Never mind I'll work it out on my own :-)
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Never mind I'll work it out on my own :-)
Hi welcome to the forum!
Short and sweet:
A machine designed to run a plasma torch doesn't need to be anything overly sophisticated or substantial in design, providing you build the machine mechanically sound i.e all axis's run smooth, free of binding and square to each other, a simple design using somewhat "light weight" materials can be used to build a nice machine, this lends well to not needing such things as big powerful motor's.
Have a look in the build log section Plasma Table Machines, here you can see what others have built in the build log section, I'd say more importantly would be to read through some of the other non build log discussions as running a plasma can be troublesome in other ways (electrical noise etc.)
As time is against you, it maybe a better option to look at a commercial machine such as the Blue Marlin from Techserv, "I would like to build a machine" and "but I dont have the time" dont really go well together when it come's to any type of CNC machine unfortunately, so if you really do want to build your own, the minimum investment is going to require a reasonable amount of time just on the discovery of the components you'll be working with.
Spending the time you do have in a commercial machine and so the company, would come with the benefit of (I would hope) support at the end of the phone if and when you need it, as although you'll get all the help and support you need from others on the forum, a request for help here isn't guaranteed or a response time.
.Me
I didn't say I didn't have the time to build it, but didn't want to start from scratch researching every single aspect l if people can offer help in the right direction.
I know in mechanically terms what is required and I don't know where the best place is to get the parts so was again hoping for advice.
there has to be common parts people use or software people thing is the best etc.
i wanted experienced advice, reading people's blogs where they are learning them selfs also doesn't mean it's the best way of going about things etc, how do I know who is doing it right or wrong? I don't know enough to make an educated desision right now, so means I have to learn everything so that I can form that opinion.
i was pointed to this forum and maybe I expected that I would be offered some advice, but being told to basically go do a "search" or "buy one new" wasn't what I needed to hear lol (kinda obvious :-p )
thanks anyways, i won't give up on this just looks like I'll have to do it the hard way which I was trying to avoid :-)
Editing your first post asking for help with this arsey response, even if you have put a smiley face after it, is not going to get you any help or win you any friends on here. We get quite a few people on here who say I'd like a machine but don't want to/can't be bothered (delete to suit) do any research, I'd like you people who have taken the time to learn (the hard way) just to tell me what to get and where....Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Generally if you show a little grace and put a bit of effort in then the help comes and people who have the experience will come and help you.
Good luck with working it out on your own :-)
I put up a hello thread up and not a single person bothered to reply (nice warm welcome) and was ignored, so started this thread and told to go search or buy a new machine already built, so sorry if I gave up on this forum :-)
I asked for advice not a hug lol its a typical non helpful forum response "google it" instead of actually helping, I have already done allot of the ground work just wanted to know best places to look for stuff, lol, even purchased the hypertherm 45.
i help people each day, and give allot of my own person time to help people, i try and educate and give sound advice, that's what I joined a forum like this for, I didn't realise I had to work it all out first then ask about it hehe
anyways sorry I posted asking, the forum that sent me he was so helpful and advice was great, so I'll get my coat :-)
Sometimes a thread goes down the list of trending topics so quickly that it's not always seen. Not everyone (make that most people) looks in the new member section, I'm as guilty of that as the next person, and for some reason its only normally a few people who will actually be the first to say hello, dunno why but there you go. I'm not on here as much these days, and I know that others are the same with life and the cnc work (or play) taking up most of their time. Others come on here, build their machine and then dont come on for months or years.
I cant remember your exact wording of your post here but to me it smacked of tell me what to buy and where because I cant be bothered to do any research. That's never going to get a favourable response on here!
Your choice to stay or go, good luck with your cnc plasma machine whatever you decide to do...
Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk
Appreciate what your saying, I thought I showed good grace by saying bellow, what I did for a living and about me and what I was looking to do, instead of just starting a thread, I think I was just getting to the point in this thread, I.e I need help finding the parts and wanted experienced advice, not I have no idea and I can't be arsed :-) your right though I should have outlined how much I already knew and that I wasn't looking for the basics etc, just looking to start buying the bits and what to buy as many people do the whole do it cheap as possible and that's not what I was looking for, want to build a quality machine that will be the one and only I build, the fact I asked for help and didn't pretend I already knew everything I thought was a sign of respect :-)
Clarkey you won't find a better or more helpful forum anywhere in the world or on the net. Trust me I'm on most of them and this Forum is the most helpful you'll find with experienced users rather than Arm chair CNCer's.
However at times you don't always get instant response and have to wait or bump your Thread if required. But I can tell you that with the response and child like attitude you've taken all you get is told to F@~£off.
Be a little more patient and respectful then you'll get pointed in the right direction or given priceless advice that will save you time and money.
Suggest you start again put the attitude away.!! (Or get on the hard route suss it your self, if can afford it.?)
Woah, not exactly the best attitude to adopt when you are asking for help. This forum has to be the most helpful around with an abundance of knowledgeable and helpful members many of whom are experienced cnc builders and electrical and mechanical engineers.
I have nothing but gratitude and respect for the help I have received, Dean has spent a lot of time providing me with help that has enabled me to go from an absolute newbie who had never touched a machine to someone who is now running and maintaining their own 8x4 cnc router in a production environment. Even upgrading the machine from a DSP to CS-Labs controller which was made so much easier (possible) with Deans assistance.
Oh and did I mention that the members of this forum share their valuable expertise and knowledge for free!!!!!
Why help people who cannot be bothered to help themselves especially when they approach you with a snot nosed 'I want everything given to me as I don't want to do any hard work myself' attitude!
Quote:
Originally Posted by alboy
Well thanks for the praise but I can only point you in right direction you still have to do it so pat yourself on back not me.
While your correct and I agree with you on this I have to say that understand where this lad is coming from. He just wants info on where to buy because thinks knows what he needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by alboy
Where he went wrong was that WE know he doesn't know what thinks he knows but he's soon to know that knows far less than what WE know. So he'll quickly know is shity attitude learnt him that what he doesn't know but WE know and won't now tell has cost him lot of wasted money.!!
So even thou he doesn't know it we are learning him.!! . . . . . . . Shame it's not what he needs to Know for good Cnc machine. . Lol :stupid:
Lol, if you guys just put as much effort into helping me as you do bitching I'll would have it build by now :-p
I know enough that I knew I should ask for some help, when you are not helped with constructive information you get on and do it yourself, simples :-)
Idiot.!! . . . I've helped more people than you have had hot dinners build great machines with advise on every thing from design to where and what to buy with the only difference between them and you is they had enough respect to wait until suited me to reply or ask directly in respectful manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Same goes for many others on here who more than willing to dish out valuable advise provided little respect is shown.
Crack on do it your self and pay the price of learning. Hopefully you won't learn the hard way but I suspect not.:encouragement:
I'm 33, so lets say I started having hot dinners when i was like 3ish, and I'm fat, so I tend to have allot of hot meals, so lets say around 25,000 meals, thats really impressive if you've helped that many people :) Respect :beer:
You speak of respect as the first word you say to me is "idiot" lol, I've not personally attacked anyone on here, nor would I, I don't know you.. :P
Can somebody just ban the waste of bandwidth and save them the embarrassment of looking like an even bigger idiot?
BTW, Jazz's first word wasn't "idiot". He wrote a nice post highlighting how you should ask in a less ignorant way, but instead you still acted like a selfish brat who's launched all his toys and is still trying to blame everyone else.
If I was you I would take a step back and think about things I for one did not see your first post as I do tend to read every post on here. I have noticed though that you have edited it to say " never mind" and complained that you had not had any reply. People don't always have the time and their time is given freely so you have to wait sometimes.Quote:
Lol, if you guys just put as much effort into helping me as you do bitching I'll would have it build by now :-p
Why don't you start again and if you have a machine put some pics up etc. How can anybody answer questions if you don't give some specs for the machine and what you are trying to achieve. As have been said this is my my opinion the best forum around for helping others and getting good advise. Of course you have to do a bit of work with reading the forum to find the right people that have the relevant experience for the questions you ask.
Ok I can see people are very serious on this forum, not really used to that, maybe age difference, who knows lol, if you want me to say sorry for deleting my post, fine I'm very sorry, I respect that you all know more than me and I will never be able to do it on my own.
When I upset my mrs I cook for her, so should I bake a cake or something? let me know what flavour and I'll post you a slice :D
Then is all forgiven?
This is a copy of your original post:
I'm still reading the other posts, for now...Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
.Me
I think you hit the nail on the head, most of the people on this forum are adults.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Ok I'll give you that could be taken that way but won't appologise for it. Reason being it was more statement than attack and the first thing that popped into my head when saw your post and has everyone here's know I'll always tell it the way I see it.!! . . . . Your bad attitude was very idiot like.:hopelessness:Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Oh and your still probably few 1000's meals behind those i've helped which you won't be one of. . .:thumsup:
Are you saying you don't want a slice of the im sorry cake I'm baking?
Nor did I, I offered the right direction, you missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
You should/could have said that's what you wanted, I'm not a mind reader.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Yea there is, you can see them repeatedly shown and discussed in the build logs of others, you just have to look, read, then look again, obvious I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
I pointed you to it, you missed it.
Typically people running a build log have done the learning already, have a plan of action and so on. Some of the learning takes place in the other non build log discussions I pointed you to, when they start doing something wrong, experienced advice gets posted to help them in the right direction.
Bummer, I guess your never going to be in a postion to form that opinion then, what with you not having the time to research everything, so you can learn everything.
You got what you expected, the problem was in your request, it was vague, contradictory, confused. As such I gave you what I could based on what you gave me, sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear but the advice is there, you missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Np, good you shouldn't give up, it can be fun and rewarding but like I said, requires investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
How rude! and even more full of confusion then your first post, like i said above, you got out, what you put in, if "google it" is the definition you would put on what I offered you as advice, then you wont be getting any more help from me! Try looking deeper than just the words I used.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
Yea so do I, so do allot of us here, what do you want a hug?, your lucky you even got a reply from me given my life at the moment and here you are talking about my reply like you even know me and that others cant read it for themselves, who do you think you are rubbishing my effort like that.
So much for "greatly appreciated".
If you've done all the so called groundwork, what advice exactly is it your looking for? Ohh wait you said, you just need purchasing advice, DOH! if only your first post had said that to start with!!!
Not a single mention of buying or purchasing in it Neil, if only it had of been that clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by njhussey
I cant understand why you didn't if that's all you needed, would have been so much easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
I hope you plasma right through the main structure of the machine and it ends up as a pile of sections on the floor :thumsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
.Me
I went through this. I went to cnczone and noticed that everyone made the same mistakes. Have they changed?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperClarkeyLee Roberts
They weld up enormous constructs in steel, find the tool does not fly in the way they expected then try and fix it with THC.
The torch Z axis is invariably driven by an enormous stepper motor because stepper motors seem to come in packs of 3 and they cannot see any other way to do pierce and cut height. The THC then has to convert analogue to digital so everything becomes tortuously complicated controlling stepper coil current when all the cables are next to a plasma arc.
Apparently the only possible plasma unit is the Hypertherm because it has a very nice head for cutting thin stuff. Being Americans they cannot possibly buy a matching low power tool it has to cut 2" armour plate or nothing.
Mostly they will cut plates about 1 to 2 feet across but they make huge water tables and pump tons of polluted water because they can.
I nearly overcame all this, but at the last moment I discovered that the 5M pitch pulleys I had based it around had enormous backlash. I got disheartened after all that work,it got put on a back burner and is still waiting.
Anyway, there are a few snags you might want to think about, assuming you are still here :wink:
I'm still here, thanks for the advice :-)
i dont want to build anything over kill, seems pointless when I see the most important factor being control and precision, it's not driving any force so I fail to see why stepper motors are the choice for so many plasma tables when they draw so much current regardless of work done, closed loop servo seems the way to go and I don't think they need to be very big.
be interested to know if people run servos direct drive or step them down with ratio to give more accuracy, I would like to reduce it to so that I have no backlash in the drive.
is there a go to liner rail with screw drive already built in for the X and y?
That was a question i wanted to know, why can you not pump the water down the drain?
And yes guys take it on board I pissed you all off, sorry :-)
Nope sorry I'm not bought that cheaply, now throw in a few Guiness and I might be persuaded to join you.!! . . . I'll Still tell you F@&£ All like. . :hysterical:Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
You are worrying about all the wrong things. Maybe you have to build the plasma table in your head and get it out of the way first.
The water is polluted by the green guck you put in it to stop the bed slats from rusting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superclarkey
OK. if you are serious from now on, you will be helped.
Lets start from the beginning:
-How big you will like the plasma table to be? working area
-Z travel?
-do you plan to cut square tubes? Round tubes? if yes how long?
-aluminum , welded steel, mixture or aluminum profile structure?
-only dedicated plasma machine or you will try to do other stuff also?
Some answers:
-Hiwin 20 rails is best, same price as 15 size but easier to mount and overall engineer. There is one other rail i like better but is more rare- MGW Hiwin, though its ideal if you use only one rail on Z and X. Which you could do with the HGR also
-1605 ball screw for Z, 1610 for X. Nope, better design them yourself and order them from China. later we will point you from where. Y? still not clear until you say what length will be your longest axis. If you want to cut 2500mm long - rotating ball screw nut both sides is best
So yes, if you dont go bigger than 2500mm on one axis it could be all ball screw machine which simply put is much better than any other option.
-dedicated THC is a must, i dont know whats new this year, but last year Neuron was best here in EU. It controls directly your Z axis and has all the necessary functions, like pause at corners and so on. I have one but not the time to make the plasma table. Avoid cheap THC which are not dedicated/ can not control axis directly/
-even cheap servos with 2500 encoders have enough resolution at 1:1 at one revolution 1610 screw will move 10mm so 2500/10=250 ppr so 1mm/250=0.004mm resolution at speeds 30m/min, which is really fast
depends on design probably 200W or 400W servos for the machine. I will point you from where to buy cheapest in internet.
- I don't like water bed machines. Too much hassle if not a heavy production . When i make my plasma cutter it will be air, sucked and vented into the table
Most importantly- don't rush buying until you have completed the design. If you are lazy or don't have time to design, search for designs to buy, then show us so we could help you choose. I do also bespoke designs these days. Post a job request in relevant forum section . Dean and maybe others make custom machines.
So as you see, there are options. I for once was very busy today and just sat down to respond you but was amazed at the development of your thread. So lets take life easy and see what we can do here.
If machine is meant small size, there are other options. Thats why you were pointed to read build logs. There are modular designs with elements from china, that are quite suitable for 1x1m machine.
Hope that helps
Ok that takes guts its a bit like letting the magic smoke out of the drives.Quote:
And yes guys take it on board I pissed you all off, sorry :-)
Not sure what you mean by high precision when talking about a plasma. What sort of precision are you looking for.
Steppers are very easy to setup unlike servos and are cheaper and will also provide more than enough precision
for a router or plasma.
How about starting a build log to keep all the questions in one place and start with (if possible) some cad drawings so as the forum can see what you are trying to build.
Did you miss the word PLASMA.!! . . . .Ballscrews with rotating nuts.???????????????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski
I did not. what do you suggest for 4x8 table? belts or RP? Same price. So why not ball screws?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
That's why i asked him what length. Did you check recently prices for *belts and pulleys* or *RP+pulleys and belts* . Exactly same as for ball screws. Until we don't know what exactly he intends to use the machine for it irrelevant to discuss further.
I personally say for Z belt, for X ball screw and for Y -RP, but that will confuse him and others who read further. There are many ways to make a plasma machine. Did i tell you that the big commercial plasmas use Ballscrew on all and RP on Y, and mind that - 2 motors with brushes on each side of gantry, so they brush rails for dust not to damage Hiwin seals
Boyan we know exactly the use it's in the title "PLASMA TABLE". Also have you seen the crap that comes off plasma machine.? What do you think that will do to ballnut rotating at high speeds along static rod effectively covered in grinding paste.???
You'll be hard pushed to find many commercial plasma cutters using ballscrews other than on Z axis. 99% will be helical R&P with more than enough resolution and easily achieve high feeds without stressing anything.!
We have a few big plasma profiling machines on our site, and I used to work for one of the big companies, and I have never seen one yet with ballscrews on anything but the Z axis. All of the machines so far have railtrack and R&P for X axis, linear rail for Y axis and linear rail and ballscrew for Z.
Saying that we are just about to start work installing a 6KW laser with linear rail for all axis. Apparently this rather large lump of metal can hit 140 meters per minute on fast travel. For something that can profile 13mt x 3mt plates this will be interesting to see.
Thanks the info is great :-)
i want a working size of 8'x4' and the gantry needs the room to be about to jog out of the way so overhead crane can lift the plate in.
will be cutting upto 12mm plate max.
i have bought a hypertherm 45 for the cutting and will upgrade if it's not man enough.
I agree, most real commercial plasmas use helical RP. I will not insist further on ball screws,though they could be protected or dust evacuated in a downdraft table like i said. Obviously the less hassle, the better.
I don't know prices, but if he likes as he said "ready elements" he could look at Bell Everman "servo belt". Or try to construct similar belt on belt mechanism. I assume that 2 belts protect each other from dust in between, upside down and hidden.
@Boyan - Can you explain please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling
Hi,
Nothing against cheaper controllers. But you should know the answer to that question better than me, having in mind you are selling THCs. What is the reason that are you asking me? There are more ways than one to skin a cat . This is just my opinion for my future plasma cutting table. As i said i have already bought the controller for myself -the Neuron.
But here is your answer:
I am starting a new trend for myself / or am i stupid or getting wiser :boxing: / :The more the *hardware way* possible and the more away from * software like windows, linux ,mach3 and plugins* possible, the better. I think i am starting to get industrial :hysterical:
So IMHO now is even the time to try a dedicated hardware controller like the chinese sell for around 400-500euro. I have seen videos of it working. Or the chinese don't know how to cut steel with that industrial revolution there? Of course further investigation is due. But yes, all in one for that money is a no brainer.
I am sorry guys/ EU and USA manufacturers of boards, software and so/ , but if you follow the trends, in a couple of years DIY machines would be chinese from electronics to rails. Who doesn't believe me just remember 5 years ago when nobody had ever heard of "water cooled spindle". And DIY machines had Kress or Dewalt routers . Hey right now i am running 150 euro dedicated offline controller/ from yesterday/ on my i may say almost industrial CNC, which does a better job than a couple of combinations that cost as 10 times as more
Not to speak of the Leadshine and similar drives and motors. Where are the Geckos that we imported from USA 5-7 years ago? Its time to wake up
Anyway Sterling, nothing against you or the board you sell. I say- its even great that you could shed some light on things. I would have bought your board a year ago if i knew that i would want a Hypertherm now. Its never late to be wise. In short I want a Hypertherm and a HAAS :anonymous: for New Year present
Hi BoyanQuote:
Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski
Was just hoping for reasons why you say things like "dedicated THC is a MUST" and "Avoid cheap THC which are not dedicated/ can not control axis directly".
I know very well both the pros and cons of both. I also know that certain manufacturers of certain standalone THCs made certain claims on their site and on the Mach3 forum that they agreed to remove/retract after I proved such claims were false.:friendly_wink:
My slight irritation is with those that either repeat these claims or they (like here) infer them without explanation or context. It's not a BIG irritation - but an irritation none the less.:boxing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling
I remember now what you said there and it was well said. And as you say Sb had to take back his own words. Here i did not mean exactly that what the manufacturer said. Tried to explain above, why i start to try to avoid unnecessary complications, in other words - run like hell from software and search for hardware solutions. But for the people who love Mach3- lease just ignore my ranting .
well as you put it so nicely you're forgiven.
Not so sure about the love Mach3 bit though - it's done what's been required of it for 10 years so I allow it to stay... :friendly_wink: