hello Everybody.
is there such a beast as a complete conversion kit for the Ama25lv (or its clones). I need everything from electronics to steppers, brackets and ball screws. Is there a decent one stop shop in the UK?
Thanks
Jon
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hello Everybody.
is there such a beast as a complete conversion kit for the Ama25lv (or its clones). I need everything from electronics to steppers, brackets and ball screws. Is there a decent one stop shop in the UK?
Thanks
Jon
Hi Jon,
I don't think you can get a COMPLETE system. You will most probably be able to get the ball screws, steppers and ali mounting plates in a basic pack, but that is only a tiny part of a conversion.
I am just about to start the conversion of a Sieg Super X2, and even though a totally different machine, conversion costs will be roughly the same.
I never start a job until I have EVERY little bit in position, I just won't stop once started.
Including an el cheapo second hand computer and a 15" bombproof touch screen (£114 for everything) off our favourite bidding site, the rough costs up until now have been somewhere between £850 -£900, but that does include a trailing Mach 3 control handset, and a new 4" fourth axis rotary table, which requires it's own conversion.
If I had gone for a commercial unit, by looking at ones supplied from the US, I would have ended up with lower standard ball screws and a compromised movement system for the Z axis, easy to fit but crap for moving the head up and down.
By doing it the way I will be, not only will I be getting a more rigid, better made and a more accurate system, it will also be of better quality and a lot cheaper, purely because I took the time to shop around.
Just to give an example, the whole control box for 4 axis with a USB breakout board and 4 stepper controllers has cost about £230 if I include all the smaller items such as cooling fans, plugs and sockets, crimps and smaller 12 volt power supplies as well.
It isn't the normal bits that cost the most money, but the ancilliaries you don't usually think about until you are half way through the job.
Take your time and plan well.
John
Thanks John for the heads up!
Wiring and controls are to me easy (I,m a controls engineer) The ball screws are confusing me, as to what length, size, C7 or whatever that means. What do I want on the ends. Can I turn the ends to suit on my lathe. Then there's the gcode to learn!
Thanks John for your help.
I am looking at these.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Leadsh...item418644b274
Any thoughts??
Obviously plus ballscrews, balls, mountings, software, pc etc.
Jon,
Going along that route I would think you will run out of cash very quickly.
I can't give you exact items as most of mine will be different, as in ball screws.
These people have very good prices but you will need to find someone to give you the correct lengths you would require to be made.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1605776038...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I made the mistake of ordering machined ends on mine, but that won't cause me any troubles as I will just re-machine one of them.
Angular contact bearings for X & Y between stepper coupling and screw and Z between thread and pulley.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1904893549...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
For electronic bits, if going for 3 axis, the you require 3 off of these.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1407491526...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Plus one of these if wanting it to run off a USB port on your Mach3 computer and if ever you are going to fit a rotary table driven by CNC.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2613958360...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Plugs and sockets + other bits can be obtained from these places.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3612242481...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3103952509...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2715681514...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3014217997...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1214462544...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
For my computer bits I just searched on Ebay for a cheap 64 bit computer to run Windows XP for mach 3 and a 15" touch screen monitor.
These are just links to the ones I bought, you will have to search for your own
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1215661110...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1215635847...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Plus a few other bits
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3312092616...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
You don't want to go using a wireless keyboard or mouse, it can interfere with the touch screen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2515955875...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Small power supplies for case fans and the back end of the breakout board.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2908836881...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Main supply case to put everything in, yours might be smaller (or larger) depending how tidy you are.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2313254312...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
These are just a few basic items, you will also need a 48 volt transformer for the stepper drivers and four steppers, which you can find cheap enough on Ebay, I was lucky, I got four steppers and my power supply from a good friend at cost.
On top of all this you will need lots of cable and thick pieces of ali plate to mount the steppers onto your machine.
I just can't list everything here, just most of the major stuff to give you some ideas on costs.
John
Wow!
Thanks John for taking the time to share all that info. That's probably about six months research for me. Now all I need to do is click on each link and understand what I am looking at....
Thank you again
Jon
Don't worry Jon, I was in the same position a few months ago when I started on my journey.
If it wasn't for a good friend guiding me along the way and explaining to me what everything was for, I would have been in the same position as yourself.
I am lucky in that I have almost 50 years machining in my background, and some of that in the computer peripherals industry, so I can understand that side of things.
It is the CAD/CAM and Mach 3 that is going to be the killer for me. As you get older, it gets more difficult to bump start the old brain cells.
John
Hi,
Please Don't take this wrong way John as I'm not putting or pulling you down but some of those suggestions I wouldn't take up on. Here's why.
The Drives are cheap but they are old analog techonlogy often easily affected by Resonance which affects performance and smoothness of motors. So With converting a milling machine which are often using a ratio then the operating rpm of the motors will fall in the mid band region of the drive/motor that is most affected by resoancne so not ideal really. Esp given that mills tend to be stiff and resonant anyway.
Newer digital drives are much better at handling resonance, giving a very smooth running motor, esp at lower speeds. Those Leadshine Closed loop steppers while expensive are perfect for creating a very accurate milling machine as they are Digital and Closed loop so very accurate, they are also 3 phase with 1.2deg step angle so give finer resolution with a very smooth motion.
The Motion control card is a good idea but not USB.! Ethernet is by far better.
I've tried just about every motion control card (including this one) and all that use USB give troubles in some way at some point. This is often down to electrical noise or the PC and how it's configured regards USB but still USB is flaky in my experience and prone to dropping out.
Often people blame control software when troubles starts when in fact it's often the USB port dropping out or being affected by some other windows process. This Esp true if the device is solely relying on the USB for power rather than having an external power source. USB is rubbish at providing stable power and should never be used or trusted.
For ballscrews then either Chai at linear motion bearings or Fred Lee on Ali express are the men to see. Either will machine ballscrews to any dimension you send and really not worth trying to do your self for what they charge. Fred Lee is the one I'd use as is screws do seem slightly better quality than Chai's.
If your converting a mill you may want to look at better quality than Class 7 (C7) and look towards C5. If you want much better then go for ground screws rather than rolled. Only use good quality angular contact bearings in nice solid and sealed mount as they take a pounding which soon becomes backlash.!!
The suggestions made by John will get you going and work ok-ish while being resonably cheap but IMO it's false economy as often components are much lower quality so die quicker with high potential for reliabilty troubles. The performance is often compromised by rough running motors or poor quality giving relliabilty issues with high potential for sleepless nights and much frustration. In my experience with all things CNC it really does payoff to spend that bit more on the electronics.
Some will say there machine runs fine with cheap components which maybe they think it does.? But often that is because they have never experienced a machine that uses quality parts and is setup correctly.!! . . . . . Many times i've visited machines which the owner never even knew they had issues with resonance etc and just accepted that was the Max performance the machine was capable off. When infact it was running like can of marbles and capable of much more with far smoother running motors.!
Jazz,
Not one bit of animosity felt at all.
It is fine going down your route, but in all honesty, even though it will produce a much finer machine, can everyone afford to go down that route?
It has been worked out (and not just by me) that by going down the route I am, I should be able to produce an acceptable working machine for less than £1600, and that includes the cost for mill and 4 axis RT.
I am fairly new to this electronic sort of work in the shop, except for building a Divisionmaster for my large mill, that is why I called in help from a very good friend who designs machines for the average model engineers we have now, in fact he designed and made the protos for the hobby CNC machines produced by Sieg, which although based on old technology, are doing sterling service in many thousands of home workshops.
Well we are on the same road again, making two of the same machines, just that one is geared towards the self assembler as a bolt on kit and mine, which will use a better engineeredand machined unit, takes a little more time and effort, but in the end works much better mechanically
It is the old addage about a Mini and a Rolls, they both get you there in the end, just that one costs 5 times as much to cover the same distance.
OK going for all the latest and most expensive pieces, and I am sure that yours would be a much superior machine, but for what I need, and most probably what another 95% of modell engineers require as well, going down the route I am will be perfectly acceptable.
I remember in the mid 80's having a new CNC Bridgeport delivered to our model shop. Except for size of work it could do, these small home built machines would knock spots off what the Bridgy could do.
It is all about progress. In 10 years, your stuff will most probably totally out of date. Some of us are just a little behind the times, but we do still have a little bit of cash left in our wallets.
John
I have an MD trapezoidal A4 size machine which screeches when I (fast) move the X axis, but not always. I have packed out the mount for the delrin nut so that it is aligned properly, but the noise persists. Is this resonance ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Cheers,
Rob
Would that be my Old mate and partner in crime John Stevenson your refering to . ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bogstandard
While I understand what your saying about " Mini and Rolls" I still don't agree.! . . . Problem is this game is not an exact science and every machine is different, even if the same Make and model using same parts.
Each machine will and does react different regards resonance, also the combination of this plus drives motors etc affects tuning and how the machine performs and it doesn't always go to plan. Which if compounded by poor components, poorly assembled and wired can lead to a very frustrating time.
You are lucky as you have I presume John helping and advising who is very experienced but others are not so lucky and they don't have the luxury to be able to turn to knowledable person when plan goes south.!! . . . I help lots of people in this exact situation and this lack of knowledge combined with poor components is the most common cause of there troubles and frustrations.
Yes often I get them working quick enough and using the parts they bought but often the machine is capable of so much more and limited by components or build quality.
Also often the poor quality electronic parts or one part in particular, Ie BOB's are the reason for there troubles and if they'd bought decent electronics in first place they'd have been working weeks or months sooner and still have all there hair.!!
I'm long in the tooth know at this game and IME there really is no substitute for quality electronics. They really do pay off in the end.
Can't say Rob from that description but knowing just how Crap those MD machines are made I'd be more inclined to blame the machine than the drives if only does it at full rapid speed.!!Quote:
Originally Posted by cropwell
Can you video or record the sound it makes as this will be easier to tell.
Thanks gents.
If I buy the ballscrews, is it possible to cut them and turn the ends on my lathe or are they super tough? Would it be easier to get them cut at source like Zapp automation offer. But what length and fittings do I want? I know I need ballscrews, ball nuts. but what goes on the ends bearing and mounting wise?
Well depends on your lathe and your abilty's really. You'll need Collet chuck to hold the screws as 3 or 4 jaw won't be good enough. How hard depends on the screw quality. Often chinese screws are only case hardened and not very deep so can be turned with correct tooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatoftheland
Better quality screws are hardened deeper. Often the ends are ground not turned on harder quality screws, I know for sure Zapp grind not turn.
How you fasten the ends will depend on the conversion but in all cases at least one end will be "fixed" and use 2 x angular contact bearings fixed in a ridged housing of some kind to stop the screw floating. Often with mill screws being short then only one end of screw is fastened the "fixed" end and other end is left unsupported.
On longer length screws you would support both ends with bearings but only one end is Fixed and the other bearing free to float in it's housing to allow for expansion.
Really regards length and what exactly is required no one except someone who's done the exact same machine can tell you and even then I wouldn't trust without checking your own machine as castings etc change and often clearences, esp around the ballnuts are tight so best working from your own measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Having converted some machines I have to agree. Either pay the money or learn to live with backlash, lost steps and generally inferior results. Since going C3 ballscrews, hybrid servo steppers and a ethernet smoothstepper with good breakout boards, my dro matches my mach3 dro every time. Money well spent in my mind
So Komatias, What smartstepper do you use and which breakout boards. I like the look of the c3 screws and also closed loop servo systems. I know I am talking a good bit of money but I can lose most of it through my business.
Regards
Jon
Also sent you a message to your website.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatoftheland
Hi Jon,
Without question the Smoothstepper to get is the Ethernet version. It is very reliable, has more onboard memory and is the one that Warp9 are looking to keep for future development (Mach 4 etc). I have had the USB cut out when the spindle motor would start or stop, in one case it happened when my girlfriend switched the oven on :culpability:.
I am a big fan of the Leadshine hybrid servos due to the value for money they represent. Yes they are steppers and have the issue of decreasing torque as rpm increases but then again I know I am not losing steps and I can fit 3 axes for the price of one servo and driver. The Leadshine hybrid servos need to be driven by the paired driver so you need to buy the motor and driver. The drivers will need the usual DC voltage supply and a step/direction input. For the machine you re looking at you could probably use the Nema 23 3Nm motor and matching driver through a 2:1 reduction. The step/dir signal is given to the drivers from the motion controller, e.g. Smoothstepper, via a breakout board.
For the breakout board you will need to decide what control line voltage you want to use. 3.3V is too low in my mind, so I would suggest 5V, 12V or 24V. This will potentially govern which breakout board you will be able to use. I use 5V for most applications as it is easy to use some power from USB but also because the drive powersupplies I bought had a 5V auxiliary output. The breakout board does not have to be fancy, it can only be there to protect the expensive motion controller and computer or if you want a bit more it can also incorporate relays, switches etc. I like to have solid state relays and place them away from the electronic hence I like the C25 terminal boards: http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=187
Most BOB's have a LPT type connector anyway and screw terminals. Take your pick.
The C3 screws have a measured max 0.008mm (8micrometer!!!) deviation per 300mm of travel. They are ground and come with an inspection certificate. Considering that any mill will be lucky to hit 0.02mm consistently I say that is one thing less to worry about. Because of the near perfect nature of the C3 screws, you can truly preload the nut and have a single nut do what other try and do with two nuts and springs, spacers and all manner of contraption. The axial forces will not be that big so a light preload should suffice. It does come with a price typically 6X that of the standard C7 roller screws and a standard lead time of 8-12weeks.
By the way when suppliers say zero backlash, that does not give you an indication of the preload amount. It just means that under no load there is no backlash.
Now, since you have gone with the ground C3 ballscrews, you may as well go full hog and get proper ballscrew mounting supports and bearings. Again, preload is important. You can either buy a complete flange type mount or just make you own hardware, the actual bearings though should be such that they do not have backlash built in. There are special angular contact bearings that fit the bill.
As for the belts etc, I like to use taperlok type pulleys or ones that are correctly keyed with HTD belts. Zero lash, strong and easy to fit.
I hope the above does not ruffle any feathers in the "I can do it cheaper" camp. The fact is it all comes down to what you want from your machine.
Regards
George
Sorry you have this very wrong.!! . . . The Breakout board(BOB) is everything and THE biggest bottle neck and cause of trouble to any machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias
All the signals from your Expensive motion controller go thru the BOB so if it's a cheap device with slow opto's then no point having a motion controller that's capable of 4Mhz if the BOB opto's are restricted to 100khz causing a bottle neck.!!
Like wise no point having those nice clean pulses coming from the motion controller if the poor quality BOB is going to distort and mess with them.!!
Bells and whistle's like Relays yes you can do without but not when it comes to quality of Motor Output signals and for this you need a quality BOB to match your motion controller.
Personally I wouldn't use any BOB with a Smooth stepper other than the PMDX 126. The C25 or any of the Cnc4Pc boards can't hold a Candle to PMDX products. I've got several Cnc4Pc boards here in my scrap/replaced Bin but you won't find any PMDX boards in there.!!
Now Jon if you want the BEST motion controller you want Cslabs Csmio products. They are not the cheapest but they are certainly the best by a long way in this price range.
I've used most motion controllers now and Non come close in performance, reliabilty and quailty. They DONT require a break out board like others with all input/outputs going directly to motion controller via supplied Terminal blocks to avoid exactly the Bottle neck problems mentioned above.
They use 24V Differential I/O so are very noise immune. Again far better than any other motion controller I've ever used. So much so that I can use my machine while welding with high frequency Tig welder right next to the CNC machine running on the same Ring main circuit. (Try that with a EtherNet smooth stepper and see what happens.!!)
Then we have the Software side, Warp9 or should say Greg the maker of the Smooth stepper are disgrace when it comes to Software upgrades or resolving issues. The software plug-ins are poor and Buggy and rarely updated unless half the world jumps up and down at same time. If you have a problem specific to your setup getting Greg to listen or acknowledge is like trying to get an audience with the Queen.
Cslabs on the other hand don't have many issues with Software to start with and the Plug-ins just work perfectly. If they do find bugs they are often very minor and release updates straight away. They also are constantly improving software and releasing updates.
If you do have a Specific issue to your system they will reply in resonable amount of time and often come up with an answer to the problem. (Often it's you not them to Blame.!!. . . .Don't ask how I know that.!! . .Lol)
Again you really do get what you pay for and no point having best of anything unless all the system is matched and balanced. Any machine is only as good as the weakest link and all too often that weak link is the BOB.!!
Thank you.
Thats a lot of info I have to look at and understand. When ordering ballscrews do I just measure the old ones or is a preferred way of mounting and fixing them
Cheers
Jon
Please don't take this wrong way jon but the fact you are asking these questions suggests you haven't done enough research and maybe you should take a step back before purchasing anything and checkout exactly what's involved with converting a manual mill to CNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatoftheland
Like I said further down in post #15 no one except those who have converted the exact same machine can answer your questions. Converting a manual mill all too often means you'll have to adapt and access your individual machine as there will be very few off the shelf parts which bolt straight on.
Often you'll need bespoke end mounts to allow for clearence or at best adaptions to off the shelf units. Often you'll need adaptions to the table or frame to make room for the ballnut which is often larger than lead screw nut or mounted completely differently to how Lead nut fits.!
I would start by being honest with your self and asking if your capable of converting.??. . If answer is Yes then take a good hard look at your machine to see whats involved. Take measurements of clearences etc and then look at whats available or can be adapted.
Personally i'd start by doing much more research and checking what others have had to do to convert there mills to CNC.
Thanks Jazzcnc
I am definitely doing my homework on this, I haven't even bought the mill yet! I intend to convert the mill myself and at the very best quality I can afford. I will spend the next few months researching as much as possible and will bugging the life out of you guys on this forum. I am an electrical /mechanical engineer by trade so hopefully can pull it off! Its' just the terminology and sifting through the information that's proving difficult at the moment.
Ah well when a I said don't buy anything yet that doesn't include the Mill.!!. . . . You'll need that bugger. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Fatoftheland
Is there anybody who sell hardware to convert that mill - LongVersion?
Looking for ballscrews, mounting plates for: ballscrew, nuts and motors.
Ideally if handle can remain so can be used as conventional mill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom J
I am working on that right now. Two versions in the pipeline, servo and expensive ballscrews, steppers and cheap ballscrews. Both with handles.
ATV the moment I am designing based on my EMV-25VBB but also have the parts that will allow use on the ama series.
The trick is not to have to machine the casting and that is what you can expect from my kit
I understand that kit won't be kind of straight fit, as Y slide have to be machined to fit ballscrew nut.Quote:
Originally Posted by komatias
My idea of buying such a kit is to do minimum work and fairly quick change over, so kit have to be design and machined to exact mill - AMA25LV.
I have control box with nema 34 motors and all home/limit switches.
I decided to use cheap steppers with digital drive rather than servos as this machine is not accurate anyway so no point to spend extra money as I won't gain anything decent.
Please give mee the quote for mechanical parts:
brackets/plates
both ballscrews c5 or c3 and c7
Thanks
Tom
Tom,
I do not know which kit you are refering to. I have a way to avoid machining the castings.
Nema 34's will be overkill but I will provide an adaptor if you are desperate to use the kit your bought.
As I said, I am developing it currently so pricing will come when it is all sorted.
Send me a PM with your email address an I will keep you informed of progress.
Nama 34 would be for Z, Nema 24 for X and Y have to calculateQuote:
Originally Posted by komatias
Attachment 20823
I was refer to space for ballscrew nut - there is not enough room for even RM16
Could you upload picture or give the link of your kit please?
Cheers
Tom
Not going to upload just yet to the public, but rest assured the I you will not need to machine the castings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom J
Good day Jon
Leadshine is far to expensive for hobby machine like that. Machine spindle is not capable to do HSC, limit yourself for federates up to 2m/min >>ballnut drive = 400 rpm. More than enough.
Any step motor driver with at least 64 steps can do approx sine curve, means you are on the safe side against resonance. Chose the motor which has enough torque also at highest speed, otherwise you will loose the steps.
Backlash do not depend on the "C" class. It depends on the nut. For "diy" variants it is much cheaper to instal 2 nuts per axis (additional costs ca 30-60 GBP ) and pre-stress them for ca 10% of nominal load. Prestress ration can easily be checked with compactor and spring scale.
regards
Done some research and will start to collect parts for my AMA25LV conversion.
For X and Y will use 5mm pitch 16mm ballscrew driven direct from Stepers Nema 24 4Nm
https://tinyurl.com/yyg2v3rk - hard to find get those Nema 24 with 4Nm
For Z will be 20mm ballscrew (double nut) 5mm pitch and Nema 34 - not sure what torque yet 8-10Nm (will use counter weight, 2spindle R8 and 2.2kw wet)
https://tinyurl.com/create.php 8.5Nm
Wonder if hybrid motor with close loop is not overkill?
Here is open loop version:
https://tinyurl.com/y53kcevf - Nema 24 X-Y
https://tinyurl.com/y5rcpmx9
https://tinyurl.com/y5zt582y - Nema 34 Z
Any advice kindly appreciated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom J
The motors look fine. I have almost identical on mine. However.
I had to run my nema24's on 60vdc and my nema34 is a bit junk on 60v and is crying out for at least 80vdc.
Bear that in mind when looking at drivers and power.
Personally. I would get drivers that can run on ac power and use toroidal supplies.
That's the route I'm going next (that's if I decide to change to a closed loop system).
Daz.