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Hi I am new to the world of CNC machines and wanted some help with this. I am about to purchase an Isel 4433 CNC router (for £250 - crazy!). I want to run this machine with fusion 360 and mach3 or mach4. Please can someone suggest a way for me to do this? I really don't want to use galaad!
Cheers
L
with no reply from Isel 4433 users
its possible its a re badged Chinese machine
and photos of both the interior and exterior of the control box will help identify what you have
John
Sorry John. Don't quite understand. What are you suggesting? I am going to buy this machine - if it means I can't use mach4, sobeit. However, galaad looks fairly old-fashioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by john swift
Thanks for the reply, John.
L
I had miss read your post
I thought you had bought the machine - my mistake
may be you could try to get photos from the seller you can post
John
I have attached photos of the machine. I think it is a genuine ISEL machine - I am buying it from a school who have are the 2nd owners. Attachment 25629Attachment 25630
Thanks John,
L
It may require you (or be easier for you) to take strip out the electronics back to the axis drive motors, and re-introduce stepper drivers (assuming stepper motors), BoB and maybe PSU. It's not difficult and for the tiny price that you're paying for the machine you'll get a capable machine for very little outlay.
Re-using the existing electronics? - get some control-box images as previously suggested.
the machine looks like it is worth the money without the electronics
the base of the machine is large enough to house the electronics
if it has a RS232 serial connection to the PC
I expect it has a motion controller that only works with propriety software and would not work with mach 3 or 4
the devil is going to be in the detail but
replacing the existing motion controller with some thing like Warp9's Ethernet SmoothStepper (£55) could be an option *
if you can re use the existing stepper drivers and power supply
( *a generic breakout board connected to an old PC's parallel printer port will be cheaper)
the spindle motor speed control used will determine how easy it will be to re use the existing spindle
John
PS
on the net are a few threads on converting Denford lathes
(Denford is another supplier of machines to the education establishment )
https://www.summet.com/blog/2016/01/...speed-control/
you may find the ISEL electronics is similar
Okay. I will get more pictures on Monday just to see. It has a serial connection, yes. So would it be as simple as swapping out a board?
Thanks for the help
L
EDIT:
I have been researching ESS boards - have also looked on Warp9's website and found different UK distributors. Both linked distributors are selling an ESS for around £170. If you could link a cheaper alternative, that'd be great!
Thanks L
looking at this mornings search history I can't find the popup advert I looked at
I must of miss typed the smooth stepper must of been £155 exc vat
John
Okay. The only reason why I am buying this is because its relatively cheap and so I am trying to keep cost down. Thanks for the suggestion, but are there any other cheaper alternatives that won't really sacrifice on accuracy or anything? I am pretty sure the spindle speed is independent of the board as it has a speed control setting on it. I am not all that knowledgeable when it comes to CNCs so this is merely an assumption. Could I just use a BoB instead of buying some sort of ESS?
Thank you for all this help (I'd be hopeless with out it!)
L
yes thats why I said in post 7
"a generic breakout board connected to an old PC's parallel printer port will be cheaper"
an old 32 bit windows 7 PC* with a parallel printer port will work
the smooth stepper emulates 3 printer ports and can be added later once you have the cnc machine working
(* mach3 only works with a parallel printerport when using a 32bit OS)
laptops can be a problem , built in power saving features clash with mach3's low level control of the printer port
some laptops don't have a proper parallel printer port
they have a USB to parallel printer port converter that only works with printers !
John
Sorry John, I misread that! So this wouldn't harm accuracy?
Thanks,
L
loudew: A BoB might introduce a degree of uncertainty (what I mean is that it's dependent on the performance of the host PC, rather than offloading the motion control onto the controller), BUT... you've got a journey to travel to understand how the build-up the machine. If cost is an issue then a £5-£10 BoB can introduce a degree of predictable control provided that you have a desktop with a parallel port and typically XP o/s. The worst case is that you're out the £5/£10, but other cases are that when you later decide whether to introduce a motion controller then you might well re-use the BoB (e.g. the UCxxx motion controllers).
I would say, though, is cost is sensitive then hold off buying anything until you take possession of the machine and a screwdriver.
Okay. I think my budget for this solution is around £40. I don't have a spare winXP machine, I have a spare win10 machine but it doesn't have a parallel port either. If only there was a cheaper ESS! Thank you both for the help
L
EDIT:
What do you think about this? Firstly, is it the correct thing? Will it work?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-3-Axi....c100005.m1851
EDIT 2:
or this?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Axis-50...75.c100623.m-1
EDIT 3:
Or this?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MACH3-4Ax....c100005.m1851
There are several threads of USB vs Ethernet motion controllers - it would be worth researching these. I've never used a USB controller (though the seller of the Starmill that I picked up did). I've the ethernet version of the first link (a NVEM controller), which is okay, works, but nothing special.
Ignoring the prejudice against the USB motion controllers (and many people do use them) then they could be an affordable alternative to the parallel BoB.
Regarding your budget - remember, the BoB or motion controller is only a small part of the overall solution. You might find that you need to buy stepper drivers as well - at a cost of £20 upwards each. This, and the underlying PSU will help to define the performance that you can expect from the machine - you need to go into this with eyes wide-open on the likely costs.
Okay. I will research into Ethernet VS USB. Is the stepper control pulse output rating anything to take into account? It seems the cheaper I go, the lower the frequency. I am hoping that it is just the board I need to replace - will try and look at the electronics on Monday.
Cheers,
L
EDIT:
Could using the software KAY be a way to get around the issue of not being able to load G-Code?
Thanks
L
Sorry to continually bother you with my ridiculous inquiries, but I have been looking at TB6600 stepper drivers on eBay and have found these. If I do need to buy stepper drivers, would these suffice?
As I said, I am a newbie when it comes to CNCs (and a 16 year-old with no income!) so I do apologize if any of my questions are ridiculous!
Thanks
L
Drivers:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TB6600-Si...3fa9e22480dcd0
The pulse frequency describes a relationship with the maximum axis velocity. Imagine:- Let's say your machine has a 5mm screw pitch, but say a 2:1 belt drive (not unusual) giving an effective 2.5mm pitch (1 revolution of the stepper, through the 2:1 drive results in half a revolution of the screw, therefore the nut will travel 2.5mm). Now lets say that you have 16 micro steps configured for whatever reason - again, not an unusual number, and that your stepper has 200 steps per revolution. With micro-stepping, that gives 16x200 = 3200 steps per revolution, or, with the belt reduction and screw pitch, that's 3200 steps per 2.5mm of travel. Now, factor in the motion controller's frequency - let's say it's 50kHz - or 50,000 times a second, then that infers the maximum axis velocity would be 50,000/3,200 x 2.5 mm/second, or a little under 40mm/second (someone check my math - too early in the morning and that final G&T last night was one too many).Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
As to what feed rate you need - much depends on what you're cutting, how you're cutting, your tooling and the machine's own limits. I'm not comfortable to advise in that direction - that's for you to research (google "Feeds and Speeds").
For reference, on my cheap XP machine, pre-motion controller I was using a kernel speed of 25kHz on a small desktop milling machine.
No experience - I'll let others comment if they know the software.Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
As a fifty-year old with a wife - I probably have less disposable income!Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
Now, that link demonstrates the old adage... Lies, Damned Lies, then Chinese traders on eBay.
Let's just take a look at the headline of a TB6600 stepper motor driver data sheet...
"TB6600HG
The TB6600HG is a PWM chopper-type single-chip bipolar sinusoidal micro-step stepping motor driver. Forward and reverse rotation control is available with 2-phase, 1-2-phase, W1-2-phase, 2W1-2-phase, and 4W1-2-phase excitation modes. 2-phase bipolar-type stepping motor can be driven by only clock signal with low vibration and high efficiency.
Features
• Single-chip bipolar sinusoidal micro-step stepping motor driver
• Ron (upper + lower) = 0.4 Ω (typ.)
• Forward and reverse rotation control available
• Selectable phase drive (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 step)
• Output withstand voltage: Vcc = 50 V
• Output current: IOUT = 5.0 A (absolute maximum ratings, peak)
IOUT = 4.5 A (operating range, maximal value)"
So, micro-steps of 1,2,4,8,16. Max current drive of 5A, Max working voltage of 50V.
Compare that to the controller linked.
micro-steps 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. Max current drive of 4A (peak),Max working voltage of 40V.
It's most likely not a TB6600!, just creative labelling of the unit to imply a TB6600 driver. Google "Fake TB6600" for an entertaining read. Some, including the ones that I bought, actually use a TB67S109AFTG chip which is a tiny quad-pin surface mount device. Without any detailed understanding of the technologies, one simple view is that the "real" TB6600s are whopping big devices hard-bound to a reasonably large heatsink, whereas the TB67S109AFTG are tiny things with less than optimal heat sinks to dissipate heat. What this might mean (and did for me) is that if you're driving a stepper with a voltage and current rating close to the limits then you might well find that the driver shuts down due to thermal overload (self-protection circuitry) and you lose the motion temporarily on that one axis. That inevitably means you've screwed the workpiece that you're cutting.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TB6600-0-...MAAOSwOu9ckgS1 <-- That link looks, at least according to the advert (remember, "Lies, Damned Lies, and Chinese Hong Kong traders on eBay") more like a "real" TB6600 and I'd certainly prefer this over the link that you provided (actually, these are the ones that I replaced the one that you linked to when suffering the poor performance). They are not the best in the world (they barely make it off the second-rung of the ladder) but they are more affordable if you're on a budget.
Best advice remains - wait and see what's in the control box of the machine when you collect.
Next best advice - keep your eyes wide open on this as a hobby - it's very hard to do without some money.
Next bit of advice - buy that machine for £250. Sell it online for a lot more. Blow the money on some girl.*
* I know I'm not allowed to say that in these enlightened times.
Hahah! I had thought about buying it and then just flipping it, allowing me to get a brand new machine that could be better (or a girl!). However, I am not sure how much I would list it for. It has minor scratches on the cabinet window but nothing major - works just fine apparently. Now thinking about it, if the amount I will spend on the machine to get it functioning with g-code is going to be even £50+, I might as well just sell it - not much point in keeping an older machine when I could get a new one!
I am going to look at it before thinking about a list price, however, recommendations would be great.
Cheers
L
Few people are going to be scared off by minor (or major) scratches on the windows.
It's worth as much as the buyer is prepared to pay.
You will most likely spend more than £50 getting this running under Mach3.
Don't underestimate the difference in build/quality between this and a cheap Chinese router.
I was thinking about getting something like an X-Carve? Hopefully this machine will be fine - I quite like the idea of the enclosure because it will be outside of my workshop. As I said, I will inspect the innards of the machine tomorrow.
Thanks
L
I have tested it and I have got the gantry to move using the software called KAY! Amazing! It doesn't really matter that it isn't mach3 - I can sort that out at a later date once I have the means to do so properly. As long as it isn't 'galaad' and can run g-code, it's great. If anyone could aid me in finding a way of getting a copy of KAY for cheaper/free, that'd be amazing because I am not paying 200EUR for the software when I am essentially paying similar for the machine itself! I just wanted to thank all that have helped - an amazing community! I just have the issue of getting this software - might try and figure something out with the company if possible.
Cheers,
L
Hello?
Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
Don't think Mycncuk will be able to help much with that request, but there are certainly a few free alternatives around. I think the general userbase on here is either Mach3/4 (which most people buy after trying it for a month figuring that the £200 odd is worthwhile) or LinuxCNC (which is free, but has different operating principles, which means that a machine is typically designed with one or the other in mind, so its hard to swap).Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
Okay Andy. Thanks for the reply. I need to use KAY just because its one of the only pieces of software that will communicate with this CNC. I am not willing to spend the time/effort/introduce more risk by swapping the hardware - I can run g-code with KAY. I understand it is a pretty niche area due to the fact that not many people actually use it. Thank you for all the help,
L
Not sure what you mean by different operating principles as they are quite similar and a machine running Mach3-4 could just as well run with linuxcnc and it is not that hard to swap:highly_amused:Quote:
Don't think Mycncuk will be able to help much with that request, but there are certainly a few free alternatives around. I think the general userbase on here is either Mach3/4 (which most people buy after trying it for a month figuring that the £200 odd is worthwhile) or LinuxCNC (which is free, but has different operating principles, which means that a machine is typically designed with one or the other in mind, so its hard to swap).
What I mean by that is (from my understanding) LinuxCNC generates the pulses for the stepper driver itself, its built as a Real-Time OS specifically for that purpose. Windows is definitely not an RT OS, so to get a decent output people generally design machines for Mach3/Mach4 to have the signal generation off-loaded to a buffering FPGA of some kind. Sure, you can modify one setup to work with the other, but its not just a software change in most cases.
Mach3 under windows and with a parallel port BOB is doing all the signal generation, much like linuxcnc, but without the determinism.
Not good, but good enough, in most cases.
You are correct when using the parallel port Lcnc does the step gen in realtime but I think these days most Lcnc users use cards that have the FPGA on board to generate the pulses at up to 10Mg like a lot of motion controllers do.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyUK
I am in no way knocking Mach3 against Lcnc nor will I get into a debate about the two. (I actually use both) But would like to see more on this forum about Lcnc.
Linuxcnc is very easy to setup from an iso file to load the system (15 mins max) and then use the wizard (stepconf) to set a simple 3 axis machine up using the PP all free.
Hi Clive,
So would Lcnc work with a serial port machine? If you don't have an idea, don't worry. I appreciate the help and am also going to explore Lcnc a little more, even if I don't use it - looks interesting. Just out of interest, what CNC machines do you have? Fairly new to this stuff and find it really interesting so :D.
Cheers
L
Sorry but you are not giving enough info. Are you talking about the pc on the machine itself? Lcnc nor Mach3 will work over a serial interface. But they will both work with the correct hardware over Ethernet or PP I think you can get a controller for USB with Mach3 but not with Lcnc .Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
I have a small lathe and a Mill running Lcnc and a router running Mach3 (purely a hobby for me)
Ahh right. I was looking at a lathe but thought it is probably wise for my first CNC machine to be a router.
Cheers
L
I know this thread isn't really in use anymore, but I ended up obtaining KAY for half price, and have been using it for around 10 months now. For anyone else who might be in a similar situation (not many at all), just swallow the price and buy it. It has been an amazing machine considering it only cost me £350. Thanks for all of the help.
Offer still stands - sell me the machine for your original price and splurge the cash on some Lady.
You are missing one thing here.? At the start, it would have been a wiser thing to convert the machine to Mach3 or Linux CNC and then sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
Isel machines are a well known and trusted brand that uses quality components so it is still worth good money today, esp if converted from the original software/Pc. It could easily sell for £1000 + even with scratches provided it's mechanically and electrically sound.
As you have it today I doubt very few would buy it for that kind of money because of the software, I have never heard of KAY and I doubt few others have either and this would put many off. While even tho it's getting dated just the name Mach3 in the description of a machine being sold will generate interest alone. Similar to Linux CNC but not quite as it's still not so well known by new users. Linux CNC is very much like Marmite.!
So my advice today is to get it converted with the money you have made/saved while it's been running and then either use it until something better comes along then sell it straight away. Or just sell it after it's converted and spend the money on your self, stuff the Lady's. Modern Girls want to be independent anyway, so let them ..Lol
I am now considering selling it (after this pandemic has died down), but would still want a CNC to use - I am considering building one, maybe building the frame out of T-Slot aluminium extrusion. My two options are: build one, or dish out a little bit more money for a kit (any recommendations for building tips/good value kits would be very much welcome).Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I am going to investigate the electronics of the isel machine (as I didn't when I initially said last May!), and see if it will be a case of just replacing the controller (and maybe changing motors and stepper drivers), just to get an idea of whether it is worth it to convert and sell my isel machine, then build/buy another one!
Thanks for all the tips guys!
I converted my slightly bigger Isel by removing and replacing the steppers but using the existing wiring. Test the existing steppers before replacing however.
The existing toroidal power supply is a good piece of kit keep it. Several voltage outputs.
Your choice of stepper drivers.
I went for Planet CNC controller. I have Mach 3 and the Panet TNC is miles ahead in my experience.
It really is not a very difficult task. I have no electrical experience and managed this conversion with minimum help, most of which was confirmation, of what I was doing. This forum was enormously effective in guiding me to completion.
I am looking for something that will work, nothing majorly expensive but still functional.
Doddy, you mentioned that you used an Ethernet version of an NVEM board that I mentioned (I mentioned a USB based board). How have you found using this? (I am going to need to either build my own or buy a machine afterwards, so also researching for that).
Would you suggest me using this board for either the isel machine conversion or my own DIY machine? (If so, please send a link to a similar unit - I have found these: )
NVEM Ethernet 1
NVEM Ethernet 2 (cheaper)
They work. They're not great and you're stuck with Mach3 with them from a driver PoV. But they do work. I've got a 5-axis one (ordered a 4-axis but the 5 was the only one in stock). If you push a fiver into a charity of your choice I'll throw it in the post if you want it (I won't polish it, but nor will I lick it - you takes your chances!)Quote:
Originally Posted by loudew
From memory - the step outputs are fixed at 2.25us pulses which gave me problems with cheap stepper drivers (DIV-268s) - I had to replace the opto-isolators in the drivers with faster devices to avoid lost steps - documented somewhere on the forum here. Also, possibly more associated with my original configuration there was an occasional problem if you lost comms between the PC and the controller in booting them up in the correct sequence, but that's just finger trouble on my part. I only really used it for the stepper drivers, discrete inputs (homing switches and the like) and I think the PWM to the spindle controller - that last one I think I had a ground loop somewhere and this generated a bit of oscillation with the speed control but I avoided this by going RS485 for the spindle. It worked. Im sure it still works. I'll never use it again because I'll never use Mach3 again.
EDIT: One other thing - they exist better on a twin-NIC configuration with only the ethernet chat between PC and NVEM on the dedicated link, and use the second NIC for watching porn. The chat between the NVEM and PC is onerous on a 100Mb link.
Personally, with limited experience of parallel BoBs, that NVEM card, the UC300ETH (and cheap parallel BoB) and the Mesa 7i76E cards - those was what I've used, the Mesa is the best built card that I have, but I wouldn't recommend the associated LinuxCNC for anyone without masochistic tendencies. The UC300ETH is a good card (and the AXBB-E sounds like a good partnering with a decent BoB), and offers both Mach3 and UCCNC options. The NVEM is better than the Parallel BoB, but it feels distinctly Chinese (a bit cheap and a bit too salty for me) and then you have the BoB. If the BoB works, it's the simplest solution, but you're hanging off the end of a 25W connector between you and the controlling machine.
Others here will offer a broader experience of different controllers.