How about a mycncuk cnc router project?

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Originally Posted by 2e0poz

This goes back to offering alternative methods like angle iron to make brackets with nuts and bolts? Decent saw and a pillar drill are the basic requirements for any build. Master the art of a centre punch and people should be able to build quite an accurate machine.

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Spot on 2eOpoz but in answer to Martin the investment of a £60 Arc welder is small compared to the alternatives of using So called easier materials like Alu profile. The extra in bolts, Angled steel and broken drill bits alone will cost nearly £60.
The investment in time learning to weld is not that great and can be achieved in just a few hours. End of the day where only talking small short welds here, not much more than tack welding really and if someone can't learn to weld to that level in half a day then I severely doubt there chances of building any machine that requires precision drilling and patience.?

I,m watching this post with great interest, and so far it is interesting. I,m building a machine, with guidance from a member on here (not sure if he wants naming). I,ve made a start to it, with a friend, but due to him being busy and me wanting a wee bit more in my machine, its down to guidance and myself. I now have the arc welder in place, (i,m not a welder), but cant wait to get going with it. I have an engineering background, so this doesnt phase me. I,ve went on the net for tutorials, but i,ve not learned anything new. My machine is being made out of 60x60x3mm steel, and i,ll put up a build, once my workshop is up and running.

Jazz, As has been stated the idea would be to keep it simple, very rigid and straight forward to build. I am aware that cutting ally would up the anti, but it also vastly increases the scope of the machine, and would be useful for a "future" Monster build.

How does vertical work? material hold, retaining cutout components etc., would it really save any space? - I suspect not. best keep it simple, which probably
means conventional, although its good to think outside the box.

IMHO the best choice for the frame would be hot-rolled section, either steel or ally (both of which can be of welded or bolted construction, although ally welding requires more skill). How does a braced channel section compare with box or RHS for strength and rigidity?, this may be easier to make stronger bolted connections - just thinking out loud.

Yes it is difficult at this level, but that is probably why most available kits etc. don't quite cut the mustard. Also the idea behind this suggested project.

This machine is intended to be an improvement on anything currently available so I don't think MDF comes into the equation. I am sure some people have achieved some success with MDF, but do not feel that it is suitable for this particular project.G

Well done Alex, I look forward to hearing how you get on with the welding. If we do get a good design sorted, I will buy a welder and try to learn to weld.G.

cheers geoffrey, the reason behind it, is that i want to build ONE machine that will stand the test of time. As i say i,ll get my build on line once i get the workshop completed.

Jazz you've missed my point, lots of people view welding as a bit of a black art, those that do weld know it is not so but you won't convince many when your talking about constructing a machine where it's such an integral part of the build. Arc is probably the hardest to learn as well especially with a cheap machine where it is difficult to set current correctly.
Not for one minute suggesting that it is not an option but if you are looking to cater to a wide audience then the downside has to be taken into account. Same with cutting ally, is the idea to produce an accurate machine that is better than what is currently available at a reasonable DIY price or a machine that is fit for business use which obviously ups the budget.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Jazz, As has been stated the idea would be to keep it simple, very rigid and straight forward to build. I am aware that cutting ally would up the anti, but it also vastly increases the scope of the machine, and would be useful for a "future" Monster build.

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Geoff your falling into the "Bridge too far" trap.!! . . . Theres cutting Ali and cutting it correctly and I'm not guessing when I say it can't be done complete and working with spindle for under 1K and keep the simple to build Ideal. If this is really a design requirement then I'm out has I don't have time to waste on what I know can't be done.

Vertical works just the same has horizontal regards work holding and part cutout.? All material needs clamping even when horizontal, esp the cut part. You wouldn't leave a cut part unfastened so it could be dragged back into the cutter so you'd clamp,stick,tab etc to hold in place which applies just same when vertical.
The space saving is considerable when the machine size rise's but even a small machine could be large space saving when hung off a spare wall thats just holding up a roof.

Look round your workshop and find a wall with enough space for slightly deeper than your typical Kitchen double top cupboard and thats your CNC 600x600 machine.
Now look again and find a space on the floor or bench for 1sq meter with space in front or at side to stand and load/operate machine and see the difference.? . . . . What was you saying about no space saving.!!

Oh and 90% the chips fall away so you can sell that great big Vac needed before and get a nice small one for the bit thats left.! Put a simple frame with doors on front and it's clean and quite with minimal impact on workshop.

Jazz, I take your point about the trap. I never intended a design that was specifically to cut ally, ally was at the end of my list of materials to cut. The machine would be primarily to cut softer materials, but if capable of cutting ally occasionaly using light cuts it would be a bonus. If that is not possible it would not be the end of the world and as I have already said I suspect ally would need a different spindle. - Don't drop out Jazz -your input is highly valued.

I usually cut MDF,ply and pcb matrerial using my newly built vacuum table and I suspect that I would struggle to keep loose pieces in position, hence my comments about the vertical machine.

I am not aware of a small vertical machine, so perhaps something like that would make it really stand out from the crowd. Gravity chip clearance sounds
interesting.

It would be nice to hear a few more people commenting on the feasability and and specification of the machine.

I was not wanting to specify the design myself, only to get some discussion going and then to come up with something.

Even the 1k ish price was not a given, just a figure that I feel would generate some interest if achievable. G.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Jazz, I take your point about the trap. I never intended a design that was specifically to cut ally, ally was at the end of my list of materials to cut. The machine would be primarily to cut softer materials, but if capable of cutting ally occasionaly using light cuts it would be a bonus. If that is not possible it would not be the end of the world and as I have already said I suspect ally would need a different spindle. - Don't drop out Jazz -your input is highly valued.

I usually cut MDF,ply and pcb matrerial using my newly built vacuum table and I suspect that I would struggle to keep loose pieces in position, hence my comments about the vertical machine.

I am not aware of a small vertical machine, so perhaps something like that would make it really stand out from the crowd. Gravity chip clearance sounds
interesting.

It would be nice to hear a few more people commenting on the feasability and and specification of the machine.

I was not wanting to specify the design myself, only to get some discussion going and then to come up with something.

Even the 1k ish price was not a given, just a figure that I feel would generate some interest if achievable. G.

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did you watch the video i linked of jazz's vertical machine?
Vertical.3gp - YouTube

I can't help thinking that what is needed is not so much a spoon fed full design, but more a decision tree against desired design parameters e.g if you want machine with more than an 1100mm X axis then you need 1610 ballscrews to avoid whipping, if you want to cut aluminium (say up to 6082) then you need to make the frame from extrusions of XxYmm , steel section etc not MDF and so on. Most of the questions I see on here, including my own, are based around trying to make the right decisions and then cost the machine build (time of build is another factor).

The next step is refining the initial build based on feedback (my own benefitted greatly from Jazz, Jonathan, Irving and others), which only comes from being able to leverage real world experiemce on how a machine should perform.

Of course once built there is the added factor of being able to program the thing correctly to avoid broken end mills etc (I'm on that learning curve myself).

If I can find some time I could start the ball rolling, but I have limited knowledge myself, so wiser/more experienced heads than myself would need to fill in the gaps.

Just a thought......


Chris

The more I think about it the more I'm with Jazz tbh in thinking there is not much point to a mycnc machine. There are already loads of machines as kits with plans and forums for this kit or that, but the great thing about this site is the fact that people are prepared to help people that want something else.

I've seen lots of videos of people cutting aluminium with dremels mounted to MDF/acrylic and even bits old pipe turned into a cnc machine and people claiming that counts as 'cutting aluminium' but there are also enough honest people that will admit their mdf machine shook it self apart because they tried to cut alu to deep etc.

So what counts in your mind as 'cutting alu', is it engraving jewllery sized pieces or taking out 20 cubic inches of material a minute to an accuracy of 0.0001 inches with a 2m by 2m by 2m cutting area?

Thanks Wilfy looks good. the AZTEC calendar is brilliant.

The idea was for a smallish starter machine that is better than what is currently on offer and would resolve the flexibity problems that seem to be common. G.

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Originally Posted by Washout

I can't help thinking that what is needed is not so much a spoon fed full design, but more a decision tree against desired design parameters e.g if you want machine with more than an 1100mm X axis then you need 1610 ballscrews to avoid whipping, if you want to cut aluminium (say up to 6082) then you need to make the frame from extrusions of XxYmm , steel section etc not MDF and so on

If I can find some time I could start the ball rolling, but I have limited knowledge myself,
Chris

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I was thinking something similar.

What would also be good is if people that have recently finished their build or are currently designing/building a machine would not only do a build log but an 'after build debrief', so that you can compare the sketchup pics & photos of the machine to an actual rough bill of materials at the end (including tools used) and videos of a few standard cuts to see the real performance.

So for example if we come up with half a dozen test files doing a mayan calender in mdf, plunging into a piece of thick alu, a block of foam, cut out and engrave a piece of acrylic etc. If with have a few videos & photos & speed/time details of different machines doing the exact same jobs it would be much easier for people to form a realistic idea of what they need.

Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.

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The aztec PDF is at the bottom of the first page:

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/genera...files-dxf.html

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Originally Posted by GEOFFREY

Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.

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No problem but it's a 5Mb file compressed and 17Mb uncompressed. 757,000 lines of code. So best PM me your email.

To save Jazz sending it to everyone, I've just put his copy on my webserver here. If that's a problem I'll remove it straight away. You'll find plenty of other versions on CNCzone. Bit out of date now though :mushroom:

I've not really got anything on-topic to add. I think if anyone hasn't got the small amount of patience required to work out how to make the machine from reading existing build logs, on this site and others, then they're not going to gain much more from a set of plans which are unlikely to meet their specific requirements.

As I've said previously, you can cut aluminium with a screwdriver or knife, so to say a particular CNC router can cut aluminium is not saying much. For me to say a machine 'can cut aluminium', I reckon it would have to be capable of reliably cutting with a 6mm single flute cutter at 1mm per pass. That's nothing special or difficult to achieve, but enough to do odd jobs without getting too bored. The next thing to do is work out what machine stiffness that requires and design to achieve that...

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

To save Jazz sending it to everyone, I've just put his copy on my webserver here. If that's a problem I'll remove it straight away. You'll find plenty of other versions on CNCzone. Bit out of date now though :mushroom:

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No problem with me.
I've actually got a version coded for 60Deg cutter if anyone wants it. Don't try using a 60Deg with this code it will come out all wrong and look shite.

With the CNCzone if just downloading G-code be aware it will most likely be for large sizes of 16" or 24" has that was the original sizes. Try to get the DXF if you want different sizes and be prepared to maybe do some touching up.

Thanks Jazz and Johnathon, I would have to use a 3.175 shank (so 3mm or 3.175) ENGRAVING bit, have various Deg points. I would also like to
have a smaller dia, say 4" or 6", but don't know if I would be able to handle or clean up that amount of code. I would certainly have to drip feed
it, and would certainly like a try. G.

That code is for 6" and use's 6mm 90deg bit. If you like I can knock you code up for 3.175 and the Deg of choice.?

Best PM to save sending this thread off course.

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

That code is for 6" and use's 6mm 90deg bit. If you like I can knock you code up for 3.175 and the Deg of choice.?

Best PM to save sending this thread off course.

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this guy is just too generous... must be all that christmas ale!

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Originally Posted by wilfy

this guy is just too generous... must be all that christmas ale!

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Hardly touched a drop Wilfy had that bloody Noro virus and it's put me right off food or drinking. Suppose thats a good thing out of a bad one has I'm fat bastard anyway. . lol

Has for knocking up code well thats no big deal and takes just a few mins.!

see when you start talking about code and toolpaths i get images of this marathon session of programming that takes longer than the machine does to cut

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Originally Posted by wilfy

see when you start talking about code and toolpaths i get images of this marathon session of programming that takes longer than the machine does to cut

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Well yes and no really. The drawing of the parts can be complex and time consuming but the process of actually getting code is easy really.

Toolpaths are the individual operations that make up the whole Code or G-code file. Changing parameters like cutter diameter for each tool-path is easy and takes seconds. The Cam software then just spits out new code to account for the new settings.

In the case of the Aztec calender It's just one large V-carving toolpath so literally less than a minute and new g-code file is produced. If needs re-sizing then it's 2-3mins.

JAZZ is completely correct there. What takes time and really makes code generation easy is setting up your CAM program properly and making sure the post processor is set up for best practices on the machine. It sounds easy but takes time and a good bit of learning. Once set up, then it is simply import the model and run through the logarithm for that program (some area easier then others, all require set up). Back to the subject of discussion though.

A cnc router that cuts ally needs to be rather rigid to do the job with any kind of finish or speed (unless you want it running 18 hrs for a simple project). Let us look at some material issues and see why some many of us who are working with machines say no to too wide a range of use in a machine (though it can be done).

Material Issues:

MDF: when cutting this crap it creates huge amounts of TOXIC swarf that must be dealt with so you don't breath the crap (Unless you like killing yourself). The dust will try to get everywhere and takes forever to settle out of the air if an extractor set up is not used (dust shoe).

Softwoods: WILL dull carbide quickly, this is due to the high sap content of many softwoods and or grain structure. There are additional reasons that folks will most likely correct me on but this is one place where HSS-E rules the house not only in cleanness of cut but also finish left on the wood. There are exceptions in the higher end router bit and you pay for it.

Plastics: I really should break this down into sub areas but I am way to lazy right now and have other work needing done. Plastics come in a huge range of cutting requirements and all need the rigidity to get the best finish (any TIR will show in finished product). Most of them require care as are toxic to inhale and some you don't want the dust on your skin. Many are abrasive (Acrylic) and can eat your end mills faster then you think (there is a good reason to use coated). All of them have their issues and requirements on machining and all have limits at what they are good for (don't tap HDPE with anything less then M6 unless you plan on tapping deep). Some cut easier then softwoods and some you might as well be cutting ally.

Hardwoods: Bring a whole host of issues from grain direction to hardness to caustic. While more forgiving then milling metal they have all their own issues with many being rather TOXIC to inhale so back to the dust shoe issue again (one of the reasons that JAZZ like vertical machines as some of these issues go bye bye).

Ally: requires rigidity. For best finish requires reasonable DOC (deeper then 1 mm, unless finish surfacing pass and even then spindle power and rigidity are huge issues). Dry milling can be done at the right F&S's but best with coolant (now comes the issue of dealing with that, which I am not touching here). Spindle power above 1.5Kw highly recommended (though can be done with 1Kw, not the best for the motor).

Exotics: This includes PCB's, carbon GRP/FRP and a host of others. I have yet to meet one that is not TOXIC and most are rather nasty TOXIC and will KILL you if you breath the crap and some can go through your skin. All are moderately to heavily caustic and require coated cutters for best finish.

Other metals: a wide range of requirements that someone else can touch on as it is way beyond what a basic DIY machine of the less then £1K grp should ever be thinking about it being able to cut reasonably (I specifically exclude conversions of older equipment to CNC as you can get old mills and lathes that will do the job nicely and convert them to CNC).

NOW, take all the above and go look up cutwell and a few other sites to get a good grounding in F&S's and you will see why there are horses for courses and why the large gantry routers that due cut metal are huge and extremely rigid (surfacing mill I helped build in real work had a 15Kw Spindle and it's sole job was to surface bedding plates for building machines on ( it had a tool changer with only 10 tools) and had splash guards to three feet above the cutting area all the way around.

So step back and seriously think what you really want down and you can see that while an all rounder can be designed and built, it will have limits and only truly work for a few folks. Space and size as stated earlier are another serious issue.

I designed my machine and JAZZ built it with material help from more then a few folks. I use that machine in my business, it is continuing to be upgraded along the way for safety and increased output ability.

Just my two cents which is limited but has some practical experience behind it.

Michael

Hi, thank you, that is a most informative post. I think however that you are missing the point. When I made the original post it was about a small general purpose machine to help some people (generally diyers) get into cnc machine building and cnc machining. Once started (and they still have to build the machine), learn how to operate it etc. some people may well progress to building bigger better more specialist machines. Everyone starts somewhere, and surely if we can ensure that they have the option to build something designed with the input from knowledgeable experts (who may themselves wasted hard earned cash on the way) that can only be good. Just from reading posts on this site many have bought inferior kits/machines. I wonder how many are out there that are unaware of this site, and have have an unfinished or unused machine simply because it does not "do what it says on the tin", and probably never will.

The idea of this project was certainly not intended to discourage people from designing and building their own purpose made made machine, indeed I believe this is the best way to go, however for those with perhaps a little less self confidence, building a good solid starter machine could be the start of something special. G.

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Originally Posted by m.marino

TOXIC

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So basically what you are saying is if you want lungs in your old age, pick another hobby?

Good job I'm not smoking a cigar and sitting under an asbestos roof, oh wait a minute... :(

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Originally Posted by JAZZCNC

Thats because it got removed with my first BAN . . .:black_eyed:

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No it never, you left the site/forum and this was at the time we were discussing if or not banning you was the right action to take, it was decided that it wasn’t.

Sorry don’t mean to open any old wounds but I’d hate for people to get the wrong idea because of untruths and rumours about me or anyone else, when an account gets deleted threads or posts by that user become "orphaned" this gives us a problem at the admin level because they cant be managed correctly, if memory serves me right i think one of the forum updates meant that "guest posts, as they become" would be lost.

I cant remember now as much water has passed us, but that was either true for your threads/posts at the time or true when we moved from one forum software to the current, like i said above though we dont allow guest posting because of many reason's and this is how they have always been managed.

:thumsup:

Regarding the topic of this thread, HiltonSteve started a thread some time ago MDF CNC Router plans / parts for home build beginners

where the discussion went down a similar path, maybe worth a read for some of you just to get an idea of what was said, i'm more than happy to facilitate you in doing a collaboration, let me know what you need - an "Open Source" forum added maybe?, some modderating access to manage and maintain the project?

Would be good to see this come to fruition :encouragement:

.Me

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Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Regarding the topic of this thread, HiltonSteve started a thread some time ago MDF CNC Router plans / parts for home build beginners

where the discussion went down a similar path, maybe worth a read for some of you just to get an idea of what was said, i'm more than happy to facilitate you in doing a collaboration, let me know what you need - an "Open Source" forum added maybe?, some modderating access to manage and maintain the project?

Would be good to see this come to fruition :encouragement:

.Me

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That one never got anywhere and neither will this one.

Don't want to be a wet squib over this but seen it over and over again where a group build is called for.
7 years ago, may be longer a Yahoo forum was setup to design the perfect lathe.

So far nothing has been determined as no one can decide on a design that suits all.

Because everyone here has a different budget, different materials will come into play. Some will only be able to afford MDF but the consensus so far is that it won't be good enough because it won't cut alloy.

Why the fixation with cutting alloy ? I thought these were supposed to be routers not bed milling machines ?

I think some people seem to look at cutting alloy as a type of benchmark for the machine. Maybe thinking that if it can cut alloy then it will do everything else they need. just my thoughts though.

Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

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Originally Posted by HankMcSpank

Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

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you do know a previous post back there somewhere said if your cutting plastic you might aswell be cutting ally.... to quote

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Some cut easier then softwoods and some you might as well be cutting ally.

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Exactly, Thankyou. iWe are talking about a small robust starter project. If a machine that is primarily intended to cut softer materials is capable of ocasionally cutting ally, most people would indeed think it would cut almost anything that they would need to cut. G.

I agree with what John S has said - this wont get anywhere due to conflicting requirements. One could split the project into designing a set of machines, each aimed at different requirements, but even then people will want something different, or wont be able to source the materials, or tools... etc

The reason I'm most interested in making machines that can cut aluminium is that any machine which is strong enough to cut wood and plastic with respectable speed and accuracy is by default also strong enough to cut aluminium, not efficiently (the milling machine will always win there), but enough to be useful. Unless you make the thing from MDF and do what we might call the classic mistakes, it's hard to make a small machine which isn't capable of cutting aluminium reasonably efficiently.

Acknowledge and understood John, it’s a shame really because something could come of it I’m sure.

Regarding the consensus thing, I see this being the aim allot and I think sometimes people (no one in particular) may forget that not everyone is looking to do the same kind of machining.

That said could it work if there was like two projects on the go, so one for people looking to work with wood and another for a machine aimed at machining alloy.

That’s got me thinking now though it or not a machine designed to work on alloy would also lend very well to working on wood, so that machine should command the authority and set the standard, from that machine people could then innovate on the design and deviate from the “plans” so to speak, like they do with the diy plans for building a machine i.e. a Rockcliff machine.

What we need is someone who is willing to invest the time and to take the lead on this, while we could all give our input as to what we think something should be, ultimately that person (Jazz) would need to have the final word and say “yes/no/it needs to be” and from that this could move forward.

I know not everyone is going to agree, but unless strong arguments are made against something “the people” would have to just agree to disagree for the sake of the project, with the option to design their own “version” if you like, if they feel that strongly about the argument.

I assisted a user this week who needed support, after I got them fixed up and posting they expressed to me that “There is something cool about discussing these topics with Europeans, especially British. There is something about the history and culture of machinery that a European perspective adds to”.

If I’m honest, I think I refuse to believe that something like this can’t be done to a success and who am I to say what that success will be but when you look at the standard of the machines coming out of the build logs, it’s clear to see.

.Me

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Originally Posted by HankMcSpank

Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

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Exactly, I’ve got just the thing to facilitate that coming up ;-)

Sorry you guys type faster than me so have said more or less what i am trying to say in my post above, i have to wait for spell checker to catch up :).

.ME

How about it Jazz -would you be prepared to give it a go? G.

I still don't think it's something that's needed & can't see why some people seem so obsessed with it. Seen things like this destroy good forums before because of the bickering it causes & you don't want to go losing any of your most experienced members. Don't think it will do a lot to grow the forum either, people will just download the plans & get on with building themselves a machine, no need to ask any questions or think about the best design because you already have it.

lee what you say is true. I would have to say that if anybody looking at the plans has real issue, then they obviously know better and should just do their own thing anyway? In general people want to make sure they are doing things right so the forum will always be here to help. Like the MM forum maybe a numbeing syem for all that are complete would work well :-)..........Lee get the official stickers out with a MYCNCUK logo at hand??????