NordicCNC's build log

[jarjar]

A JMC 180W might be enough power wise, but industrial servos are much more sophisticated. Encoder resolution, motion smoothing (much needed for high accel when the controller doesn't handle S-curve motion profiles), vibration suppression, ...
To be honest I also had a different machine in mind from what you're planning when you stated your requirements :)

For calculating the required motor, I simply plugged the numbers in Yaskawa's calculator (SigmaSelect).
It's a 2005 ballscrew coupled with 1:1 pulleys (I would have liked to go direct-drive, but didn't have enough space to inline the motor). The axis can reach 30m/min because servo max speed is 6000 rpm. Ballscrew critical speed is not a concern since it's short (400mm) and could in theory handle 13'000rpms.

Yes the axis is all steel, but the spindle is only 2.2kW ISO20 30krpm. The goal is high-speed aluminium milling.

[JAZZCNC]

A JMC 180W might be enough power wise, but industrial servos are much more sophisticated. Encoder resolution, motion smoothing (much needed for high accel when the controller doesn't handle S-curve motion profiles), vibration suppression, ...
To be honest I also had a different machine in mind from what you're planning when you stated your requirements :)

For calculating the required motor, I simply plugged the numbers in Yaskawa's calculator (SigmaSelect).
It's a 2005 ballscrew coupled with 1:1 pulleys (I would have liked to go direct-drive, but didn't have enough space to inline the motor). The axis can reach 30m/min because servo max speed is 6000 rpm. Ballscrew critical speed is not a concern since it's short (400mm) and could in theory handle 13'000rpms.

Yes the axis is all steel, but the spindle is only 2.2kW ISO20 30krpm. The goal is high-speed aluminium milling.

Nordic be careful here because it's like comparing apples with oranges when comparing Yaskawa motors with Cheaper Chinese motors. The price difference is big and so is the quality. I'd also guess to get those speeds the Yaskawa will use an absolute encoder system with high count encoders requiring a high-frequency controller.

When you move up into these levels then everything else attached to them needs to move up in quality with it, else no point fitting expensive high-quality servos.
Your 8K budget will soon get eaten up with motors and ball-screws.

[jarjar]

Delta is Taiwanese and they make proper cheap servos. Also 400W Yaskawa servos can be found rather cheap (~$400 motor + drive + cables). Most similar sized servos have the same ratings. 6000 rpm is nothing special, same for absolute encoders.

I asked a quote for the latest ASD-A3 drives from Delta with a 750W servo, 24-bit incremental/absolute encoder. Price was $350.

But Jazz is right to warn you. Servos are more complex than steppers. I went Yaskawa just because their manual is more comprehensive than the Delta one.

[JAZZCNC]

Delta is Taiwanese and they make proper cheap servos. Also 400W Yaskawa servos can be found rather cheap (~$400 motor + drive + cables). Most similar sized servos have the same ratings. 6000 rpm is nothing special, same for absolute encoders.

I asked a quote for the latest ASD-A3 drives from Delta with a 750W servo, 24-bit incremental/absolute encoder. Price was $350.

But Jazz is right to warn you. Servos are more complex than steppers. I went Yaskawa just because their manual is more comprehensive than the Delta one.

I wasn't referring to Delta when I said Chinese servo's it was a general point between Cheap and Expensive Servo's. Regards the Yaskawa motors -drive-cable package then can you post a link to where your buying because that's a very good price. What model is that.?

Regards the speed I don't see many that are rated at 6k rpm in the lower price ranges, 3K rpm is a typical rating with incremental encoders. Yes, they can be run up to 5-6K rpm but they are not rated to run at that speed constant.!

[jarjar]

I wasn't referring to Delta when I said Chinese servo's it was a general point between Cheap and Expensive Servo's. Regards the Yaskawa motors -drive-cable package then can you post a link to where your buying because that's a very good price. What model is that.?

Regards the speed I don't see many that are rated at 6k rpm in the lower price ranges, 3K rpm is a typical rating with incremental encoders. Yes, they can be run up to 5-6K rpm but they are not rated to run at that speed constant.!

There are currently tons of offers on Ebay for SGM7J-04AF + SGD7S-2R8A00 at $450 new. I bought one like this a while back for a little less. I just asked for cables and they included them with no extra charges.
You can even buy the model with absolute encoder separately for less (SGM7J-04A7 $160 + SGD7S-2R8A00 $260)

I didn't say 6000rpm is the nominal rating, but it's still useful for short rapid moves.

[JAZZCNC]

There are currently tons of offers on Ebay for SGM7J-04AF + SGD7S-2R8A00 at $450 new. I bought one like this a while back for a little less. I just asked for cables and they included them with no extra charges.
You can even buy the model with absolute encoder separately for less (SGM7J-04A7 $160 + SGD7S-2R8A00 $260)

I didn't say 6000rpm is the nominal rating, but it's still useful for short rapid moves.

I'm surprised how much these have dropped in price, last time I looked, which must admit is quite some time ago, Yaskawa kits were like $900-$1100 range for 400W. I've never used them for this reason so I may look at these when a suitable job comes up.! . . . How easy or hard are they to setup/tune.? Do Yaskawa supply the Sigma tuning software for free.?

I'm surprised the absolute encoders are cheaper as well, not as many controllers about that can accept Absolute positioning so I would have expected them to be more. Thou absolute systems and Bus/Ethercat drives/controllers are coming down in price and more popular so maybe this is the reason.?

[jarjar]

I'm surprised how much these have dropped in price, last time I looked, which must admit is quite some time ago, Yaskawa kits were like $900-$1100 range for 400W. I've never used them for this reason so I may look at these when a suitable job comes up.! . . . How easy or hard are they to setup/tune.? Do Yaskawa supply the Sigma tuning software for free.?

I'm surprised the absolute encoders are cheaper as well, not as many controllers about that can accept Absolute positioning so I would have expected them to be more. Thou absolute systems and Bus/Ethercat drives/controllers are coming down in price and more popular so maybe this is the reason.?

Yes of course software is free. I'm not yet to the point of tuning but having read the manual multiple times I don't expect many issues. You start with the auto-tuning and fine-tune from there.

IMO rotary absolute encoders are not worth the hassle. Their only use in a router/mill context is to spare you the homing after power-up. And obviously the controller must be able to interpret the special Yaskawa protocol and I think no hobby controller can at this point. It could be done with some knowledge with LinuxCNC+Mesa.

[NordicCnc]

Nordic be careful here because it's like comparing apples with oranges when comparing Yaskawa motors with Cheaper Chinese motors. The price difference is big and so is the quality. I'd also guess to get those speeds the Yaskawa will use an absolute encoder system with high count encoders requiring a high-frequency controller.

When you move up into these levels then everything else attached to them needs to move up in quality with it, else no point fitting expensive high-quality servos.
Your 8K budget will soon get eaten up with motors and ball-screws.

Thanks for the heads up JAZZ. I am set on using chinese servos anyway because of the price and their good reputation.

Regarding the controller pulse output then I don't think I need to worry. The ESS SmoothStepper can output up to 4MHz according to its specs.

Would you also have time to check my questions in post #44? I would really appreciate it man! http://www.mycncuk.com/showthread.php?p=114834

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[NordicCnc]

A JMC 180W might be enough power wise, but industrial servos are much more sophisticated. Encoder resolution, motion smoothing (much needed for high accel when the controller doesn't handle S-curve motion profiles), vibration suppression, ...
To be honest I also had a different machine in mind from what you're planning when you stated your requirements :)

For calculating the required motor, I simply plugged the numbers in Yaskawa's calculator (SigmaSelect).
It's a 2005 ballscrew coupled with 1:1 pulleys (I would have liked to go direct-drive, but didn't have enough space to inline the motor). The axis can reach 30m/min because servo max speed is 6000 rpm. Ballscrew critical speed is not a concern since it's short (400mm) and could in theory handle 13'000rpms.

Yes the axis is all steel, but the spindle is only 2.2kW ISO20 30krpm. The goal is high-speed aluminium milling.

Thanks for the link to the calculation software, this will be very useful to me.

Myself I think I am going to consider a 2005 ballscrew for the Z-axis. My ball screw length is also 400mm long and who would not appreciate a 15m/min rapid feed rate! Originally I planned for a 1605 with a 2:1 reduction, since I worried about whip (ball screw critical speed) and increased inertia (180W servos). These things are no longer an issue!

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