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Swings & roundabouts i suppose :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
In terms of getting going quickly and ease of use, it's a winner.
However if building your own you will almost certainly end up with a better machine.
For the money paid I'm very happy with it, but it's definately built with parts supplied by the lowest bidder :greedy_dollars:
Does this look like a good controller? 32 bit with screen and replaceable drives
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Motherboar...EAAOSwpHFZaYj9
What firmware is it supposed to use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
If you want a solution like that i am personally using MKS products, the MKS SBase and MKS TFT32. The S Base is a smoothieboard clone which obviously uses smoothieware. The TFT32 is a host controller and can also be fitted a Wi-Fi addon, smoothieware also has a web interface if you wanted to connect to it via ethernet.
Thanks
Alex
The firmware for this can be found hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
https://github.com/St3dPrinter/Marlin4ST
Can't view that very well on my phone, I didn't think Marlin had been ported to 32bit yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertboy
Alex
Looks like a a really good option as its ARM processor and can run Marlin but I cant find anybody using it or support.Quote:
Is the smoothie a standalone or can I use a pi to controll it? looks like hard work to set up the smoothie tho.Quote:
If you want a solution like that i am personally using MKS products, the MKS SBase and MKS TFT32. The S Base is a smoothieboard clone which obviously uses smoothieware. The TFT32 is a host controller and can also be fitted a Wi-Fi addon, smoothieware also has a web interface if you wanted to connect to it via ethernet.
Smoothieware has a reasonably well commented text config file on the SD card which you simply edit in a text editor on your PC then reboot the smoothie.
That makes smoothieware even simpler to tweak than Marlin on an Arduino, which again is editing a text config file but then compiling and uploading from the Arduino development environment - that took me a few hours to work out and complete from scratch when I swapped to higher micro-stepping drivers and needed a higher hot end max temp ;-)
Smoothie can be independent or host controlled, depending on what LCD / TFT controller you want to use with it; i believe it can be operated from octoprint, it does have its own Web Interface to be used with Ethernet, never used it so can't comment on how well it works.
Config is pretty simple, educating yourself on the variables within the config file can be pretty steep, the documentation on their wiki is very complete, but some of it is confusing to read, not all variables come in the config file as standard, you have to add some of the uncommon ones in yourself, setting up a basic 3D Printer config is easy though. When you download the firmware it has various template files setup already.
When you want to update the firmware you keep your config and just copy the firmware file to the SD and thats it job done, not like Marlin where they release a new RC Version, change half the variables and their names so you have to reconfigure the whole firmware again.
The SBase is a great clone i am using several of them already, had no problems what so ever, if you want to use the TFT32 touch panel controller, bear in mind that it is classed as a host controller, it has its own firmware and you cant control the SBase from other devices (PC) whilst using the TFT.
There are some other 32 bit controllers around(Re-ARM, RAADS etc) trouble is none of them support common 32bit firmware, Smoothie has been 32Bit from day one, it's not being "ported" to work with 32Bit, and i believe the motion algorithms it uses are some of the best.
Marlin is very good, i use it on one of printers that has a RAMPS controller (an old gMAx 1.5), but now half of their dev team has moved on to trying to port it to 32bit, im not sure how well each branch of the firmware is progressing because i dont really follow it anymore.
Also worth mentioning, do you really NEED a 32bit controller? I only use 32bit because my printers are driven by ballscrews and the steps per mm is higher than using belts, so performance wasnt great for me until i went 32bit. If you want to use ballscrews or build fast Delta Printer i would stick to Ramps or similar, Mega cheap and very easy to setup.
The only gripe i have with Smoothieware is that the guys who write are, for lack of better words - arrogant bastards, how dare you ask for help or suggest changes LOL
Thanks
Alex
Aren't there some new smoothie board options coming out soonish?
I haven't looked into it for a while but was considering one of the v2 boards for my own-design machine, hoping they will be around by the time I get to actually build it.
I jumped in and contributed a little bit of code on Smoothie and thought they were very helpful, especially as I was a C++ newbie.
I think V2 has been on the cards for quite a while so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Im coming to that conclusion and may just get a cheap mega/ramps set up to start with while I learn. the belt drives I'm using are from a vinyl plotter and are geared so lookes like I will have plenty of resolution (20mm/200=0.1mm with no microstepping)Quote:
Also worth mentioning, do you really NEED a 32bit controller? I only use 32bit because my printers are driven by ballscrews and the steps per mm is higher than using belts, so performance wasnt great for me until i went 32bit. If you want to use ballscrews or build fast Delta Printer i would stick to Ramps or similar, Mega cheap and very easy to setup.
I do want to be able to print small high detailed parts tho.
Other than the fact that i can use a 1/32 mircostepping on the swappable boards is there any advantage of going with the soldered drives limited to 1/16th?
Yes, if something dies you get the pleasure of soldering to fix it ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
If you want high resolution, you can still use TMC2100 stepper drivers, expensive compared to the more common drivers used on a RAMPS but can provide upto 1/256 microstepping iirc, operate almost silently too.
Thanks
Alex
EDIT: Although DRV8825's still provide excellent performance and resolution.
Microstepping does not improve resolution. Due to stiction/friction in the system you can only guarantee positional accuracy to within 1 full step, regardless of the number of microsteps.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
When microstepping, the simplest way to describe how the motor's rotor is being held, is opposing coils are pushing or pulling against each other and holding the rotor like it's being pushed/pulled by a couple springs. Then depending on the position of the rotor relative to the cogging, you've effectively got another spring trying to push the rotor either way. And that's before you allow for any stiction/friction affecting the forces.
The only real benefit microstepping has is it improves how smoothly a stepper motor rotates at low speed. Once you get above a certain speed, it has no benefit which is where good quality drives will gradually reduce output stepping to full step mode as motor speed increases. Good drives will also let you adjust the point at which that happens, as it helps avoid motor stalling due to resonance between the stepping speed, motor cogging, and load.
So you are saying that if the transmission was provided by a ballscrew with a 16mm Pitch, at 1 to 1 stepping - that i would have the same resolution as if i was using 1/32 microstepping.
Thanks
Alex
1/256 microstepping sounds totally pointless. Even 1/32 sounds too much to my ears. I run my CNC with 1/10 microstepping and I think that's more than enough for both speed and smoothness.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
As far as I know, there is no ball screw with 16mm pitch, unless it is very large in diameter. Even 10mm pitch is normally 20-25mm in diameter and is very heavy. Nothing you can run with NEMA17 motors, which are common in 3D printers. My CNC is using 1605 ball screws, which means it is 16mm in diameter and has 5mm pitch.
I think if I build a 3D printer I will use dual ball screws (probably 1004) on the Z with one NEMA23 and belt connecting the two screws. For X and Y I will use direct belt drive.
I'm sorry but you could not be further from the truth, 1/256 microstepping is widely used in the 3D Printing sector, mostly for improved quality and almost silent operation (Mainly with Delta Printers), you think people want to listen to their printer go for 40 hours when its in the next room, making a noise when you're trying to sleep? The needs for a 3D Printer are totally separate from a Router regardless of how similar they actually are.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
Well my printer uses a SFU1616 ballscrew on both the X & Y and a SFU1204 on the Z Axis, the X Axis is driven by a 1/32 microstepped Nema17, DRV8825 driver.
Attachment 22487
A belt is fine for most applications, but if you printing engineering plastics where the Bed Temperature needs to be 120c+ you will soon see they stretch and deform from the heat, screws are also far more robust.
Thanks
Alex
Re-reading what I wrote, I should of used accuracy instead of resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
You can have as much resolution as you want, but you still can't guarantee accuracy. I'm aware 3D printers will have less stiction than a typical CNC, but the same problem will still be there. Apply a bit load to the screw, or even try twisting it by hand, and unless you have a system with next to zero friction, it won't return to the exact position.
However with a 3D printer, you should get good repeatability, as the load is pretty constant. It's not like a typical CNC machine where you'll have a cutter pushing/pulling things away from where you want them.
The best way to see how much accuracy you do, or don't gain, would be to fit a high resolution encoder to a stepper, and see how even the encoder pulses are compared with the pulse train at slow speed. Once things are moving inertia will help smooth things out, and drivers will typically reduce the output microstepping anyway.
It's a bit like those who say a 10'000 count servo on a directly driven 5mm pitch screw has a resolution of 5 microns. In reality a 10'000 line servo is only likely to hold position within 20 counts with a pretty good tune, so your realistic accuracy is 0.01mm.
It's worth mentioning, that more advanced microstepping drives, will still microstep the output, even if you are using full step input. Without microstepping the output, you get rough movement at low speed.
Sound is down to a mix of the switching frequency of the drive, and the sound of the motors physically moving/cogging. Get something that switches above 20KHz, you're not likely to hear any buzzing/humming, but you'll still get the noise from the motors above a few RPM (6RPM if my calculation is correct assuming a typical 200 step motor and a lower hearing frequency of 20Hz - to get 20 steps a second, you need 20*60 = 1200 steps per minute, divided by 200 steps/rev to give 6RPM)
Now that makes perfect sense to me, thanks for explaining it i have learnt from your post, you obviously have a much higher understanding than me in general about the technology involved. I think the TMC2100 can take a 1/16 input, and re-pulse (is that even a word?) it to 1/256, but in a way that you still get the 1/16 resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by m_c
I believe the "Silent Mode" the TMC2100's provide is only really suitable for smaller printers / Delta Printers, and don't handle higher accelerations well, but just for context this is a good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNAHOOolHWw
Thanks
Alex
It's silent when it is hardly moving. No wonder it must run 40 hours to make anything... and when it is not in silent mode the high pitch noise is unbearable, at least for my ears. Also, didn't you just dismissed belt drive?? I can see a belt in that video and that is very common in 3D printers. I also don't think heat is a problem for the belt. You know that there are different qualities, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
It was moving at 10mm/s because that is the loudest it is going to be causing the most vibrations, are you saying you preferred the noisier DRV8825 compared to the TMC2100?
You are completely missing the point, that video was only intended to display the noise difference between the two drivers, nothing else. Yes i did dismiss belt driven printers for specific applications, you dismissed Ballscrews for all 3D Printers but actually they are required for specific applications - as i stated before, if you are printing in materials such as Nylon or Polycarbonate, you need to have a bed temperature of 120c+, and almost certainly need the printer in an enclosure to maintain the correct ambient temperature.
Now if you try and print a large object, where the first layers are going to be printed very slowly, the toolhead and the belts connected to it would be exposed to high ambient temperatures from the Heatbed, these will cause standard rubber belts to distort, i've seen it happen. Maybe you could get some steel belts or whatever, but whats the point when ballscrews are so cheap and offer far superior performance.
Look im sorry, but go and do some research, LARGE 3D Printers, depending on their architecture, will print at an acceptable quality from 40 - 60mm/s. Now if im printing a full size object on my printer (400 x 400 x 400mm), at a high resoluton maybe 150 - 250microns it will take 40+ Hours, thats standard - not a big deal.
For just one example, check out this video, i have set it to start just before he tells you how long it took to print - Just under 100 Hours.
https://youtu.be/OTXPU2P-ElE?t=3m58s
Thanks
Alex
I've got to admit, people who claim microstepping increases accuracy, are one of my pet hates.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
The term you're probably looking for is gearing or scaling. With modern drives, there's a lot of internal scaling going on. The input simply tells the drive the distance you want the motor to move, be that a 256th microstep, or a full step. The drive then takes that, and runs it through however many switching phases it takes to move to that position, which in itself will depend on the speed things are moving at, as once you increase speed, the benefits of microstepping diminish, so the number of switching phases is usually reduced to ensure maximum motor performance (often called morphing).
Thanks for all the good input. I was all set to build one and then a Wanhao D5 mini came along at the right price so Im now the proud owner of this little beast.Attachment 22494
also has the heated glass bed and some PLA+ to play with. Should be up and running soon.
Thanks Again.
Hi I have a Cubex trio 3d printer, triple extruder ideal if you want to use dissolvable filament for support material when printing complex parts. Very easy to use comes with some material & and tools to get you started. Good condition. £400
Attachment 22534
Of course I'd prefer a silent driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
That's nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
Which part of that sentence was not clear? The only thing which is wrong there is that I meant 1204 ball screws. I also said that there are different quality of belts on the market, not necessary steel belts, but also not need to buy the cheapest rubber band, which of course will cause problems, not only because of heat but also stretching. Regardless of which I did NOT dismiss ball screws for 3D printers, I said thet I THINK I'd use belt (not said rubber belt!!!). Whatever will be is written in the starts right now. I will probably only use my CNC to start with and then decide if I want to build one at all, or if I just use my CNC for 3D printing occasionally. I will definitely not print large parts or parts which takes 40+ h to print.Quote:
Originally Posted by What I said was:
OKQuote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
I don't plan to start and industry... so it is not relevant for me and don't have time to watch, and I believe most DIY 3D printer builders/users never print anything that takes 100 hours and never use or build a LARGE 3D printer anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
Cool. Have you printed anything? Are you happy with it? What's your impressions so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
Quality is NOT improved if you are micro stepping a stepper motor at 1/256, that is a total misunderstanding. Also, you don't need to microstep at 1/256 to make it silent and even running, that largely depends on the quality of the driver, as well as the mechanical quality of the printer or router.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
OK, so I was wrong, there exists 1616 ball screws. Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea to use them because the 16mm pitch is just too much in my opinion. I would prefer something with MUCH less pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
I've been printing some Nylon parts with my Factory 3D Prusa i3 clone kit ;-)
This is my PLA part cooling duct with a 40mm fan.
Attachment 22536
- Nick
Yes lots of failures but I guess its a learning curve. I had bed leveling issues and poor prints with layer shift, since found out that the 2 or the 3 screws holding the main x-y carriage where missing and the 3rd was loose.Quote:
Cool. Have you printed anything? Are you happy with it? What's your impressions so far?
tightening them has solved the layer shift but Im still getting 1mm variation on the bed calibration. guys on the forum think it is the micro switch but it seems to work fine when I tested it with a meter.
I think it will be a good machine but needs a few tweeks and lots of wear, the previous owners must have used it a lot.
biggest issues that i missed when researching are the bowden extruder and being stuck with the wanhao maker slicer program. (firm ware upgrades to 3d partry but not brave enough to try)
How long did it take to print it? Which temperatures did you have on the table and the extruder?Quote:
Originally Posted by magicniner
Too bad... never the less, at that price I'd expect that something needs to be fixed. Glad you managed to fix those small and simple things. Levelling issues are not difficult to fix but depending on the results you expect and the instruments you have to help you, can take time. Anyway, regardless if it is a CNC or a 3D printer, I think that spending time on levelling is beneficial in the long terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
Not good. On the other hand, 1mm variation should be easy to reduce considerably. If you have an instrument to measure than you could see if the problem is mechanical or electrical. The mechanical variation takes some time to remove or reduce, but normally should not be too difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
What do you mean is the issue with the bowden extruder? The printer I am planning to build is planned to have bowden type of extruder, so I'd be interested if there is an issue I did not think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
I think the print was about an hour and 40 minutes, 0.4 nozzle, 0.2 layer, 60C bed 170C hot end.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
It's in Taulman Bridge which is lovely to work with compared to standard Nylon 6 filaments.
I found PLA a lot easier to print with than ABS I only recently changed my hot end to an E3d clone so can now print Nylon, etc. The only issue with PLA is it's absorbs water so make sure you store in with silica gel and if it has absorbed moisture an hour in the oven at 80c will sort it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicniner
I bought 10kg's of ABS when I first bought my printer so I make it work lol but my life would have ben much easier if I had bought 10kg of PLA instead ;)
I find ABS is strong than PLA but there's not a lot in it.
Nylon can absorb up to 20% of it's weight in water and can need 1 to 4 hours at 80C to dry a full reel to the core, PLA at 80C for 1 to 4 hours will yield a nice bit of modern art but no useful filament ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertboy
Print a mount for your phone in PLA and leave it on the dash in a hot car on a sunny day, then tell me that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Desertboy
I'm interested in making functional plastic components and while PLA is OK for a few bits it's properties limit it's usefulness in any applications which require greater permanence.
- Nick
I forgot the heat thing, I print everything in ABS apart from the first prints I did so never noticed it lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicniner
If you want to make injection mold strength parts maybe consider Nylon or Polyurethane casting especially if you want produce a lot of one part, you can use a router or 3d printer to make you master molds.
I definitely want to have a go at casting with polyurethane and also aluminium casting but need to make a furnace first. Vacuum former is the next project but cnc style lol.
Bowden can be trickier to get the retraction settings dialled in properly, and rules out using flexible filaments as well.
You guys should certainly look at PETG filaments, as easy to print as PLA but as strong as ABS, doesn't absorb moisture either; some types can be stringy but good retraction settings handle that. I have been using "Real Filaments" (Check amazon) and they have been working very well for me, £15 - £20 a spool depending on colour.
Thanks
Alex
Thanks for the suggestion, I have some samples of PETG to try once I've got the Nylon parts in production.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
Its always a risk buying secondhand but yes it was cheap enough. Having said that I've only replaced a few screws, oiled it and changed a few setting and the print quality is much better. (mainly slowed it down and dropped the hot end temp 15 degrees) At least in happy with it now. Still using the PLA that came with it so hopefully it will get better with better filments.Quote:
Too bad... never the less, at that price I'd expect that something needs to be fixed
I was looking at the e3d aero which is more controllable and can be used for all materials, I think the main issue is that for this machine it is propriety so not easy to change. its really slow on the warm up which is bugging me already.Quote:
What do you mean is the issue with the bowden extruder? The printer I am planning to build is planned to have bowden type of extruder, so I'd be interested if there is an issue I did not think about.
Having done some quick prototyping tonight I can definitely see the potential so may look at up grading all the electrics, The machine is rock solid so I tthink it will be a good base which will save me a lot of time.
Might even get the lathe finished this year... :0)
I agree, I'm experimenting with a roll of PETG (coincidentally from real filaments!)Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDoran
I have found it pretty easy to print with, although it can sometimes have small stringy artifacts, but these are easy to scrape off.
It is definately tougher than PLA, but i couldn't quantify by how much.
I think it will be my "go to" filament when strength is a factor, otherwise PLA . I haven't tried ABS yet as I've heard it's smelly and I'm enough trouble as it is!!
Pic of 16mm tube motor mount for my upcoming X8 copter printed in PETG
Cheers
Attachment 22571
ASA is another good option, it's basically got all the properties of ABS but significantly less warp, less odour when printing and better UV resistance. I've tried formfutura's ApolloX with pretty nice results once I added a fan at 30-40%
I've also been having very nice results with formfutura TitanX again with the fan. Basically a modified ABS that seems to have very minimal shrinkage and warping.
Carbonfil is still by some significant margin the most impressive filament I've used in terms of making accurate structural parts with very high strength and dimensional accuracy. Its still expensive and a pain though, so still looking for my ultimate filaments... Edge (PETG type material), Apollo X (ASA) and Titan X (modified ABS) are about as close to ideal as I have yet found.