Time to go vertical.!

Ok for a long time now I've had it in my mind to build a vertical CNC machine, either free standing or off the wall.!!. . . . . WHY.??

Well it occurred to me that seen has I mainly cut Aluminium and I clamp or screw every thing down to the bed, inc the waste material that it doesn’t really matter if the machine stands vertical, horizontal or even upside down on the ceiling (That was Jonathans crazy idea not mine.!)

It also occurred to me that the bennifits would be meny and the negatives few.!! . . Think about it for minute.!

Positives:
1: When cutting dry all the chips fall away from the cutter so virtually no re-cut giving much better finish with longer tool life.

2: Chips fall with gravity and collect in the bottom instead of being flung round the shop or having to be blown away again flying around the shop.

3: Easy to use coolant or air with low flow rate so less mess and spray plus it wash’s the chips and heat away quickly and neatly into a filter collection container at bottom of bed. Simply lift or slide filter tray out with chips on it when done. Could even have worm drive system into collection bin like the big boys do.!!

4: Easy access to all the bed area so easier to position material and less prone to cutting in just one area so wearing screws etc in that one spot. Also easier on my bad back because I’m not bet over machine.!!

5: Massive saving in workshop floor space, basicly taking the same space as a large wardrobe.

6: Easy to build full enclosure using simple frame with folding doors and 1 or 2 sides, less noise and mess contained. Again it's basicly a CNC machine in a wardrobe.!

Negatives: (or Negative.!)

1: Slightly more akward to hold material and clamp at same time.!! . . . Easy fix just use a temp slide to rest material against while clamping then slide away while cutting.!!

That’s the only negative I can find.!

Ever since I thought about it I’ve resisted the urge to whop off the legs of my machine and hang it off the wall. . BUT . .All the time it’s been like that bloody Precious ring from “Lord of the Rings” . . . . . calling me.!!! Anyway after over a year of resisting the sneaky bastard got me didn’t it. . .I cracked.!!

Well I didn't fully crack I more edged my bets and decided to test the water by simply unbolting my machine from floor, up ending and leaning at a 80deg angle against the wall. Whopped 2 raw bolts into wall just to hold it and give it a go.?

My original plan was to orientate it so the X Axis(twin screws) was horizontal meaning the heavy gantry would travel horizontal and the Y axis would move vertical against gravity. This would work best regards fighting gravity but it had other issues like mess falling onto bottom screw, harder to access bed, more work when chopped.
So after consultation with my partner in crime(mate) it was decided that just for test purposes it would be easiest to just stand in vertical position and try it.?
If it didn't work good then easy enough to position horizontal and try and if it didn't work like that then put it back on it's feet with nothing lost but several hours setting up.
It worked and it worked far far far better than even I expected. .:dance::dance:

I did several test's in Ali upto 3mm DOC which is the max I cut at with various cutters 6,10,12mm all done dry and the difference was amazing, all the chips just fell away, even on the horizontal cuts. Nice clean finish and lovely clean cutting sound with absolutly no re-cut.

Next I tried to find the limit but without causing too much stress. So I used a resin impregnated MDF thats very hard and abrasive, harder than most normal hard woods but not as hard as Ali. I did a 5mm deep single pass with a knackerd 6mm single flute cutter up the vertical so pulling gantry against gravity at 5mtr/min and it breezed thru. So did another at 10mm Doc 7mtr/min which is flatout on my machine. Again whistled straight thru at which my jaw dropped.:eek:

Anyway now I've proved to myself the concept works it's time to alter the frame and set up every thing up again, then build the enclosure frame etc.

Will post pics and vid when everythings as I'd like it. Just so chuffed and excited I just had to post. .:yahoo:

WOW Jazz I can't believe you've reinvented the wheel :rofl::rofl::rofl:
what a great idea :idea: I think you suggested it to me some time ago and even suggested it in some one build post ??
the only draw back I can see is length of material you could use(ceiling to floor distance) :naughty::naughty:and the fact you wouldn't use the front of the machine that much as it is near to the floor ??

Just out of interest what material is your frame made from??

James:dance::dance:

Dam! Now I will have to build a brick wall in my new workshop to support a vertical router. Thats just genius Jazz. Look forward to some piccies and a video of that 10mm cut.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by luke11cnc

WOW Jazz I can't believe you've reinvented the wheel :rofl::rofl::rofl:
what a great idea :idea:

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Well they do say neccesity is the mother of all invention.!!. . . I needed the space back . . BUT . . I'm not the first and there's even professional versions.

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Originally Posted by luke11cnc

the only draw back I can see is length of material you could use(ceiling to floor distance) :naughty::naughty:and the fact you wouldn't use the front of the machine that much as it is near to the floor ??

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Well yes and no really. If you need longer than bed material then just mount it horizontal. In my case I dont ever hang material off the bed so it's not a problem.
Also the machine doesn't sit directly on the floor and infact will be on a steel boxsection frame thats bolted to the floor and supports the machines frame and allows for adjustment.
Also the machine is raised about 12" at rear and 18" at front due to being angled back. Infact really the machine will be effectively free standing and doesn't need a wall thou mine will be mounted against the wall with shock absorbing rubber mountings. (At the minute it's sat on concrete blocks and axle stands with a few bolts into wall)

The whole bed is easily reached, far easier than when flat. Straight away in use I knew this was going to be a big bennifit to me and my Bad back because reaching over my wide bed when clamping large jobs killed me, esp if I'd been stood watching over the machine for a while.!!

Frame is all 50x50 box section steel.

http://www.denfordata.com/pdfs/produ...cal-router.pdf

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Originally Posted by i2i

http://www.denfordata.com/pdfs/produ...cal-router.pdf

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Ah ah a bit prittier than my beast.!! . . Thou very sure it's no more accurate or sturdy and 10 times the cost.!!

This orientation was going to be my first choice and if building from scratch then thats how it would be done but the way my machine built it suits me better how it is.

Bruce just for you I've done a quick vid showing it in all it's glorious roughness warts n all.!!

Has you'll see it's very very very very rough at minute, the frame will be braced and cut so it goes back another 18" it will also bolted to a load bearing supporting frame which allows for adjustment, this will be bolted to the floor not the wall.?
I had concerns about the wall expanding with heat and shaking with high winds and this movemnet transfering into the machine. The supporting frame will handle supporting the top and at most I may just butt upto wall with rubber buffers. May even put lift up/down wheels so it can be rolled in and out then anchored to floor, thou think it will be a bit top heavy for moving around too much but will allow for easy access if something breaks.!!

All in all it will stand off the wall 1mtr(40") this is to the top of the Z axis when raised which is it's most protruding point. When parked with Z axis down just above bed it's 850mm(34").
This will be it's parked position when not in use and the gantry will come to rest at the bottom on some rubber buffers to take the strain off the ballscrews when not in use (Sarah's idea Micheal's wife, she's not just a prity face smarter, sharper than a laser cutter).

Didn't push it flatout only 5mtr/min 10mm DOC. because of very knackerd 6mm single flute cutter and no water in spindle, you can tell from the sound the cutter didn't like it and infact after this I tried to cut straight thru 13mm and it got half way and snapped cutter.!! . . .didn't stall thou which I was happy about.:dance: . . . . AND. . . Just look at the room I've got back in the shop plus when it's all finshed and further back with coolant and chip collection try in the bottom along with doors on front so full enclosed it will be brilliant. . :toot:

Won't happen for a week or so because I'm wanting to fully test just in case any gremlins appear that I hadn't foreseen. I will cut several jobs with where it is, these will be a good test because there long-ish jobs in Ali and even some mild steel slots so should show any issue's. . . . I've also got to finish off the electrics new home.!

Here it is and don't comment on the state of the shop or machine.!! . . .Yes I know it's rough engineering at it's best and an untidy shit hole.!

http://youtu.be/pjJ88n-ynx0

looks great, a nice swarf conveyer at the bottom would be usefull.

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Originally Posted by i2i

looks great, a nice swarf conveyer at the bottom would be usefull.

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Thanks.!. . .Yep it's on the to-do list. Can't make my mind up whether to use conveyer or auger screw.?

conveyer gives you the option to remove any wanted items easily.

Strewth! That was quick. This looks exciting. I wonder if a vacuum bed would be good for holding at this angle?

Bruce

That is excellent. Oh, Y and Z axis zero now setting up the steeper per mm on those and working on tracking down a problem on the twin screws.

Michael

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Originally Posted by m.marino

That is excellent. Oh, Y and Z axis zero now setting up the steeper per mm on those and working on tracking down a problem on the twin screws.

Michael

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Problems.?? We'll have none of that here Mr Marino we'll be speaking shortly.!!

JazzCNC - what stepper motors and volts/amps does your newly vertical machine use?

Karl

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Originally Posted by Karl

JazzCNC - what stepper motors and volts/amps does your newly vertical machine use? Karl

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Karl on X axis which is the vertical Axis it use's a single 6.5Nm Nema 34 motor which drives 2x5mm pitch 20mm ballscrews connected with timing belts geared 1:2
Running Gecko 203V drives all axis at 76V & think 6A from a home built toroidal transformer but it's been a while so not 100% sure on Amp's.!! Y & Z Axis are direct drive 3NM Nema 34's same 76V @ 4.5-5A again not 100% on amps.

On a side note it's cut it's first(while vertical) steel today without any hassle, 300mm long slots in 3mm mild steel box section 1mm Doc 10mm cutter steady 400mm/min. .:dance:

have you got images and video yet jazz ??

James

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Originally Posted by luke11cnc

have you got images and video yet jazz ??

James

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This was in a previous quote
http://youtu.be/pjJ88n-ynx0

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Originally Posted by luke11cnc

have you got images and video yet jazz ??

James

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Only the rough proped against wall version see post #6 link at bottom.
I will do another in a week or 2 when it's completely finished but at the minute I'm upto my neck in steel got 2 big jobs going at same time, 3 including mine so it's getting done along side them while I have the welder out. Will post pics as I build the frame.

THat is a monster machine to have mounted vertically - but the amount of space it saves in terms of foot print is immense. I can't tell if you wall you are mounting it to is rendered breeze or solid brickwork...or did you strengthen the wall in any way before mounting? Cheers ice.

Bloody hell Jazz that's fantastic I bet you will be knocking up another CNC now to fill the space on the floor LOL:rofl:

James

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Originally Posted by icedfusion

I can't tell if you wall you are mounting it to is rendered breeze or solid brickwork...or did you strengthen the wall in any way before mounting? Cheers ice.

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The wall is 6" Concrete block but it wont actually be mounted to the wall, In the video it's just bolted to wall temp to stop it falling over.

It will actually be mounted/bolted on a wedge shaped frame which gives the lean back angel approx 80deg. This frame will take the weight and support the top plus allow for adjustment, it will be bolted to the floor not the wall.
I didn't want heat expansion and vibration from high winds/sun the wall takes transfering into the machine, it will possibly but up against the wall but with a rubber buffer in between, kind off like a car engine mount.
I may put some lift up/down wheels on so can be easily moved if required. . . . It's bloody heavy.

So far I' m loving it. :dance:
It was a bit Odd at first because I'm so used to standing at side of machine and X,Y coords being left/right & away/towards me.!!!. . . . Which they still are but I have to tilt my head now for it to become clear which is easy enough but very strange at first.:confused:

The only Negative I found so far is that it's slightly more akward to hold and clamp material but again I'm adapting and changing how I do it and it's becoming easier and certainly not a problem or hassle just different.!. . . . . . Oh and I miss having the rest of the table to dump shit onto. .:whistling:

James I haven't filled the space with one single machine yet.!!!. . . . . . I'm just slowly filling it with enough steel for two.! :rofl:

came across this little monkey whilst googleising a few options....
Attachment 5484

looks quite nice.... me want...!

G

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Originally Posted by georgetheforge

looks quite nice.... me want...!

G

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Easy pezzy lemon squeezy and thats just how I would do it if starting from scratch. Now imagine having that static in one place against wall with folding or sliding doors to keep all the mess and noise inside.

Honestly the difference working vertical makes is great and no more difficult than when horizontal. For mostly wood working and board use then they are perfect layout IMO.!!

Hi Jazz,

Where do you get that resin impregnated MDF as seen in your vertical CNC video?

Hadn't thought about this before, but it would be great to gain back some of the floor space taken up by my 4'x4' CNC hot wire foam cutter. The table is even larger than 4x4. And certainly reaching over the surface is difficult now.

The only things to work out would be clamping methods. Presently I just use weights to hold the foam down. Foam has very little weight itself, but isn't easily clamped, since pressure needs to applied over a larger surface area than other harder materials. But I'm sure the other advantages would outweigh the disadvantage of more difficult clamping. Incidentally, for foam cutting purposes, the table itself could be built less stiff for a vertical cofiguration -- a horizontal table foam cutter mainly has to support its own weight to avoid sag -- well, and the weight of all of the junk that gets inevitably piled on it when not in use! Vertical orientation would sure cure that, wouldn't it?

I like it!


EDIT: Thinking further about it, when wire cutting foam there is often movement of the blank's top surface because the cut weakens the blank -- there may be some thin sections (with substantial kerf) that develop during a part cut. Usually you sequence your cuts so that the foam movement occurs above cuts rather than below -- the base is stationary and a reference.

By using weights on a horizontal table, the blank is still held to the table, even if the top of the blank drops a little. For a vertical table, we would need clamps that automatically adjust for this. So, probably spring loaded large area pads would be required for a conventional clamp.


FURTHER EDIT: Maybe a clamp pad made of two layers of thin sheet material -- say 2" x 6" x 1/8" , with a layer of sponge rubber glued between would work for this. With several of these pads made up I could use conventional clamps.

I presume the weight of the gantry and Z and spindle will have a greater effect on the motors when used this way up ?

If you were pushing the motors to the limit when horizontal, then surely they would stall when up on end ?

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Originally Posted by TrickyCNC

I presume the weight of the gantry and Z and spindle will have a greater effect on the motors when used this way up ?

If you were pushing the motors to the limit when horizontal, then surely they would stall when up on end ?

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I think the short answer is "it all depends". clearly the ideal(ish) option is for the gantry to traverse horizontally in X so the Y is vertical and only the cutting head/Z-axis has to be lifted against gravity, but then you lose the benefit of having the chips fall into clear space. Unless your X-rails are space out from the bed in some way.

Of course, you shouldnt be running near the stall point anyway, there's a high chance you'll lose steps on fast direction changes if you do...

I was thinking more of the smallest footprint, would have the gantry rising and falling, otherwise it would mean the gantry is longer than needs be. If it'son it's side so to speak, then yes, the weight would not be an issue.

Weight would still be an issue, just for the Y-axis not X, plus Z should go faster.

Presumably before Jazz 'went vertical' he had a decent safety margin in his X-axis feedrates so he just used up some of this. Just as an example, if your X-axis ballscrews are 10mm pitch and the mass of the gantry is 50kg, then making it vertical will require 50g=490N more force to lift it, which corresponds to:
T=FLe/(2pi)=490*0.01*0.9/(2*3.142)=0.7Nm extra torque required.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

Presumably before Jazz 'went vertical' he had a decent safety margin in his X-axis feedrates so he just used up some of this.

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Yep Exactly.!

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Originally Posted by irving2008

I think the short answer is "it all depends". clearly the ideal(ish) option is for the gantry to traverse horizontally in X so the Y is vertical and only the cutting head/Z-axis has to be lifted against gravity, but then you lose the benefit of having the chips fall into clear space. Unless your X-rails are space out from the bed in some way.

Of course, you shouldnt be running near the stall point anyway, there's a high chance you'll lose steps on fast direction changes if you do...

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If you see my first post it explains how it came about being in the vertical position. It wasn't my first choice and if building from scratch then I'd run the gantry horizontal has it's a no brainer to why. . . . Other things aren't so obvious untill you've run it in this position.?
Little things like avoiding chip collection areas so need careful thought re-covers for Z axis, ball-screws etc to stop chips building up on rails or end bearings. The ball-screws on X axis will be better positioned behind the bed again to protect from falling chips. Not a problem in the vertical position.

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Originally Posted by TrickyCNC

I presume the weight of the gantry and Z and spindle will have a greater effect on the motors when used this way up ?

If you were pushing the motors to the limit when horizontal, then surely they would stall when up on end ?

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Yes would have an affect if at motors limit but then Like Irving points out that's a bad idea in any case or machine. Pushing the max is one of the most common causes of missed steps and positional errors.
My machine is capable of nearly 12mtr/min but I run it at 7mtr/min in favour of acceleration. I always leave a minimum of 10% safety on velocity and often more like in this case when wanting higher acceleration. In all the time I've run this machine it hasn't ever missed a step or lost position unless I've caused it by hitting something, even then it takes a lot to stop it which wouldn't be the case if I run it anywhere near the motors corner speed.

When tipped vertical it made no difference to performance and still has enough torque to cut heavy depths. The video of it cutting 10mm single pass was 5mtr/min but it actually cut another at full 7mtr/min and then for the final test it cut full material thickness of 12.5mm single pass @7mtr/min with no problem until the really really knackerd cutter snapped.!! . . But the machine didn't stall it just kept on going like nothing happened.!!

counter balance the gantry.

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Originally Posted by i2i

counter balance the gantry.

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But there's no need it really isn't an issue.!!

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Originally Posted by i2i

counter balance the gantry.

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Thanks for that brilliant addition to Jazz's vertical concept i2i !!!

With me designing from scratch, I've been faffing about trying different ways to shield the rails and ballscrews from falling chips with a lateral travelling gantry, and think the vertical-travelling counter-balanced gantry solves all these issues.

I can't think of any problems if I counter-balance using free-running pulleys... one above each X-Axis rail end... I was going to use a 3Nm stepper on the horizontal and think this will still work on the vertical.

Am I over simplifying the idea?