El Beast - Initial design phase, comments and critique welcomed!

Man that Z Axis really is awesome! Far too nice to actually use and get dirty :witless:

Alex

You know Zeeflyboy you're a bastard because you've upped the bloody bar! Now we all have to aspire to your level not going to even attempt it with my present build but the next build I'm going to be copying you and then pretending like that's how I was always going to do it ;)

Between you and routercnc I feel like going home, ripping all my hair out and crying lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desertboy

You know Zeeflyboy you're a bastard because you've upped the bloody bar! Now we all have to aspire to your level not going to even attempt it with my present build but the next build I'm going to be copying you and then pretending like that's how I was always going to do it ;)

Between you and routercnc I feel like going home, ripping all my hair out and crying lol.

---

Hahaha you say what we all feel :D
Usually you just have to dig deep, go back to the drawing board and make a winning concept.
With these guys I have to admit defeat and bow humbly..

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

Very kind, but I wouldn't put my work in the same category as routercnc.

In hindsight I think one big improvement to this Z-axis would be to use longer rails and Z-plate, such that in the full down position the top of the Z-plate is flush with the top of the main body, thus keeping the unit sealed at all times when down in a cutting position. That would also allow one to space the upper carriages up without losing travel, thus giving an even more rigid setup.

Oh well, there's always a v2 ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Very kind, but I wouldn't put my work in the same category as routercnc.

In hindsight I think one big improvement to this Z-axis would be to use longer rails and Z-plate, such that in the full down position the top of the Z-plate is flush with the top of the main body, thus keeping the unit sealed at all times when down in a cutting position. That would also allow one to space the upper carriages up without losing travel, thus giving an even more rigid setup.

Oh well, there's always a v2 ;)

---

I have been watching your build and I have been amazed by your quality of work. I am starting to design my router and will definitely be taking some ideas away from your build.

I agree with your comment about increasing the length of the rails but more for the fact that your seals might see some wear the more they run over the edge of the rail unless you have a good lead-in on the rails. I doubt it will be much of an issue here but thought I would point it out.

Keep plowing away at the build, I enjoy the updates!

JZ

Did a little more work, haven't finished these side plates yet but thought I'd show where I'm up to.... they still need milling on the underside but I haven't quite decided how I'm going to do that yet.

So first up I just whizzed out some inserts from 0.6mm matte finish carbon fibre. Normally I would cut submerged but given it was such a thin piece and an extremely quick job I just used the vac with hepa bag and hepa filter.

For cutting CF I only ever really used double sided tape. Works very well and the waterproof variety doesn't mind being submerged...

https://i.imgur.com/2Z05vCA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6jTZ96r.jpg


Out of interest I get asked occasionally what I use for cutting CF - my favourites are these diamond coated fishtail burrs from BZT

https://i.imgur.com/o99cq4O.jpg


So given that these side plates were going to be awkward to hold down without using a larger piece of alu and leaving tabs in I thought I would try something I read about online. I have in the past used double sided tape to hold down parts but the tape either tends to be a bitch to remove the part and clean up the residue or too weak and all types I have tried have allowed too much movement in the part which then leads to vibration of the part during cutting.

I saw someone do this and thought I would give it a go since these parts aren't particularly critical! My only reservation was that it might all go horribly wrong while using coolant, but I dialled back the mist to a bare minimum and it seemed to work fine.

So the basic idea is that you lay down some strips of masking tape on to the part and then lay corresponding pieces down onto the bed.

https://i.imgur.com/LcCNvLD.jpg


You then put a little superglue on the top of the tape and while lining it all up, push the plate down firmly into place. I turned the tape on the plate over the top to make it easy to line up before then removing the excess once it was stuck down.

https://i.imgur.com/lZtx6VJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9UyHzy4.jpg


I was actually very surprised at how firmly the plate was held in place - no wiggle like you can get from double sided tape. Anyway, proof is in the pudding as they say and it worked exceptionally well.... sounded great when cutting and the chips didn't dance on the surface as they do when using normal tape, suggesting the part wasn't able to vibrate. One day I will need to make myself a nice vacuum setup but one project at a time!

https://i.imgur.com/5LMLuYs.jpg


Before removing the plates I just checked the fit of the inserts in case anything needed tweaking but they were a perfect fit

https://i.imgur.com/3ncvVQW.jpg


CF plate isn't stuck down yet, just resting in place so it's not sitting perfectly flat for those with keen eyes:

https://i.imgur.com/qftzEPw.jpg


So anyway, next up I need to mill the underside and then print the side seals...

Dude that is going to look badass!

One thing I am curious to know is if you have experienced the Z axis rolling downwards on its own accord -due to the weight- when the stepper is not switched on.

On my milling machine, the weight of the mill head made it freewheel downwards when the power was off. I remedied this by using a belt drive, as opposed to the direct coupling you have on your Z.

I assume the the spindle/mount and sliding plate/rails are not heavy enough to overcome the natural thread retention of the ballscrew, so this may not be an issue at all with a router, as I've seen a lot of guys using direct coupling.

Also, did you go for medium or light preloading for the Hiwin carriages for the Z? I am thinking Medium for the Z, Light for everything else, though I guess it not so important..


Edward

Ah my eyes!!! Build porn again!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JZimmy

I have been watching your build and I have been amazed by your quality of work. I am starting to design my router and will definitely be taking some ideas away from your build.

I agree with your comment about increasing the length of the rails but more for the fact that your seals might see some wear the more they run over the edge of the rail unless you have a good lead-in on the rails. I doubt it will be much of an issue here but thought I would point it out.

Keep plowing away at the build, I enjoy the updates!

JZ

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Cheers - Yeah I'm not too worried about wear (I can print new seals for a few pennies after all) but I do think there are improvements to be made to this Z-axis design. I was thinking about just making a longer plate with longer rails (and indeed probably will at some point) but I'm actually thinking a v2 will be change enough that it wouldn't be worth modifiying, rather just build an entirely new Z for the v2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward

One thing I am curious to know is if you have experienced the Z axis rolling downwards on its own accord -due to the weight- when the stepper is not switched on.

On my milling machine, the weight of the mill head made it freewheel downwards when the power was off. I remedied this by using a belt drive, as opposed to the direct coupling you have on your Z.

I assume the the spindle/mount and sliding plate/rails are not heavy enough to overcome the natural thread retention of the ballscrew, so this may not be an issue at all with a router, as I've seen a lot of guys using direct coupling.

Also, did you go for medium or light preloading for the Hiwin carriages for the Z? I am thinking Medium for the Z, Light for everything else, though I guess it not so important..


Edward

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Well, not sure yet on this one. On my X6 it stays put when powered off (and actually requires a fairly good shove to start moving down), so I would expect this one will too - it is a little heavier with the large Z-plate and rails on the moving side, but that will likely be more than offset by the fact i'm using a 4mm pitch screw rather than 5mm like on the X6.

My carriages are all ZA (medium) preload.

Nick & Alex - cheers chaps :)

Z axis can be easily blocked with "dummy nut" loaded with spring which is released with electomagnet when the machine (or only Z axis) is on.

Material for dummy nut is usually nylon or HDPE, therefore no worries for wear.



Congratulations for CF mill. I am impressed. Professional job.

regards

Lovely work there Zeeflyboy. A machine has to function but no harm in making it look nice along the way!

I've hit a slow spot on my build and other commitments need sorting so looks like you are going to finish well before me. Good progress keep it up.

Hi Zeeflyboy
did you calculate? How much did you pay for everything?

BR//

Mario

Sorry, qmarjov - I don't yet have numbers to share for cost. I will do a rough estimate nearer the end though.

As you guys may have noticed, not much has happened last month or two. What with christmas and work commitments I haven't had time to do anything substantial on the project... The extra work related stuff should abate mid february and that is when I expect to pick this project back up more in earnest, though I may continue to do little bits and bobs along the way.

The reason for this post is that I just got a cool new toy to play with and thought it was too cool not to share the results.

When I say "I", I actually bought this for the wife so she could start a little home business to allow her to turn her hobby into a little side income stream. Of course, I get to play with it so I'm just going to count it as one of my toys!

So what is this new toy? Why a 45w CO2 laser of course!

https://i.imgur.com/JhMWxdx.jpg


We've actually done quite a few little test projects over the last day or two (including some cool stuff like etching slate coasters) to test out the machine and get the wife acquainted with operating it. But today I thought I'd have a little play with the sort of thing I actually want to use it for:

I tweaked my Logo design and did a quick test in wood to see how it looks:

https://i.imgur.com/hGbaNFY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2jGIC4x.jpg


Decided it looked nice, so went hunting down some anodised aluminium to try etching.... only thing I had to hand were the thorlabs angle brackets. I popped it and and had a guess at some numbers, came out beautifully! I had to remove the honeycomb tray as the brackets are a little thick to sit on top of that, so that is why the bracket is sat on some chopping boards. This job took about 4 minutes to run through.

https://i.imgur.com/1ILvU91.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/pad1Icy.jpg


I'm pretty ecstatic with the result there.... definitely opens up some new possibilities in terms of finishing items I make once I've got the anodising rig setup and working.

Aaaaanyway, back to real life work! Sad times.

Nice logo and the laser you bought is a good move for someone who wants to start a home business!

Well we shall see how it works out, I'm not expecting to be able to retire any time soon but I'm hoping she can make enough money to pay off the expense of the machine/maintenance and generate a little income from something she enjoys doing. Obviously this stuff is becoming more and more accessible so there are a lot of options out there for people looking for bespoke laser created items but I do feel its the sort of low volume thing that fits a "cottage industry" type operation rather well. I think going around and getting some tie-ins with local wedding dress shops and flower shops etc would be a good way of generating some business in a crowded online market.

But more importantly, I get to play with a frikkin laser!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

Well we shall see how it works out, I'm not expecting to be able to retire any time soon but I'm hoping she can make enough money to pay off the expense of the machine/maintenance and generate a little income from something she enjoys doing. Obviously this stuff is becoming more and more accessible so there are a lot of options out there for people looking for bespoke laser created items but I do feel its the sort of low volume thing that fits a "cottage industry" type operation rather well. I think going around and getting some tie-ins with local wedding dress shops and flower shops etc would be a good way of generating some business in a crowded online market.

But more importantly, I get to play with a frikkin laser!

---

what size cutting area has it got?

20"x11.5" I believe, although in theory as long as the material isn't too thick (the slots are quite narrow) you can use the passthrough slots to feed a longer piece of material 20" wide through the machine though I haven't tried obviously.

I believe the plan eventually is for it to take care of the passthrough automagically using the cameras for alignment and continuation of the pattern but that isn't available yet in the beta software. I believe it can be achieved manually you just need some way of indexing and aligning.

That's very cool..! Any links to the laser you bought? What are you doing for extraction? I ask because the ones I've used in the past have had pretty expensive filtration set-ups attached to 'em - and given the smoke they generated on some of the jobs they really needed them too...

Excellent work though, man and best of luck to your wife in her new creative endeavours..!

Wal.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Would like to know what machine that is.

I have the K40 and the steps are quite visible when engraving anodized aluminum.

It’s a Glowforge Pro... finally arrived after buying one during the Kickstarter over 2 years ago. Thankfully that was at 50% the price that they are currently asking!

I have to say I thought that despite the marketing blurb of custom tubes etc it would be a mediocre laser but with an easy user interface for the non-technical missus to get to grips with, but first impressions are that it is actually a high quality bit of kit capable of some stunningly detailed results AND pretty easy to use.

Extraction wise, they have some fancy activated charcoal and hepa filter unit thingy but that is even more delayed than the laser itself and won’t be ready until the summer. It has pretty effective (and noisy) extraction fans and a hose connector on the back for drier hose. Currently that just gets shoved out the window to kill the squirrels.

Just loaded YouTube and the newest video was LinusTechTips showing off the Glowforge xD

Looks alright. And yes it is not cheap.
Interested in the filter. New workshop does not have extraction and I am not allowed to bore a 4" hole in the wall. Not even for the tumble dryer -_-

ZeeFlyBoy would you be willing to share the fusion 360 files ?
This thing is truly amazing in every aspect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Not It's understandable.
Thanks

Haven't made any decisions on that yet, although I've been asked a few times.

I need to wait until I've got it all together to check for any design flaws or things that could just blatantly be done better before deciding about that... I've already had a few little re-designs and tweaks along the way which would have wasted people's time and materials had I already made the files available.

I do hope to be able to get back to this machine in about a month once this stuff at work is sorted out, so hopefully it'll only be a few months or so until it's all done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

It’s a Glowforge Pro... finally arrived after buying one during the Kickstarter over 2 years ago. Thankfully that was at 50% the price that they are currently asking!

I have to say I thought that despite the marketing blurb of custom tubes etc it would be a mediocre laser but with an easy user interface for the non-technical missus to get to grips with, but first impressions are that it is actually a high quality bit of kit capable of some stunningly detailed results AND pretty easy to use.

Extraction wise, they have some fancy activated charcoal and hepa filter unit thingy but that is even more delayed than the laser itself and won’t be ready until the summer. It has pretty effective (and noisy) extraction fans and a hose connector on the back for drier hose. Currently that just gets shoved out the window to kill the squirrels.

---

Word of advice don't cut PVC, the wife will die and more importantly the fumes will also damage the machine ;)

When you drill, cut or melt it with a laser lol the chlorine is released into the air. Chlorine gas was used as a nerve agent before mustard gas in WW1 it didn't work very well because charcoal filters it effectively but without the gas mask it's pretty affective.

How do I know this I drilled out 100 or so PVC pipes in an enclosed space and learnt a valuable lesson that day as well as taking 10 years off my life lol. But laser cutting releases a lot lot more gas then drilling.

yeah, not just PVC but any chlorinated plastic can produce chlorine gas when lasered... Apparently plenty of things to be careful about cutting due to what's released.

Hows the anodizing coming along?

Thanks Zeeflyboy for the response on the files. I will be watching till the end!!! I love the design. I would just scale it up to a (work area of 610mm x 915mm). And Specifically for aluminum/Brass cutting. I cannot believe the results you are getting with your current CNC.

So chaps, been a while...

Good news is the work stuff is all done with and I got the promotion so happy days - work on this project can soon resume!

While I've been away I've been thinking about designs though (hard to turn off the brain sometimes!) and I was keen to get my ideas for a better z-axis down on paper so to speak. Spent most of yesterday modelling and this is what came out... I'm actually thinking of scrapping my current design and going with this one instead right away as it is in my opinion much improved.

I would love to get some feedback, opinions etc while I'm still refining the design. It's pretty much mostly there, just a few details such as limit switches and grease points to sort out.

It reuses the ballscrew/nut and a few other components from the old design, but will require new rails/carriages.

Headline changes:

- 2:1 ratio belt drive (25mm HTD 5M) to isolate the Z-axis stepper from the hefty vibrations and also give it a better gearing advantage for the now pretty heavy Z-axis.

- Extended rails/front plate which now results in a permanently sealed/protected unit at all positions

- HGH25HA carriages (the size is more convenient) spaced much further apart in all directions for improved rigidity

- Rear mount HGR-T 25 rails for easier installation (increased size also will improve the rigidity of the Z-axis front plate when extended down).

- Ability to tram the entire axis while mounted with only the need to remove the bottom plate to do so.

- Marginally more compact with a reduction of 5mm in stick-out from the X-axis.


will share more details when it's completely finished, but as mentioned I'm keen for any input in the mean time.

https://i.imgur.com/KMJqQnp.png

https://i.imgur.com/iitjLJV.png

https://i.imgur.com/Ss0MUEp.png

https://i.imgur.com/s5hDScB.png

Congrats for the promotion.
The Z axis design looks gooood!!!

Cheers Nick!

So I fleshed out the design with all the details...

This is the pulley system. I added a manual knob on top as I do find it quite useful to sometimes be able to manually move up the Z-axis while setting up. I also added proper bearing support so the pulley system is properly supported.

https://i.imgur.com/phmh6FP.png

https://i.imgur.com/phmh6FP.png

Better view of the tensioner idler. I had thoughts of more complicated setups, but this is a simple design - simply an oversized centre bore that allows you to push the tensioner into the belt and then fasten down to clamp it in place.

https://i.imgur.com/pT6T5gZ.png


Moving on, here you can see the seals and the (to be 3d printed) magnet holder on the HD16 ball screw mount

https://i.imgur.com/rEjhuKR.png

https://i.imgur.com/QVAElmd.png


Got a little time to make a start on things too. So first up was modifying the large pulley... I decided to get rid of the ballscrew nut and just make the pulley into the retaining system.

First up I centred the pulley in the lathe and drilled a 10mm bore (the size of the ballscrew mounting shaft).

https://i.imgur.com/IbvWe2x.jpg

I then mounted it to a 10mm shaft with loctite to allow me to work on the other side where I needed to open the bore to 11mm to allow me to tap it to m12x1 to match the ballscrew.

https://i.imgur.com/QeClpls.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cMneU16.jpg


Ideally of course the ballscrew shaft would extend all the way into the counter bearing, but I had already ordered my screws for the old design and I'm not re-ordering a c3 ballscrew! To solve that problem I made a small press-fit extension shaft:

https://i.imgur.com/TRIXmZo.jpg

end result:

https://i.imgur.com/u3MDlX8.jpg

I now just need to machine a slightly longer collar for the FK12 so that the pulley doesn't bind on the housing.

With that done, I moved on to the motor shaft extension.

First up, centred the smaller pulley (had to remove the top cap) and bored to 6mm.

https://i.imgur.com/AiPhUf8.jpg

For the shaft I centre drilled first as this is going to be quite long/thin so needs support at the far end from the live centre.

https://i.imgur.com/p2R3c5G.jpg


Turned down to 6mm

https://i.imgur.com/SIY7ZvE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/19r8IRi.jpg

Flipped, re-centred and then did the work on the other end. It's critical that this is a really precise fit on the motor shaft and that it's concentric to the outside as any error will either cause the motor to bind or damage the bearings. To that end I used a 7.8mm drill followed by 8mm h7 reamer and then turned down the external diameter.

https://i.imgur.com/0AIyf2c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y0FgW4C.jpg


I did all this work and then ended up turning down the external dimension a hair too far, so now it's a loose fit in the bearing. Frustrating doesn't quite cover it! Will have to put this on the re-do list once I get back from holiday.

While all this was going on, the 3d printer was at work on the seals.

https://i.imgur.com/3Pxa0FG.jpg

Who says 3d printers can't be accurate - this was spot on! (I did adjust by 0.8% for thermal expansion before printing)

https://i.imgur.com/ccQrPyz.jpg


The big bottom seal next (6hr print!)

https://i.imgur.com/SZXNxAm.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/TTj9Vcr.jpg

Very nice fit - smooth and doesn't stick at all along the rails, but close enough that it should keep the nasty stuff out.

That's all for now. Hope to re-do the shaft extension and get the idler done when I'm back next week.

Nice work there well done. Those seals are looking great. The ones you made for me work well and are just tight enough but not too tight. You might have seen in the last video I put out that the steppers have no problem moving the axis so a big thank you for that.

Missing a critical dimension is annoying. Sometimes I aim a few hundreds of a mm over size, check with the micrometer and use sand paper strips to get it to final size. Takes a while but quicker than starting again if you overshoot

I assume you didn't fancy slots for the stepper to tension the belt? Also do you have bearings in the top plate for the end of the pulley and the end of the stepper shaft? If so I would make one of them floating in a separate small plate which bolts to the main plate. This will allow both bearings to sit where their respective shafts dictate - otherwise the pockets have to be machined very accurately. Something to think about. Have a good break and don't think about CNC too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by routercnc

The ones you made for me work well and are just tight enough but not too tight. You might have seen in the last video I put out that the steppers have no problem moving the axis so a big thank you for that.

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Glad to hear it - haven't caught up on your work for a while actually... need to go see what's happened while i've been gone!

Quote:

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Missing a critical dimension is annoying. Sometimes I aim a few hundreds of a mm over size, check with the micrometer and use sand paper strips to get it to final size. Takes a while but quicker than starting again if you overshoot

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Thanks - that's what I did this time and it worked well.

Quote:

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I assume you didn't fancy slots for the stepper to tension the belt? Also do you have bearings in the top plate for the end of the pulley and the end of the stepper shaft? If so I would make one of them floating in a separate small plate which bolts to the main plate. This will allow both bearings to sit where their respective shafts dictate - otherwise the pockets have to be machined very accurately. Something to think about. Have a good break and don't think about CNC too much.

---

Cheers for the thoughts. I was originally going to go with slots, but it makes it difficult to use a seperate bearing setup for the stepper motor which I wanted to do for the sake of my motor bearings, and the tensioner has the benefit of engaging more teeth on the small pulley.

I will think about floating the bearing above the ball screw - that's a good suggestion thanks.


So I re-made the shaft extension (it worked this time, I won't bore you with pictures as the process was much the same) and also made the knurled knob that allows me to manually move the Z-axis up/down. My thoughts are this is also an easy place to install a brake if the Z-axis proves heavy enough to slide down on it's own.

So started off by turning the alu stock down to size

https://i.imgur.com/34TQKaC.jpg

Knurled and parting

https://i.imgur.com/m2FaBGY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/k1TeCH4.jpg


Meanwhile, 3D printed a drill jig to make drilling the retaining grub screw hole easier.

https://i.imgur.com/ubCL7QA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/j8sWBi4.jpg


Pressed into place

https://i.imgur.com/sfawxH2.jpg


To save damaging the collar (plus it's a pretty small thing to clamp) I then mounted a 6mm rod in the lathe and used that to mount the knob to do the top side operations:

https://i.imgur.com/xqYFovz.jpg


Final part:

https://i.imgur.com/XLlTfsx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5CIkbi6.jpg


This is the assembly:

https://i.imgur.com/cbbj2Gr.jpg

You are a bad guy!!! I have lathe envy now!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nickhofen

You are a bad guy!!! I have lathe envy now!

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I waited a long time before I bought my lathe as I wasn't sure I'd make good use of it. Now I couldn't be without it! Along side a mill / router, and a pillar drill there isn't much you can't make.

Zeeflyboy - more great work there with a nice finish to the parts. One thing to bare in mind is adding thumb wheels or other discs adds to the rotational inertia and knocks a bit of performance off the stepper. Not a big deal on yours as the diameter is quite small and for most work the Z is not flying up and down. Just thought I'd mention it in case you were adding some to the X and Y.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by routercnc

there isn't much you can't make.

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I saw Pacififc Rim the other night and thought one of those 400 foot robots could come in handy for shopping and the like any chance of making me one of them?

Here is an idea for your lathe to-do list's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq1-cRtu1ZM

A pen type die grinder or dremel like tool may be less involved for smaller stuff, chuck/collet size being the issue.

Oh that's pretty neat! I can add it to the long list of projects lol...

Enough of this manual lathe nonsense, today I fired up the CNC at last and made the top plate for the new Z-axis.

First fixture:

https://i.imgur.com/NVVbHTw.jpg


Roughing pass (6mm 3 flute roughing bit, 8mm depth of cut with 1mm axial engagement, 12,000rpm and 1,500mm/min

https://i.imgur.com/ifVAwEy.jpg


Finished top side (3 flute, full depth pass 16mm skimming 0.1mm off each pass with a repeat finish pass, 12,000rpm 1000mm/min and a chamfer pass):

https://i.imgur.com/Wb4Vv42.jpg


Then I drilled two holes for 6mm dowels to align with machine axis, and probed for zero:

https://i.imgur.com/ecRK6ND.jpg


Backside ops done:

https://i.imgur.com/LSAPzoq.jpg


Finished part with seals and bearing:

https://i.imgur.com/JEquvfQ.jpg