Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD

Yep. Steps per are correct. Distance is correct.

I am now suspecting that i might have a faulty UC300. A few minutes ago Mach3 was not recognising the UC300 for some reason when the USB lead was plugged in. I wiggled the lead, restarted the PC, restarted my electronics, but no connection (UC300 power light was on though). So i disconnected everything and took the lid off. Everything looks normal inside my box Checked connections etc. I did notice that the case (which is earthed) may of been touching the outside metal part of the USB connector. I fixed this and plugged the USB in again and it then connection was established ok. Not sure this is related to be honest.

So I did a mid air cut with the spindle and extraction running and that was ok. So then I tried to re-cut the part that screwed up before as a test and not only did i get a few nasty jolty noises during the cut, halfway through Mach disconnected from the UC300 and the job stopped. After that I reconnected the UC300 and tried jogging and doing another midair cut and that worked ok.

All the problems seem to happen when i am actually cutting something and not when jogging / air cuts.

Ideas i have had so far are....

1. Faulty UC300.
2. Vibration from the machine during cutting effecting the electronics somehow which are under the cutting table.
3. Noise. Surely this would effect air cuts as well though.

I have tried several USB leads all shielded and different ports on the PC and that's not the problem i don't think.
Lost at the moment. Any ideas much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

I did notice that the case (which is earthed) may of been touching the outside metal part of the USB connector. I fixed this and plugged the USB in again and it then connection was established ok. Not sure this is related to be honest.

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Yes this would cause problems because it would create an earth loop with the PC. The USB gets it ground from the PC earth.
Don't earth the case of the PC to same Star Earth point used for the control box. The Pc gets it's earth from the Mains directly thru the plug.

Vibration or resonance won't cause these problems. It mostly makes the motors run rough and lower performance not miss steps etc unless really bad.

USB can be flaky to start with so if you have any poor wiring connections or noise going on then it will be picked up.

But Before starting on the wiring I'd go over the mechanicals with fine tooth comb to make sure no lose couplers or binding issues.

Then Go over your wire connections very carefully. Make sure Power wires are away from signals. Esp around the VFD.

Trying to diagnose problems like this is difficult from distance because it could be so many things. Often it's something really simple or silly.!!

I have just proved that it's related to load on the cutter.

I tested cutting about 3mm passes of birch ply (now scrap) while Jogging. After only a few centimetres Mach3 would stop (As i mentioned before when i was surfacing my bed).
It just did it about 10 times in both X and Y directions. Each time no error condition was present in Mach 3.

All i needed to do was to go in the other direction and then it would work in the direction which had stopped working previously (With a bit of a jolt to start).
I really don't think it was my keyboard. It'a a Steel series shit hot mechanical key thing.

Having got it to do that consistently, as soon as i rose out of the material and did the same thing, it did not stop at all.
This is consistent with my experiences so far.

Could this mean the drivers are at at fault in some way. Something to do with all those dip switches possibly ?
Overheating, protection kicking in or something?

Maybe I should of gone for those Leadshines as you suggested.

As usual. Thanks for your excellent replies Jazz. Is this your forum ?

Cheers
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Could this mean the drivers are at at fault in some way. Something to do with all those dip switches possibly ?
Overheating, protection kicking in or something?

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No guarantees, but I saw something very similar when I first set up my 3D printer. What's the max current setting on your drives? Yes, decode those DIP switches! Could be that if these are set too low, you are just not generating enough torque to move the spindle under cutting load.

I hope your right.

I have current set to 3.8 as recommended by CNC 4 You.

e.g.
SW1. Off
SW2. Off
SW3. On

SW4 is set to off. (e.g. Half current mode).

Attachment 17234

Edit : I am running 10 Microsteps.

Cheers
Martin

Don't know if this is related to your problem or not but from time to time in the past I've had e-stops when the cutting loads suddenly increased. If the cutter was clogging up (aluminium) and slowing or stopping the spindle it could trip the e-stop.

I assumed this was increased electrical noise from the VFD as the amps shot up, and any long cables were like antennas which fed this into the BOB. In particular the long run to the Z seem most affected.

Since upgrading to 24V on the e-stop & limit circuit (i.e. relay into the BOB with very short wires) I've not had an unintended e-stop due to sudden load increases.

So when you do an air cut things are different to doing the real cut in terms of VFD load and this is another factor to consider in the diagnosis. Having said that if Mach3 is not e-stopping then it surely points to something in the UC300 or USB?
....
Not sure if you were joking but this forum was set up by Lee Roberts [and we are all indebted to him for doing so]. Dean (JazzCNC) is a massive contributor so you could be mistaken for thinking that, but it is not his creation. On that subject I think Jonathan is still a moderator ?

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

As usual. Thanks for your excellent replies Jazz. Is this your forum ?

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NO the Forum belongs to and is kindly run by LEE Roberts. . . :applouse: . . . . I just come on and cause trouble.! :pirate:


Your problem is NOT Load related. No cutting can or should stop Mach3 from working. The motors can stall or miss steps but will never stop Mach working or break connection to Controller.

Just re-reading Jazz's post Number 132.

Quote:

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The Amps should match or be close to the Motors rating as possible. Good drives will let you set exactly to match motors but If no exact match then set to next lowest. You'll just have lower than rated Torque but better than going higher and having more motor heating.

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Here is a link to the spec sheet for my motors.
http://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/Stepp...1-03%204Nm.pdf

It seems to suggest they are rated for 4 Amps (if I understand the spec correctly). Hence the 3.8Amp suggestion i guess.

So where do i go from here i suppose is the question.

Hear you Jazz.

So you don't think it's load related.
In that case is it possible that the VFD is generating a lot more noise when it's cutting rather than just running ?
Is the next test to take the VFD out of my enclosure?
Nightmare...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Hear you Jazz.

So you don't think it's load related.
In that case is it possible that the VFD is generating a lot more noise when it's cutting rather than just running ?

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Yes it's possible but whether or not that is the problem I'm not so sure.! The easy way to check is to remove the VFD from the Control box.
The VFD cables running thru the machine shouldn't be a problem provided you have a little separation from signal cables.

Like I say this won't be load related because I've pushed cutter thru MDF without spindle running and motors not stalled before material is ripped from bed so with the small DOC and low Feed rate you have been using then it won't be load. Even with a very tired cutter it wouldn't cause this problem.!. . . Again thou easy checked just throw a new cutter in it.!!

The amps are fine at 3.8A. 2000(10x) micro steps are fine so you have no issues there.
It's not the drives protecting them selfs, they would just fault and blink at you showing what cause the fault.

Can you make it do it and video it. This may highlight some things. Also show the Electrics and wiring around machine.

Thanks Jazz. First job in the morning.

OK.

So here is a video of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeALZMIaJ70

If you want me to video inside the box i will.
I was racking my brains this morning and i remember something similar happening on my previous machine when jogging.
Could this possibly point to the fact that my problems are possibly connected to the PC / mach3 driver / plugin?

Cheers
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

I was racking my brains this morning and i remember something similar happening on my previous machine when jogging.

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Common denominator being the Keyboard.? . . . Did you try changing the keyboard as I suggested.? I've had many daft happenings like this over the years and it's been keyboard related.

I think you have 2 issues really. The losing connection I'm 99% sure is noise affecting the USB.

The Jogging I'm betting is keyboard related.

1. Reinstalled Mach 3 from scratch and re-entered all my settings. Same problem.

2. Just tried a different keyboard. Same problem.

3. Purchased UCCNC as an alternative to mach 3. That's the next test.

After that i suppose i have to assume it's noise and i will have to try taking the VFD out of the box.

UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

I have to say I like UCCNC a lot. It's cleaner and has a much better interface, and is much simpler which is what i have been after. So i will keep an eye on it for now until i have some confidence it's not going to go mental on me.

Cheers Chaps. Thanks for all your help.

My money is on the PC being the problem and I would swap that first, think if you had a noise issue the symptoms would be more constant. Watching the video and what you can do to get it working again suggests to me it's some sort of buffering problem, when you send a keystroke it could be clearing that, the minute you release, the other tools start sending signals and off she go's again.

What's strange is how it doesn't do it when cutting air...hummm

What hardware is existing from the previous machine.

.Me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

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Not so wierd if you have a suspicous mind. Doesn't take genius to see the advantage of the plug-in not working so well with Mach3.!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

I have to say I like UCCNC a lot. It's cleaner and has a much better interface, and is much simpler which is what i have been after. So i will keep an eye on it for now until i have some confidence it's not going to go mental on me.

Cheers Chaps. Thanks for all your help.

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Hiya,

I hadn't seen this reply before I posted mine, fingers crossed for you and good luck.

To add to my reply, I did wonder if it was a problem with the controller but I wasn't sure if you had hardware from them or not.

.Me

Ok. So after some more testing with the UC CNC software i am still getting the odd reset during a cut. No crazy lost steps though which is good.
So I have decided I am going to bite the bullet and redesign a new bigger box for all the electronics, as I am sure the packed in proximity of everything is part of my problem.
At least now I can use the machine as is to make it.

I am planning to make the box out of 18mm birch ply as i have it.
I would ideally like to get the vfd in the same box, but with a significant internal shield to separate it from the sensitive stuff.
Also I am wondering whether my dust extractor which sits under my bench in fairly close proximity to the box could be causing me a noise problem as well.

Can anyone tell me what materials block noise? Or would you fail safe and just separate the VFD completely.
Would it also be sensible to separate and shield the mains stuff from the low voltage stuff ?
I assume wood doesn't do anything.

M,

you are in Bristol right? Would you like me to come and have a look? 4 eyes better that 2.

If you think you might be able to advise me on how to improve my set-up that would be great.
Where about's are you?

Thanks
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Can anyone tell me what materials block noise?

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Conductive and earthed ones, that's why metal boxes are the norm. Ferro magnetic ones are best.

I ordered 3 rolls of copper shielding adhesive tape today.
My plan is to stick that all over the inside of my wooden box.

And possibly have metal shielding between the various internal sections as well.
Hopefully that will do the job.

Following a very kind visit from Komatias, he suggested that I may have a ground loop.
So before I go off building a new box I am going to to try his suggestions, and see if I can't get rid of my Gremlins that way.

However the machine is now working well enough to make these. My fist commission!

Attachment 17329Attachment 17330

Thanks to all of you lovely people who helped me to get my machine going!

Dod you have a chance to sort your groundloop out?

Hey George.

I decided to run a little bit more to see how often the problem occurred and see if I could spot a pattern. E.g. Did it always happen under load ?

Well i have just run nearly 1/2 a million lines of GCode cutting a complex 3d model with 6mm and 3mm ball noses (in four batches) and I have not had one reset.
I was getting really adventurous on the feed towards the end of the job. Ended up running at over 4000 mm / Minute.

I will keep an eye on it for now and record when and if I get resets.
I will definitely run a separate bare earth wire to the machine through the dust collection PVC pipe to ensure static is not an issue and earth this to the machine as well. Then I can disconnect the shielding of the VFD cable at the machine end as you suggested.

One thing you said has definitely helped me and that is to make a note of my machines co-ordinates at my job Zero point.
This allows me to check that my machine is absolutely in the right place for each session of machining i do, and return to my zero point if I should get a reset. Very good idea.

Will keep you posted.
Thanks again.
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

One thing you said has definitely helped me and that is to make a note of my machines co-ordinates at my job Zero point.
This allows me to check that my machine is absolutely in the right place for each session of machining i do, and return to my zero point if I should get a reset. Very good idea.

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If you have Home switch's then you shouldn't have to do that.? The control software should allow you to save the WORK offset before each Job then it's simple case of HOME the machine if you E-stop or Reset. That's the whole purpose of HOME switches so you can return and have multiple WORK offsets and easily go to them using Gcode.

No machine should be without HOME switches IMO they are priceless at times.

Martin,

sounds promising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

If you have Home switch's then you shouldn't have to do that.? The control software should allow you to save the WORK offset before each Job then it's simple case of HOME the machine if you E-stop or Reset. That's the whole purpose of HOME switches so you can return and have multiple WORK offsets and easily go to them using Gcode.

No machine should be without HOME switches IMO they are priceless at times.

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Yup just like I told him:victorious:. Very important point there too, when you reset or e-stop, you must always assume you have lost position.

Martin is using UCCNC so I could not help with saving the work offsets like you would in Mach. Never used it myself.

Thanks Chaps.

Jazz I have home switches. Prox sensors.
UCCNC is very similar to Mach, just without so many bells and whistles.

In the past I have been plunging into my workpiece at Job 0,0 to make a point so if I lost position for what ever reason, i could manually by eye line up again.
Not very accurate and not very satisfactory.

Just reading the UCCNC manual and yes there is a way to save offsets, something I haven't ever really understood.
In fact its a single button press to "Offset Current Position". I will test, but I assume this saves the current position as a job Zero point relative to the machine co-ordinates.

One thing I was very happy with is that after two hours of running, the machine went back to the zero point and it looked exactly right.
The machine co-ordinates were also exactly as they were when I started. So accuracy is looking good.

I will at some point put a homing switch on my A axis as well to ensure my gantry is square.

One thing I have just decided is that there is no business in 3d machining wooden stuff. It takes so long!
I have been making a complex mirror frame and it has taken me all week. Each side of the frame took 3 hours machining.
Something tells me that 3d machining is also very hard on the machine as all 4 motors are working flat out for long periods.

Back to the drawing board on the business front.
Do either of you guys know of people making stuff and making it pay ?
I guess you have to find a niche.

Thanks
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Just reading the UCCNC manual and yes there is a way to save offsets, something I haven't ever really understood.
In fact its a single button press to "Offset Current Position". I will test, but I assume this saves the current position as a job Zero point relative to the machine co-ordinates.

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Yes I know that's why I said it. I do have UCCNC but don't use it. Mainly because there boards are USB not because the software isn't any good. It's Ok software but a little basic for me.

OFFSET's are easy really.! You just have to get your head around the fact you have 2 Coordinate systems. MACHINE & WORK.
WORK coordinates are variable and you can define ZERO anywhere on your machine bed.
MACHINE coordinates are FIXED and never change. Only way they can change is you move the HOME Switch.

WORK ZERO or correctly termed WORK OFFSET is just an OFFSET distance from the FIXED Machine ZERO Position. Save this OFFSET distance and you can always accurately get back into position by Homing the Machine and then sending to WORK ZERO.

Now where it can get a little Tricky is the Fact you can have Multiple WORK OFFSETS each having it's own unique ZERO Position. This is done using Special OFFSET G-codes G54, G55, G56 etc upto the limit of the controller.
By default you are proably using G54 so never really are aware of the fact and by default your CAM software will be using G54 offset.

But lets say you wanted to cut 3 different jobs in 3 differant materials using same tool. First place each material on the bed and define Zero and save the offset for that material using one of the WORK OFFSET's codes.
Then what you can do is produce individual G-code for each part. Then copy & paste into one Large file. At the start of each Job you enter the OFFSET code you have setup in advance. ie job #1=G54 #2=G55 #3=G56

Now when the code runs after first job it goes to next WORK OFFSET and starts again from the new Zero.

Try it using the MDI. First go to OFFSETs and enter different values in G54 and G55. Make sure machine is away from any of the coordinates you typed. Now Enter G54 G0 X0Y0 and it should go to that posiiton and DRO's will display ZERO's. Now type G55 G0X0 Y0 and it go to that position and the DRO's will read Zero's.!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Do either of you guys know of people making stuff and making it pay ?
I guess you have to find a niche.

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Yes I know many but Can't tell you what they do because of client confidentiality.!!. . . . . Well I could but then I'd have to Elimnate you.!! . .:joker:
Your right thou most are Niche markets and they earn well from them.!

Got it. Thanks Jazz.

X and Y are cool. For me now it's just the Z that changes after each tool change.
Have you got an automatic tool change system - Is that another ball game ?
Where would i start with that ?

Attachment 17429

I am (EDIT:: reasonably) pleased with this, but it took me a whole week to design and make. Hence the 1/2 million lines of gcode and 9 Hrs + machining.
Onto the next idea...
Do you think i could make these out of moulds using the CNC to make a plug?

Cheers
Martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

Have you got an automatic tool change system - Is that another ball game ?
Where would i start with that ?

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You start by taking out a Mortage and or selling the Wife. Then yes it's all new ball game. Not massively difficult but expensive and will require some coding or Macro writing. This is one of the reasons why UCCNC is restrictive because you can't easily take full control for things like ATC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mturneruk

I am pleased with this, but it took me a whole week to make. 9 Hrs + machining.

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Looks very nice but 9hrs is nothing for 3D work. I've got people who makes things that take 12-18hrs minimum with Millions lines of code and are only 200x100 rectangles. I cut 6ft sq mural made in 4 pieces for school wall that each piece took 22hrs and ran continous.

As you get more experienced you'll be surprsied how much you can fetch Cycle times down. If your doing 3D jobs it's worth Re-tuning your motors biased towards acceleration rather than velocity. It will bring cycle times down considerably.

I was increasing my acceleration and velocity as I went along. Bit at a time.
What i noticed was that the Z axis was the limiting factor, so i increased it, and then obviously my job completed faster, but I felt sorry for my machine. Everything was very warm. Spindle, steppers etc.
Not boiling though, but very warm.

Also I only have one 3mm ball nose bit and i didn't want to break it. I roughed with a 6mm ball 2.5mm stepover, 5mm DOC and then finished with a 3mm ball with a step over of 0.75mm.
Forgetting the design I did, what is the optimum tool size / Stepover for this kind of thing?

Something tells me it's better to design something that allows you to use a bigger tool.

One other thing was that the amount of clean up I had to do was a significant pain in the ass. I wondered if running the spindle faster or slower might reduce that. I tried a range of speeds, but settled on about 15000 as it sounded nice.

PS. Can't sell the wife, she looks after the kids while i'm CNC'ing.

check out www.diycnc.co.uk
spindle v5 might be your answer

I would like to thank mturneruk, Jazz and eceryone else for the amount of information contained within this entry.
I am at the same position as mturnerUK and just building my control panel and using Jazz's wiring diagram.
Will post images as the build goes on (own thread) but the information has been priceless ;-)
Thanks,
Ian

Hi Guys
I wish i had found this thread, before i started buying bits for my Isel 2018 conversion, I have spent a few hundred this week and after reading this for first time im regretting 90% of it, I have working steppers on machine and today removed them to replace for ones with wiring colours i can make parallel, I have 8 wire ones now but dont know enough to guess at where wires go

Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve-m

Hi Guys
I wish i had found this thread, before i started buying bits for my Isel 2018 conversion, I have spent a few hundred this week and after reading this for first time im regretting 90% of it, I have working steppers on machine and today removed them to replace for ones with wiring colours i can make parallel, I have 8 wire ones now but dont know enough to guess at where wires go

Steve

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Do you have a link to them and a list of the colours?

hi thank you for reply,

here is what im doing http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11184...18-or-Educam20

here is a link to the only data sheet i can find data sheet, Sorry Lee

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...6/83328.attach