Gate / Bridgeport Interract / Project

Hi All

I have not been too active around these parts in a while, other projects have been taking up lots of my time. My little lad is now 4 and taking much more of my time, and Im also 6 months into a new job. However, things are starting to calm down, and i got itchy fingers for a winter workshop toy / project.

Some of you may recall, Earlier this year I took ownership of an old Bridgeport Mill, er http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/8856-bridgeport

Since ive owned it, ive done a few bits and peaces to it, most notably with the help of an old member from round here (John S) We converted the old three phase motor, to a more modern unit with matching VFD.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lv...809_205629.jpg
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yG...809_194303.jpg
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Rr...809_205702.jpg
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Oe...812_201746.jpg
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fp...812_214155.jpg

The original plan was that I was going to convert this to CNC, and despite being advised this isn't a brilliant idea, I got quite far down the planning stages, almost to the point I was about to start placing orders

However, eager ebaying presented a different option, and last night, after work, I shot down the a50 armed with my car trailer, and bought this bad boy

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151020_195620.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151020_195624.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151020_195625.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151020_195630.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151020_195635.jpg

This is a CNC mill (bigger in shadow than my bridgeport), the unit was covered in wax and stored away new in 1996. so is completely unused. It comes fully equiped with ballscrews I literally need to install some steppers / servos, fit a spindle motor (ala like I did on the bridgeport)

what could possibly go wrong?

As its much bigger in the flesh than it seems in the picture, and my trailer was about on its arse carrying the bridgeport, I decided against dragging it home last night, so need to make some alternative arrangements and collect it at the weekend...

For all those interested, Il keep you all posted, throughout the build.. as it happens, Live!


Few things... Reckon il get away with steppers? if so, what size?

anybody got any INT30 tooling they want to sell?

Good score! Was looking at then too. But no space for it yet.

If you go stepper motor route, get nema 34 12nm hybrid servos from the likes of leadshine. They are worth it. If the machine had cranks i would have said go the servo route but steppers will be fine. Worth investing in a dro too, just to keep a tab on how the machine performs.

Keep us updataed on how it goes and who moves it for you

That looks like a geat purchase, and a real bargain if the cash laid on the side is what you paid. You really do seem to be able to sniff out some good deals. Well done. G.

its arrived boys :D

My paranoia got the better of me so decided to hire a trailer.. despite me asking for a "twin axle plant trailer" the dumbo delivered me this single axle... so technically, its plated no greater than my own trailer. just looks better.

Rather than dwell on it, I shot up the motorway, and the guy dropped it on with the backhoe of a JCB. My old van strugged to tug it back, but we got there in the end

benefit street is now fully occupied.
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151024_114907.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151024_114921.jpg

bit tight.
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151024_132123.jpg

How did you unload it? I bought a lathe a little while ago and had it loaded on the back of a flat-bed transit (about 1200kg) and found a friend with tractor with front loader. Sometimes you need friends, especially with a steep drive to negotiate...

I have an anchor point within the concrete floor of the garage, at the back but central to the opening. I used it for my lathe, the bridgeport etc

essentially the method is, chock the trailer. use the come-along (ball and tackle) and a series of ratchet straps to drag off the trailer against the anchor point.

If I had a friend, (or a for that matter, friend with tractor) that would of been a great idea :D

That looks like a close thing with your garage door height. Any pics of the come along (does that mean rollers). I am sure that you now have the best equipped workshop in your road. G.

Geoffrey, by come-along, i mean chain and tackle. Essentially, when I layed the concete floor, I sat a 30cmx30cm x 10mm steel plates down first, with a big steel bar loop welded to them. I then poured best part of 20 tons of cement on top of it, leaving the exposed ringlet pretruding from the floor. this is positioned at the back of the garage, in the middle of the garage door opening. I then use something similar to this

http://www.savebarn.co.nz/image/cach...22-500x500.jpg

to literally, drag anything into the garage/workshop.

To complicate things, there are other ringlets dotted around the edges of the workshop floor that I use to drag in different directions. Bit like a poor-mans gantry crane.

WHen I bought then house, the garage (my own, on my land) was surrounded by council owned garages, on what used to be a council garage site (ala 1970's). I was fortunate enough to rent 8 of them and at the time, I had knocked through. However, the garage site was soon sold to a developer, and now my workshop is surrounded by "studio apartments", When they were building the houses I referred to it as "benefit street", as I didnt believe the developer would be able to rent them out privately as he had suggested. However, it appears they are all indeed rented privately which is better than I had hoped. That said, As you can imagine, I dont doubt the tenants (fiat 500's, jocks, fashionable young lads) are best pleased with my workshop landed right in the middle of it. So I go out of my way to live up to their expectation. I was there first!!! :D

This weekend turned out ot be one of those weekends where my time was consumed with other things, so short of collecting the machine, I literally didnt get much time to do anything else.

I did however start the job of cleaning the wax stuff off, which is going to be a b*stard of a job,

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180250.jpg

the machine is literally covered in it, although Im pleased its there.


First things first, I need to esablish how I get some lubrication working, as most things are quite stiff. There is this jobby on the side of the machine

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180059.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180109.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180133.jpg

1.) which I assume is some form of auto-oiler? any information however obvious you may know of this, would be grately appreciated.
2.) what oil do I fill it with?
3.) The clear hose coming out of the body of the machine, goes up to the quill, and the black line you can see seems to go to feed the network of lubrication lines plumbed into the machine (both these feed lines are not connected to the oiler, and are just loose. and I dont know where they would go)
4.) It is marked 110v, so I guess Il have to use one of those yellow site equiptment block things to power it?



thats probably enough questions for now, but here are some other photos

oohhh... brand new suds pump inside body of mill
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180232.jpg

shows the y ballscrew with guard removed, and the cleaning ive done on the saddle rail, can anybody recommend any cleaning chemical I can use to get rid of the stains?
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180300.jpg

shows the x ballscrew with guard removed
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180316.jpg

z motor mount
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180330.jpg

and finally, the spindle motor mount
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151025_180356.jpg

2. Way oil.
4. Stains. Cutting compound, do you really wanna get that deep?, wd40 works great for rust stains too.

.Me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

2. Way oil.
4. Stains. Cutting compound, do you really wanna get that deep?, wd40 works great for rust stains too.

.Me

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thanks lee. Was hoping for some kind of chemical, ive tried soaking in wd40 for 24 hours, scrubbing, if it means using cutting paste, I think il leave the stains there.

ordered a couple of servo's for x & y
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...037562887.html

intend to use a standard nema 23 4nm stepper for the quill (x)

The spindle, is intended to be driven by a "vari-drive" pulley. This is essentially two discs, that are wound apart (by spindle speed winder)

This picture shows the spindle pulley (with the top cover removed) here you can see the two discs
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151027_195212.jpg

a hand-wheel mechanism essentially parts the two discs, effecting where abouts on the diameter of these discs the belt grips, which in-turn changes the drive speed of the spindle

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151027_195244.jpg

problem is, I dont have the corresponding (sprung) pulley for the motor (or a motor for that matter at this point) I need something like this

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/MillS...VariPulley.jpg

the pulley itself is NOT cheap. new, as a set of parts about (£300). As I intend to drive a motor via vfd I may just scrap this mechanism? thoughts?

below this, there is a back-gear, that I can still utilise even if I remove the variable disc arrangement and replace with flat pulleys?


FYI, if anybody is interested, I note the seller has another one for sale.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GATE-5BK-M...8AAOSw5VFWLoEr

On my KRV, I have used a VFD too. I still use the back gear on it which gives some serious torque gains.

The real question is if the motor you select will be able to give you the same amount of torque in the low frequency range as in the normal 60Hz range. If it can then go with a HTD type metric belt and pulley system. You can then keep the back gear too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingcreaky

1.) which I assume is some form of auto-oiler? any information however obvious you may know of this, would be grately appreciated.
2.) what oil do I fill it with?
3.) The clear hose coming out of the body of the machine, goes up to the quill, and the black line you can see seems to go to feed the network of lubrication lines plumbed into the machine (both these feed lines are not connected to the oiler, and are just loose. and I dont know where they would go)
4.) It is marked 110v, so I guess Il have to use one of those yellow site equiptment block things to power it?

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1) Looks like a Bijur, however they normally have a manual primer.
2) Slideway oil during normal use. A good quality 68 should be good, or 220 if you plan on doing lots of knee moving (68 isn't rated for vertical ways, but 220 will cause a bit dragging on other ways)
3) I'd say there's a T-piece with another metering valve missing, unless the metering valve is mounted elsewhere i.e. on the quill.
4) Yellow block, or just get a small 240-110V transformer if that's the lube is the only thing going to be running from 110V. You only need 4W, so you should find a suitable transformer for less than £10.

Given the age and lack of use, the metering valves are likely to be blocked. First up, I'd disconnect all the lines going to the metering valves and make sure they're clean. Then fill the lube unit with some ATF, and leave it running over night. You can then check to see if there's red oil on the ways. If not, then you can try cleaning the metering valves with some carburettor cleaner, but they'll most likely need replaced.
Once you're happy oil is getting everywhere it should, drain the ATF and put in slideway oil.

Thanks all for your replies so far.

Stuff has started to arrive .... woop woop

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151105_205157.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151105_205433.jpg


servos seem massive!

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151105_205302.jpg

Always look forward to your builds Matt......like seeing nice shiney bits that have come in the post :yahoo:

Mine arrived yesterday has well Matt and these 1.8Kw puppy's do make nema23 steppers look small.!

Set them up last night and seem nice enough. So far I'm happy with them but that could all change when they hit the road so to speak.!!

Attachment 16470

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Mine arrived yesterday has well Matt and these 1.8Kw puppy's do make nema23 steppers look small.!

Set them up last night and seem nice enough. So far I'm happy with them but that could all change when they hit the road so to speak.!!

Attachment 16470

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What have you got planned for your servo's Jazz?

.Me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

What have you got planned for your servo's Jazz?

.Me

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Fitting to this.! . . . Replacing Brushed DC servos.

Attachment 16472

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Fitting to this.! . . . Replacing Brushed DC servos.

Attachment 16472

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Nice is it yours, looks like a big boy and a nice project to work on...

.Me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Nice is it yours, looks like a big boy and a nice project to work on...

.Me

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It's mine for now but could be somebody else's when it's finished and fully Converted. I may put a Build thread up actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

It's mine for now but could be somebody else's when it's finished and fully Converted. I may put a Build thread up actually.

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Cool what's it worth converted?, approx will do don't mean to be rude in asking.

Yeah a log would be nice to see, I was looking at your build log the other day actually for the belt based machine you did for the guy in Ireland I think it was New Machine Build Belt Driven extrusion framed wee beasty!! - ...

It would be a nice thought to know you've got log(s) on here too...

.Me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Cool what's it worth converted?, approx will do don't mean to be rude in asking.

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No idea make me an offer. . Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Yeah a log would be nice to see, I was looking at your build log the other day actually for the belt based machine you did for the guy in Ireland I think it was New Machine Build Belt Driven extrusion framed wee beasty!! - ...

It would be a nice thought to know you've got log(s) on here too...

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Argh the scrap pile machine.! . . . That little bugger went like the clappers and made a nice solid little machine. Lost touch for quite a while with Ian who i made it for but recently got back intouch with me thru someone on here posting about it. It's still cutting nicely and he's made some nice stuff with it and just shows what can be done with other peoples scrap mixed in with a few nice parts.

To be honest I often feel bad that I don't post build logs but to fair I haven't got time to record and photo all the nitty gritty stuff that matters or helps.
Also because I mostly use CNC machines to build CNC machines most of it won't help new builders because it's a little like comparing apples to oranges. What I do they can't easily without a machine to help them and to do it manually would be completley different approach and often would be designed different to suit manual methods better.

Mill on the other hand is more retro-fit so will be easier to show so i'll maybe do this.!

Subscribed to Mr Crispin, Lee... that loco seems pretty hardcore :D

Weekend, themed "chicken and egg". Could of done a far better job of the Z stepper bracket, if the machine was working...

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_102024.jpg

but its done nevertheless, even if its just for now

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_124825.jpg


As mentioned previously, the spindle has two mechanical systems to control spindle speed. The "vari-drive" pulley arrangement, and also a back-gear which halves the rev output from the selected speed range from the vari-belt system. As Im unwilling to spend a fortune on the variable drive pulley I need for the motor, I intend to drive the spindle with a single ratio, then rely on the VFD and back-gear for speed change.

In order to get adequate torque at the spindle head, I need to start off with too much power, that way if Ive reduced the revs with the vfd, there is still ample power by ratio.

I was kindly given a main spindle motor for the machine, Its a brand new 8hp siemens 4 pole, it runs at 380v in star, so, il only achieve 4hp at 240v, If I run this at 100hz Il get approx 3000rpm at the spindle, and if I gear that 3:4 my top spindle speed will be around 4000rpm

only problem is,said motor was dropped (hence its free) the rear casing is shattered, It is also foot mouted, I need it face mounted. Therefore, I intend to replace the broken rear face plate with the existing front plate, then re-make the front plate, building in a face-mount

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_111041.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_111105.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_111047.jpg

so, spent fifty notes on a nice slab of ali


http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_111636.jpg

then armed with my new found qualifications after a 18months of channel updates from the likes of doubleboost and keith fenner, off I set


http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_121443.jpg

what could possibly go wrong? ...

er, the "brake" setting on the vfd could be a bit optimistic for that amount of momentum.... and you could sheer a gear in the lathe gearbox !!!

bugger!
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/b.jpg

stripped a cog...

so now need to fix the lathe. god knows how..... I figure if I get really oily and look like I know what Im doing, inspiration will hit me....So have that in bits everywhere

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/20151108_171106.jpg


Busy week at work, and in wales next weekend, so sulking with beer tonight.

anybody tooled up to make gears?

Following this, I was left with little choice but to bypass the feed gearbox, by hanging the motor directly off the main lathe input pulley, and put up with the lack of torque.

This enabled me to produce a new motor front

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_202052.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_202124.jpg

however, despite my best efforts, its clearly not aligned perfectly, as I can feel the stata grind when turning the shaft manually, either that or the actual shaft or casing was bent when it dropped? Disappointing but I learnt alot, managed to brake my lathe, and lightened my wallet to the tune for £65 on ali. Nevermind

so... I bought a "new" motor (£22 off the bay, 2.2kw)

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_202024.jpg

havent yet fitted it, but it is face mounted, and has a long shaft, so I dont think it will be too difficult.


As for the machine, with thanks for the Dean, I got the servos working.

The servos have 10,000 steps per revoloution, as im driving the ballscrews via 2:1 ratio, and they are 5mm pitch, I make that 4000 steps per mm.

My old faithful parrelel port, cant keep up with that kind of resolution so komatias kindly sold me a ethernet smooth stepper.

I mounted the control box to the side of the machine, using rubber mounts, and made a bracket to mount the monitor keyboard and mouse.

http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151130_062445.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_201855.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_201904.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_201910.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_201918.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/gate/2/20151201_201942.jpg


and albeit, not yet including home switches, limit switches, a spindle motor or coolant, the machine is moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFIM35yv8Os

listen how quite those servos are compared to the z stepper!

Sounding Good Matt but get them Limits on ASAP because if those servos throw a fit or you mistakenly type X1500 instead of X150 they won't stall like steppers and just keeping pumping in juice until something breaks or goes up in smoke.!!!

Also just be careful for while with how fast you run and accelerate/deccelerate that big heavy table because you may need a Braking resistor if you push too hard. The drive will give an Alarm if higher than the internal Regen resistor can handle or Heat sink Temp rises due to internal Resistor getting hot.
You can also monitor the Regenerative Load and Heat sink Temp on the drive panel to get an idea of how close to the edge your pushing. Set DN013 to monitor the Load percentage.
Then write to some back n forth G-code moves and watch the drives when accel or Deccel to see how close to 100% you come.

Next video better see some cutting going down. . . Lol

Hi,

I came across your posts while searching the internet for data on my own cnc mill. From the pictures on this site your mill looks identical to mine - I bought it off ebay in September 2015 from a chap in Staffordshire, he had a pair to sell. My research seems to point to it being a Topwell 4BVK from a Taiwanese company, not a Gate machine. I have a copy of the advertising brochure (attached) from Sterling Machinery who used to import and sell it as a bare machine. I have also emailed the parent company to see if they still have documents for it (still waiting...).

I used a spindle motor from an old Bridgeport Ineract and 12Nm stepper drive combo's from Leadshine to build mine up then designed my own electronic cnc controller and wrote my own software from scratch to run it, I've turned out a number of parts for friends on it. Seems quite a sturdy machine for a small knee mill, backlash is 20/23um on xy but I hope to tighten that up, steppers are strong enough to snap 3/4" end mills without slowing, removing the Z axis gib to clean it up was a swine !

I will post a few pictures of it soon.

Hi all
Its been a long while since I posted, Hope you are all well, not sure how many old friends still around, hope to make some new :D


Ive still got the big "gate" mill, Love it, use it reasonably often, In order to aid its UX ive added some manual wind handles to the X&Y which help on some operations. ( I hear you snear)

For example... I may use the handles to wind the machine to my start point, or to a center,
or, if im just doing a quick slot.... i may just do it manually using the handles..

For the interest of clarity, the machine runs two servos for the table

https://www.vevor.co.uk/ac-servo-mot...p_010200832854

same as above, just 1kw flavour.

I run a normal stepper and stepper driver on the Quill

The servo controllers are then wired via a ethernet smooth stepper to Mach3 in a pretty vanilla setup, Dean helped me with many years ago.


Anyway, in order to use the handles, up until now, ive just turned the electric to the controller and therefore servo controllers off... as when the machine is on, obviously the servos hold position and im unable to wind the handles..

Ive got two questions,

Firstly, how would i go about adding a switch, which would disable the "hold" on the servo... (So i could wind the handle on the axis)
(Id potentially like to flick the switch, wind the axis to say a start position, then flick the switch to give back control to the servo)
** this would also be useful, to be used as a lock if I was manually machining for example

The way they are wired at the moment, I believe is called half loop, in that the encoder feeds back to the controller, but not all the way back to mach3.

Im considering buying a DRO for the machine, again, for my semi manual operations, but I did wonder if there was any way of getting the servo encoders to feedback to mach3... or maybe even just ad seperate encoders?


thanks in advance for any help or thoughts on this subject.

Bit radical, but....

Why not get a cheap MPG? Plugs straight into PC/Mach3, gives you ability to "wind" table, and you can set up buttons to do things like start/stop spindle while you are doing "manual" machining. My own (smaller) CNC mill has pop-out handles for manual operation but as soon as you disable servos you have lost DRO function, and you need to rehome before any CNC operations. I use the MPG a lot for manual positioning, even if I enter a line of gcode to do a controlled cut in place of twiddling the MPG knob at a steady speed. MPG can move table faster than I can wind the table handwheel as well!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neale

Bit radical, but....

Why not get a cheap MPG? Plugs straight into PC/Mach3, gives you ability to "wind" table, and you can set up buttons to do things like start/stop spindle while you are doing "manual" machining. My own (smaller) CNC mill has pop-out handles for manual operation but as soon as you disable servos you have lost DRO function, and you need to rehome before any CNC operations. I use the MPG a lot for manual positioning, even if I enter a line of gcode to do a controlled cut in place of twiddling the MPG knob at a steady speed. MPG can move table faster than I can wind the table handwheel as well!

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Hi Neale, thanks for thre reply.
Sorry, i didnt say, The machine has a pendant with a jog wheel,

http://www.vistacnc.com/manual_downl..._P4-S_v4.0.pdf

and it IS useful, I take onboard the advantages you mention. they are the reason I bought it!. I find it too clumsy, maybe im using it wrong...
Lets say you have Carbide cutter in the collet, thats just cost you 70 notes, and your trying to manually set the home point by nudging the side of it up to a piece of steel plate, you have a rizzla in one hand your using as a feeler guage, and then trying to approach slowly enough with the pendant.. as you have no feedback in the jog wheel, lets just say ive had some accidents.
By emplying oldshool handles, its increased the functionality of the machine, even if its just for homing

Jog the tool to around 8mm from the work, then slowly jog it away until the shaft of a 10mm end mill will just slide between the tool and the work. Then you know you are at the 10mm position. This avoids chipping or breaking the tools and works for both mills and lathes.

But the correct way to look at this is that you need to buy an electronic probe, as it will transform your work accuracy. It's just the excuse you needed!

I never use the handles on my mills or lathe now. The MPGs give much more flexibility and control. I used to have handles on the Bridgeport and Bantam conversions, thinking it would be useful for manual operation but ended up removing them, as it improves the response of the servos.

I had a very quick flick through the manual and it seems to have similar controls to mine. I use a WHB04 (I think, from memory) which seems to be available from a whole bunch of different online sources. It works slightly differently depending on the system you use it with - I have used the same device with Mach3 (which I used with an Ethernet Smooth Stepper as well), UCCNC, and MyCNC. They all provide a continuous or step mode, though. In continuous, you select the axis and the speed range, and the axis moves while the wheel is turning. Good for rapid positioning. In step mode, you choose the step size and each click of the wheel moves that amount. Typically, I use 1mm steps for initial positioning, then 0.1 or 0.01 steps for fine adjustment. That works with the fag paper method pretty well! It has the advantage that because my machine has ballscrews and Hiwin rails anyway, the table moves very easily and there is very little feel on the handwheel. "one click at a time" is actually more precise once you are down to the 0.01mm setting. My MPG also has a couple of rotary switches for axis selection and step size selection so I can pretty much use it without looking at the panel while watching the work and tool. I'm surprised that you say that there is no feedback through the handwheel - I can be confident that an axis will move by a very precise amount for each click of the wheel.

But different people have different ways of working and all our machines are different. I just find it so much easier and just as accurate and sensitive to stay in the "software in control" mode but then, I had been using my home-built CNC router before this where I had absolutely no manual control of axis movement except via the keyboard or MPG, so I just had to get used to it.

I'm sure that this is the kind of thing that brings out strong feelings in people - be interested to hear other views. For me - big tick in the box for MPG!

Hey, look who's back, nice to see you here again Matt.

If you want to knock out the servos just fit a switch to the servo ON signal, but knowing you I bet you're not using it..:hysterical:

But that said I'm with the others and would use a Pendant, also the handles will affect servo tuning.