Maybe drill through and use a nut/bolt setup?
You don't say what size bolts you want to use. If you drill through the box without a spacer in the box you have the chance of squashing the box of course you could use self tappers.:thumsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by examorph
If the bolts are near the ends of the tubes, get in there first and weld in a reinforcement plate - a lump of 6mm etc welded in from the end would work.
If not then there are very few options really, you could drill a larger hole opposite the bolts so you can pass a socket and nut through to the front but that will only give you strength of the front 3mm section on the bolt, i doubt the hole will make any difference to the beam strength.
And how about using inserts? Then you dont have to worry about wall thickness.
Išsiųsta naudojantis SM-G900F Tapatalk 4 Lt
Or do what EddyCurrent did and glue in a strip of 6mm flat and drill and tap that...
Thanks for the advice guys, I ended up changing the arrangement slightly by only making the rear bed support from 3mm box, all other 4 (including front) are 4mm. So there should be enough box section to bolt the bed onto and will leave the back 3mm section as a support.
Spent half the day cutting/grinding more of the box section and the rest of the day, failing at welding :frown: Some horror shows for you below:
1st weld on frame:
Attachment 17844
:hopelessness: thinking of cutting this off and starting again. It was over two runs, had let it cool down after doing a bit
Few more welds after this:
Attachment 17838Attachment 17839Attachment 17840Attachment 17841Attachment 17843
Ended up grinding it down and squaring it up many times before I got anything close to square. Ended up with the below, plan is to do both sides and then join them with the sections in between.
Attachment 17842
Was jumping from one side of the frame to the other when welding and did not go back to weld the opposite face until I could touch it again, hopefully this is ok.
Settings for the mig were 2 Volts and 3 for the speed.
Before I continue welding/assembling tomorrow, could you guys please help me with a few questions:
- Is it OK to go back over welds to fill in the gaps, if any?
- Any recommendations on getting into the tighter angles for welding?
- I ended up running 100mm constant welds down the side of the 100x50 box section, should I be splitting this into two runs. 50mm at a time and wait for cooling before going again?
- From the images shown, does the amount of "overlap" on each side of the weld look like its enough? I was worrying as I only really concentrated on filling the gap and wasnt sure if I needed to drag the weld over each face enough to properly join the two sections.