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I'm sure some of you will of probably seen this, but there's currently a BT/ISO 15 ATC over on kickstarter - CNC BT15/ISO15 ATC Spindle Cartridge and Spindle Shaft Kit by Dale Walsh — Kickstarter
Looks quite promising, and I am very tempted for future use.
There are various options ranging from $10 just for the plans, to $2500 for a full spindle, air cylinder and 30 tool holders.
A complete spindle on it's own is $775, although it's not to clear on what's included with that option.
Not clear???Quote:
Originally Posted by m_c
Each reward is clearly explained about what will be provided, $775.00 spindle cartridge only, no tool holders no air cylinder, just the spindle cartridge.
The prices of the rewards are the production cost, there is no profit and before you make any foolish remarks about being able to make the same product/quality cheaper, consider that there is $394.00 USD in the two front bearings alone, the remaining $381.00 for material, machining, tempering, hardening and precision grinding and did I mention the petal-clamp, this clearly demonstrates mass production without profit so how could you produce it cheaper without making major sacrifices is not possible.
And the only reason I can get the bearings for $197.00ea is that we regularly buy 500 matched pairs per order at work and I add on what I need, if I had to buy the bearings retail, the cost would be more than $325.00ea for cheaper NSK sealed AC bearings and it would then be impossible to produce it for $775.00.
-- Dale Walsh
I don't think m_c was saying he could make or get any of it cheaper, so please do not accuse people of making 'foolish remarks' when they've just asked a simple question.Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecnc
I look forward to seeing where this goes as I certainly would like an ATC spindle.
I to would love an ATC spindle, hopefully on my next machine :-) Looks like a great project and its now fully funded, will be great to see some of the finished articles, will keep a close eye on it and report back :-)
Cheers
Stuart
The remark was directed at anyone considering making a post about cheaper production and not at any one particular person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
In the past, I have produced ATC router spindles in ISO20 size, the issue is the price, the first response is usually "I can buy something similar in china for about $1,000.00 less" and from my perspective, anyone making this claim deserves to buy the china ATC router spindle because their sole purchasing factor is the price.
It is a known fact that china copied my air-cooled square body ER20 router spindle (and did a lousy job at it) and I can't compete with their price unless I use the same low-quality bearings, stator and rotor and this is not an option for me.
This doesn't include the warranty nightmare I've encountered by people trying to get me to warranty their china spindle and they think I'm just trying to avoid providing the warranty.
My stator and rotor do not fit in the china copy, the spindles are physically different sizes and their is no way to put a 82mm OD stator in a 70mm ID body or that the china body itself is 78mm shorter and if it did fit would stick out the top and bottom.
There are some who have purchased the china copy and then purchased one of mine and they all report the differences in just using it is night and day.
I warranty my products, I ensure the purchaser has no issues obtaining warranty but I can't offer warranty for a product that isn't mine and I wont use substandard parts in an attempt to make a profit or reduce the price if it has no life expectancy.
I would be extremely surprised if you could find anyone who has previously purchased a spindle of any type from me that would have anything negative to report about it, most have made repeat purchases as they add new machines to their production line.
When the production run with the updated body is finished, I'll post a picture on my website for those who want to see the finished product.
Unfortunately I'm not a business, I don't have a store or a web-store (or the time to manage one) and my efforts are in helping those home/hobby users who want something at the lowest possible price I can offer it for.
When companies like A2Z or Sherline contact me expressing interest in a product, they argue that I've offered a lower price to somewhere or sometime and refuse to pay more so I just stop communicating with them, they expect a profit and in all fairness I expect one too.
It's not like they contracted me to design a product for them and their retail prices usually exceeds the majority of the home/hobby users budget so I have no incentive to provide them with anything.
The reason that no one else makes such a product is the production cost versus Fair Market Value (MFV) are almost equal so the target market is usually something specialized that is willing to pay considerably more and this does not promote home/hobby CNC.
Real spindle motors are another hard to get item at a reasonable price, real as in an asynchronous servo spindle motor (2.2KW/3.0KW) 10,000RPM with an encoder in a small (140mm x 140mm) footprint (pic on website).
GSK CNC panels, I can offer anyone a GSK980MDa1 panel cheaper than they can buy it anywhere else because I am an authorized GSK dealer (long story no interest to repeat it) and when companies try to take advantage of my pricing they are disappointed that I wont play ball.
There are many people producing products under the guise that they are promoting the home/hobby CNC market but when they do it with a substantial profit, in my opinion they are only promoting their wallets.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against profit but surely someone can produce a product at a bearable price even sacrificing quality a little or funcitonality
Our group probably has about 30 plans for VMC frames and we have looked into having these produced but it always ends up the same, high engineering and mold/pattern expenses and high MOQ's prevent them from coming to fruition so all that is really available is overpriced poorly designed VMC frames from china and we aren't interested in offering them.
The spindle was scheduled for production regardless of kickstarter, kickstarter only allowed people the opportunity to get one at production cost, these people are the lucky ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuboy
One of the guys in our group has expressed an interest to make a production run later to stock and sell the product, unfortunately he expects a profit for his time, financial investment and resources so I don't know what the price will be but following typical retail markup, it will probably be around $1200.00 for just the cartridge.
There are some factories in china producing BT15-ER20 tool holders so 1/2in tooling is possible but we don't have this size produced for us so I can't offer it.
Dale I was and still are very interested in your spindles but the only thing that stopped me was the fact I want larger tool sizes and BT30 would be preferred option so do you have any plans for cartridges of this size.?
Also what's the news on the Motors with encoders I saw you post about a while back.?
I've been producing BT30 cartridges for several years now, you can see a picture of it on my website.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I've already submitted three consecutive orders for the asynchronous servo spindle motor and two orders for factory programmed closed loop 4.0KW VFD's to run them and this is noted in updates on kickstarter.
The cost is $750.00 plus shipping, we wind the stator, build the rotor, send it to china and viola, we have a real spindle motor at a very low price.
At least with the motors I only have an MOQ of 5pcs but I've sold 11 times this in the three orders, more than the number of cartridges I've sold
What people fail to understand is that I have nothing on a shelf to sell, I am not doing this as a business, I have no inventory on hand or the money to waste on inventory, I don't have a store or web-store or time to manage one and if I do these things the money for these resources has to come from somewhere (this is what profit is for and I have none).
If you're looking for videos, fancy documentation, long drawn out conversations to educate you on the product and it's use or anything more than a simple picture of the product, you will find I have little interest in making the time to provide these, I will make little effort to convince you to buy anything from me as I do not directly benefit from the sale, I promote the products availability and expect the purchaser to know what he wants.
What I do is build to order and allow the home/hobby user the opportunity to get a product at production cost which they wouldn't otherwise be able to get.
I'm easily annoyed by the e-mails from people who think a BT15/ISO15 cartridge should only cost $200.00 and demand I sell them one for this price cause it's all they can afford but I find it easier to tell them they'll get one as soon as I get the order for 2,000,000 units that I'm waiting for and then ignore future communications.
Unless you need 10pcs of BT30 spindle cartridges the wait is long as two specific customer products can't be offered due to proprietary technology (multi-port rotary unions) and when a production run occurs for the BT30 spindle cartridge provided to Servo Products, you have a very short time (3-4 days) to make a decision and pay for your cartridge if you want one and, when it comes time to pay, if your payment is not received in time you lose, I can't delay production because you need time to come up with the funds.
Production cost for a basic BT30 spindle cartridge and air-cylinder is $1615.00 plus shipping, the specific mechanical details are based on the customer making the order but are typically 8,000RPM BT30 spindle cartridges and, if you are ordering 10pcs, your not a home/hobby user and your not paying this price unless your ordering 50pcs.
The BT15/ISO15 cartridge offered on Kickstarter is entirely my design so no one can cry about who I sell it to as long as the 25pcs MOQ is met, I at least had enough prior notice to give people ample time, this isn't always the case.
All clamps and shafts are USA made (I want them made correctly), the rest is done in china where it's cheap and the big companies like HAAS and Servo Products do this so don't preach to me about giving work away and putting people on unemployment, if they'd work for a reasonable rate all the work would be done in USA.
Federico Pozzi, the sales manager from IMS s.a.s. wants $575.00 for an ISO15 petal clamp with an MOQ of 20pcs, he'd do $420.00 for 100pcs and $365.00 for 500pcs (I have the e-mail to prove it), once we figured out the manufacturing trick we can do it dirt cheap in comparison, hell, if I could make 500pcs the cost would be about $75.00 each.
We can make the router ISO15 petal-clamp for $65.00 with an MOQ of 25pcs and someone bought 25pcs of petal clamp plus 25pcs of my 3.0KW stators (made in USA) plus 25pcs of my rotors (made in USA) and 25pcs of my bodies (made in China), made his own shaft and rolled his own ISO15-ER20 router spindles for dirt cheap and I had hoped he would sell them because it would have been a really cheap solution for a lot of people who want ATC in a disposable product.
I say disposable because he used the cheapest china bearings he could find (about $30.00 for the pair of AC's with light pre load) and the entire cost per unit was about $900.00 and I'm surprised that none have detonated after more than a year of full production environment usage.
Next will be the tool changer for the BT15/ISO spindle cartridge, it will be designed/configured as the customer needs which is currently for 6/12 tool holders (it might change later to 8/16), if you want one great, if not, you can find or build your own and I'm working it out so there will be at least 30 days to give people time to come up with the funds as they just shelled out for motors, VFD's and cartridges.
Ok will be in touch at some point regards BT30 I'm happy to wait and payup front if need be.!
Can I just say thou we are not the Zone here and we don't expect spindles for nothing so you won't get all the shit you get on the zone.
So really no need for the defensive tones of your messages, I understand why because of all the shit i've seen you take on the zone etc but honestly here it will just put our backs up.!!
Carry on the good work I for one think your doing a great job. . :thumsup: . . . Thou don't mind admitting at first I was sceptical and a little untrusting but I've watched closely so know your Ok.
Yes, I'll admit it, I am a little short and a few other forums are the contributing factor to my abrupt behavior so while I'm in my infancies here, perhaps the calm and soothing demeanor will rub off on me and I wont be so quick to pounce at the mere implication or subtle hints of impropriety.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I'm zoned out, I've concluded that the meager few I've help there isn't worth the abuse I've received there and so far, even though I've been harsh, everyone seems to let it blow off rather than pour gasoline on the fire and this tells me my experiences here will be different so I will make a conscious effort to keep myself in check but have no issues with a deserved pounding if the powers that be decide I've crossed the line and need my head slapped.
What I have noticed, 37 of the 55 spindle motors ordered are going to the UK, 9 of the 14 cartridges are going to the UK, don't you guys have anyone actively promoting the CNC hobby with reasonably priced products or is it every man for himself and people interested in helping have no guidance or direction? (not a complaint but a question)
Kinda nice to be part of a group that does this but the sheer number of product requests we receive make it impossible for us to achieve more than 10% of them and there is only so much I can do or are capable of doing.
Some weeks the flood of emails inquiring about products is so overwhelming I wish I had someone else to pass off some of the projects too but my biggest fear is that they will turn it into a profit-for-self project which doesn't help the hobby community.
I'm also dissatisfied that no one else is attempting to make or provide opportunities for reasonably priced products that are needed and that the general motivation is purely for financial gain and the failures are due to the products price.
Tooling is a prime example, taking into consideration that tooling manufacturers want to produce things in the quantity of 500pcs or more and I can understand this, it's almost impossible to get any of them to make something in a quantity of 20pcs or less. want 5pcs of something and the answer is definitely no, luckily, one of the china factories shares our enthusiasm and has agreed to make tooling as the need arises as long as we can provide some technical informaiton or drawings so getting him to produce an indexable face mill in BT15 with an MOQ of 10pcs is not a problem, he realizes that in doing so, later orders are usually significantly higher quantity, he just made us (making now) 6pcs of BT15-APU8 (8mm - 5/16in) medium duty CNC rated precision keyless drill chucks and these were well received by the project backers.
Another example, an extremely high precision probe (1/10,000th resolution) for less than $75.00 with a small profit is possible but the people I gave my schematic and prototype too have turned it into an expensive product with a 300% profit margin so the hobby community lost out because I had no control once these left my possession and no way to make them honor their word in making the product available at a reasonable price.
If I had the financial resources to stock products I'd do it but the overhead would be outside of what I could afford and obtaining financial backing involves high yield returns on the investment that is not a viable option when no profit exists.
I'm hoping in November I can post a project for a BT20/ISO20 spindle cartridge as the customer who made the initial order for 10pcs of BT15/ISO15 spindle cartridges has expressed an interest in this size as well.
We also made VMC frames for him and I know these are for in-house use and we sold off the extra columns (with linear rails installed) almost immediately for basically the cost of the materials so when he gives the go-ahead for the BT20/ISO20 I'll do a kickstarter for it for those who want this size.
MAN, can I be long-winded or what!!!!!
I for one find it incredibly refreshing to know that people with your attitude still exist, keep up the good work M8
OK, unfortunately with all of the fourms and all of the inquiries I'm recieving, it is impossible to answer each one directly and for those who were unable to message me due to a full box I have made it very simple to contact me in real time.
I now have a website, Click Here, I also have an IRC set up irc.dalecnc.com so you can contact me directly (requires IRC client software, not accessibly by browser).
The overwhelming number of tire kickers sending me PM's on various forums and by e-mail has forced me to ignore most of them cause as one person I can't handle the 200-300 pieces I'm getting a day.
If you believe I should be able to sell you a cartridge for $200.00 becuase you think that is all it's worth, please don't insult your self by contacting me and demanding one for this price, the front bearings alone cost $400.00 so it would be impossible to give it to you for that ridiculous price.
If you want intelligent questions answered I recommend you contact me in my IRC as it is doubtful I will repsond to further PM's or e-mail.