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Ok worked al little with Fred from BST.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Something changed in their design / stock
Earlier they would ship sealed bearing and sealed blocks... In mine neither are sealed.
Fred agreed to send me new seals block vs ballscrew.
Now waiting for postman[emoji4]
Grtz Bert.
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Makes you wonder why they would even bother putting the block together with unshielded bearings?
Well he said it had something to do with a bulk order from a client and complaints about resistance from double seals and getting things mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek0974
Anyway i am glad i bought from him instead of some shady guy. Its a big advantage you guys know trust worthy sellers.
It is not how someone makes a mistake, its the way they solve stuff that sets them apart.
Grtz Bert.
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So.... i am working on z axis.
Hope to get it done soon though there is not a lot off spare time to play.
After that ... steppers belts pullies
I still have room in the design to go single or twin motors on the X axis.
I modified the motorcalcs.XLS to compensate for belt reduction 1:2 ballscrew 2010 vs stepper RPM.
Basicly 20N cutting forces @ 2300mm/min
Plenty?
5+ m/min rapids
I split the estimated total weight of the gantry for dual stepper setup calculation.
All looks acceptable in there.
So I am now half convinced twin 4nm nema23 will work ok.
But did not have no irl inertia data or torque curve for the cnc4u 4nm nema23.
uc300 has been on my mind since day 1.
Slaved x axis homing is also feature of uc300.
What questions do i need to answer to make a final choice here?
Any input is welcome .. i am not sure how to move on from here.
Grtz Bert.
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Hi all,
Picked up an empty controls cabinet today
500x700x150.
Will it do?
Grtz Bert
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More than enough space.!Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Provided you choose the Ethernet version then you won't go wrong with UC300 but to get best from it you need decent breakout board like the Ub1.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Decided and ordered.
Its gonna be 4 steppers
4x 4amp 4Nm nema23 All round : cnc4you
Does anybody have a realistic number on power needed for those?
I would like to do a dual diy toroidal transformer setup.
So 2 dual 24v transformers , dual rectifier.
dual 68volt circuit.
1 for dual x motors and
1 for the y and z motor.
Is it as simple as 2x4 Amp stepper, so 8 to 10 Amp 400 to 500VA per transformer?
Or will less power be sufficient?
1 kW sounds like a lot and ott.
I gues not many times all 4 steppers are running full throttle all the time...
Anyone?
Grtz Bert.
Also ... is there such a thing as minimum belt length?
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I would go with a 600W psu for 4 x 4Nm motorsQuote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Oh ok, that is a lot less then i expected..Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek0974
Thanx for that.
Grtz. Bert.
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Yes, you don't have to add together the peak demand to give a rating if you are using a linear PSU. For one thing, as you say, the chance that all four motors will be running at full power at the same time is tiny. The second is that the load via the drivers is more like a series of short pulses than a continuous current and the smoothing capacitors can provide this pulse load very easily, and the rest of the PSU components just see the average load. In practice, a rough rule of thumb is to calculate maximum load, and use a PSU rated at about 30% less. The final point is that because of the way the drivers work, you do not actually need a very smooth well-regulated power supply (within reason). My 68V PSU has a measured 10V or so ripple under load. This does not cause any problems at all.
These points are also why a cheap switch-mode PSU is less suitable. It does not cope with peak loads very well, so it has to be over-specified to cope with the maximum peak load, not an average load.
I use a 650 VA toroidal which replaced a 500VA transformer which failed. The bigger transformer was only a couple of pounds more, as I remember, but measuring the average power consumption of the machine, I could probably have used something smaller. That's driving 4x3Nm Nema 23 steppers, max current probably about 4A per motor.
Why dual transformers.? Don't see the point just adding expense for no gain. I've built many many PSU's and never had one faulty yet and that's running upto 5 motors.
I'd also just buy regulated linear 24Vdc supply it's cheaper. Doesn't make any difference just for powering switches or Boards etc and actually better for electronics because don't like flutating power.
You'd get away with 500Va but 625Va will give little spare current but you might get fuse tripping with inrush in which case just use D rated MCB.
Voltage then I'd aim to run steppers around 65-70Vdc. So you'll need to check your mains input but roughly 2 x 24Vac for series wired or 2 x 48 for parallel wired.
Hi JAZZCNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
About the 2 transformers.
I didnt know a single +/- 600VA would be enough for the 4x 4Amp 4nm steppers.
Didn't want 1.2 kw setup in a single circuit.
You mention startup current, i was thinking about short circuit fires :O
I have a single fuse D type 35amp @ 225 volts in the main panel for the house.
MCB for the shop power is now16amp B type..
Maybe dedicated in the future for the machine.
I have a cable 4x2.5mm2 + PE/screen from the house to the shop at about 25 meters.
That is 2 spare wires in my book.
So when i bend the rules a little i can run the machine related stuf from a single mcb 16amps, and the lights and other stuff from some other mcb and combine PE.
Maybe i need to install some kinda peak shaving setup [emoji16] to stop the domestic equipment like water cookers an washing machines and dryers from running at the same time...
I already have a Wago 24v DC 2Amp PSU.
UB1 says 3amps .. i know maybe later ill check if it comes close to 2 amps and upgrade
Need to do some dumpster diving for relais
and stuff.
I did some checking on voltage drop for thecy cable and it looks like 4amps @ 10meters 0.75mm2 is <2 volts.
So... one might think 4x0.75mm2 + screen is about right for everything.
Also the spindle should not top 4.5 amps per wire? Quick rule says 3fase 2amps per kw.. so about 4.5 amps at full load 2.2kw.
http://www.calculator.net/voltage-dr...es=4&x=89&y=22
Or should i beef up the spindle a little.
Now for the DIY PSU.
bom list
http://nl.farnell.com/multicomp/mclp...nap/dp/1903137
20.000 uF enough?
What about 2000hr@85
is that a good enough rating?
http://nl.farnell.com/hammond/1182t2...5va/dp/2759999
dual 24v 625VA
http://nl.farnell.com/lcr-components...0mm/dp/3885320
clips.
http://nl.farnell.com/pro-power/hs40...-2m/dp/1256846
shrink wrap
Any critics are welcome
Grtz Bert.
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just realise... spindle will do 8 or 9 amps not 4.5...Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
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OK
1No. https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...-x-25v-88-0033
some people use 24-24v secondary depends how high you mains voltage is. I don't know what your supply is? for the primary
3 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/jianghai...-4khrs-59-6175
3 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/lcr-ep08...-clamp-11-3004
1 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/dc-compo...a-600v-47-1012
With you having about 225V mains and over a 25 MTr run you could go with 25 - 25 secondary
625 Va will be more than fine I use 500 Va with 4 3.1Nm 23's with no problems
20000uf is over kill.
cy 4 core either .75 or 1mm for the spindle
Yes will handle it easily and your not pulling 16A because of the way drives and PSU work together. You'll be lucky if ever pull more than 6A for any period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
I've probably built in excess of 100 Psu's and most have run 4 x 4A motors
16a supply is more than enough to run machine and anything attached to ie: Vac,Air etc. Again I've built lots of machines which run from a 13a supply often installed in garages or sheds working along side other appliances like Clothes Driers, Washing machines etc and never have any issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
No the UB1 only requires 0.5A to work, they only recommend 3A to cover all bases so 2A will be more than enough if only powering a few Prox switches etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Need to do some dumpster diving for relais
and stuff.
I did some checking on voltage drop for thecy cable and it looks like 4amps @ 10meters 0.75mm2 is <2 volts.
0.75mm2 is fine for motors but for the spindle you'll want minimum of 1mm2.Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
No need to go so high but won't hurt. I usually use 3 x 4700uFQuote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Thanks JAZZCNC,
So a lot is on track..
Can make my bomlist for farnell final than.
Is there an eu reseller for ub 1?
Vat/import tax is adding up...
Grtz Bert
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Bert Did you check out the rapidonline list I sent you for the power supply. post #95
Hi Clive S,Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive S
Uh farnell vs Rapid online.... that was a quick 50% price drop...
Thanks, you just earned some beers :-)
Just checked the mains voltage
Now it is not ~225volts
It is 235.4 volts on fluke 87 V.
Oopsie +10 volts, so 24 or 25 volt secondary still?
Theory : uh was it like ....
(25+25)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 72,2 volts
(24+24)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 69.4 volts
Goal : 68volts DC
Well, rectifier steals maybe 1 volt (Vf =1.1 volt) ?
Can you please confirm? 24+24 is harder to find.
Post #95 The links are shorted and messed up somehow,
hard to handle on smart phone icw google, so on a pc now:
I had google find me the bom list you suggest.
-DC Components KBPC5006 Bridge Rectifier 50A 600V.
OK 50Amps@600volts :-) Nice
1*
-Vigortronix VTX-146-500-225 500VA Toroidal Transformer 2x115V Primary 2 x 25V
OK, uh dual primairy? 2 series 115volts=230 volts?
Do i want single 230v or dual 115v primairy, and why is that?
3*
- LCR EP0882-P 35mm Nylon Capacitor Mounting Clamp
OK
3*
- Jianghai ECS2ABZ472MT6P23550 4700uF 100V Snap-in Alum. Elect. Cap. 85° 4khrs
OK
Thanks again for this Clive S.
Grtz Bert.
Hello again!
Doesnt matter if you have dual 115 primaries or a single 230v. You can connect 2x115 in series to get 1x230 :)
Same with the secondaries.. you can look for 2x24v or 1x48 or 2x48v .. same thing for your application!
You might have an easier time finding the right stuff from rs online, just a tip
For example : https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/to...rmers/1176071/
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Ok I am not a math person but I think you might be doing this the wrong way.Quote:
Theory : uh was it like ....
(25+25)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 72,2 volts
(24+24)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 69.4 volts
Goal : 68volts DC
Well, rectifier steals maybe 1 volt (Vf =1.1 volt) ?
Can you please confirm? 24+24 is harder to find.
25-25 = 50 x 1.414 = 70.07 - rectifier 2 x 1.1 v = 68.5v
Single or double primary no difference, dual primary are easier to find. You won't have any trouble with 25-25 or 24-24 v sec.
Don't forget you are measuring V without load. You also said you have a 25Mtr run
Sorry about the links the forum shortened them.
Hi Clive S ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive S
I was just compensating for the raised mains voltage 235 vs 230...
So what about the drives.
I understand leadshine does not manufacture am882 no more ? Where do those am882's come from then?
Good / bad clones?
Any reputable place to buy them ?
So... can one use the uc300 eth with gcode to control spindle speed over 0-10v from the ub1 ?
Is uc software licence bound to the motioncontroller or to the pc hardware?
Grtz Bert.
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Bert I have had to much sauce tonight to be of any use. But there are plenty of drives to go for have you seen these:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2...72.m2749.l2649
and then you have the AM806 drives
Ok so Fred is really a good guy,Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
I received the replacement seals this week.
So now my bearings are protected.
So for anyone that recieved bf bk type bearings from Fred lately.. it dont hurt to check ...
You should have sealed bearings inside or good seals in the bearingblocks.
I had neither.
Grtz Bert.
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Bert can you post a pic with the old seals and with the new ones on the bearings?
Hi Nickhofen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickhofen
I can post the before.
I can make a few pictures of the after later today.
Seal vs ring.
Look at the gap between the seal and ring.
And the opened bearingblock.
No seal in the bearing.
Fred explained there was change in his inventorie... sealed and non sealed bearings. And a customer that did not want the bearing block seals to touch the rings because of the resistance this has.
This was a big customer and he had left over stock.
Grtz Bert
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a40c8b9474.jpg
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3663512ce4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0ade3ca620.jpg
The last picture shows the old seal icw rings from 20mm ballscrew.
And the ring in the bearingblock with a new seal
Yes, Nr1madman has the same steppers from cnc4you as i.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive S
And he actually bought those.
Do those have stall protection? I also have the dual X setup.
I know the am882 is tested and proven, so the safe route.
I have no preference yet. Did not do enough research yet. Guess i settled for the am882.
Grtz. Bert.
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:DQuote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
I don't think they have stalldetect.
And I don't think stalldetect is as safe as everyone says ;)
The 2dm860 seems to have had an upgrade. The one that is linked to have a different cover than mine and seem to have more dip switches than mine with functions that I can only change with software (and cable)
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Hi Nr1madman,Quote:
Originally Posted by Nr1madman
Did you go for ac or dc, and why?
Ac 70 volt or so is also a standard transformer.
maybe this one.
https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...-0-35v-88-3839
For Dc it says over 100 volts.
Grtz Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...121bc273c4.jpg
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I planned for ~68-70v dc but since I got 4 of those drivers I skipped rectifier and caps and just connected ac.
If I had planned for this from the beginning I could have gotten a higher voltage transformer :)
But if the drives turn out to be substandard I can still use my current transformer to make a dc supply for AM882 or EM drivers..
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Not true Stall detect works very well when operating within it's parameters. What people misunderstand is that it only works above 300Rpm which really is where you want it to work when motors are spinning fast and where torque is lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nr1madman
I realize you are correct, I just haven't gotten into those speeds yet as I'm still testing, trying and learning :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
300rpm with 10mm pitch screws is 3000mm/min. That's more positioning for me and less routing. I do hope that changes for me as the parts would spit out faster..
But that wouldn't help if you crash into a clamp or something during acceleration at say 50rpm, then I would still get the possibility of losing "square"
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Well that depends really. The drives have fault feature when tripped for any of the protections, ie: current voltage etc and usually if you hit a clamp or anything strong enought to stall the motor it will fault one of the drives protections anyway. In which case provided you included the fault signal in your E-stop circuit your still safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nr1madman
However I can tell you that if you stall the motors other than hitting something then it nearly always happens at higher than 300 rpm, usually when doing rapid moves.
It is all in the future for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I am still stuck in hardware mode...
But made some progress today..
Grtz. Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fea1318f8e.jpg
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Hi allQuote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I want to order some drag chain.
What did i forget..?
Things to put in the drag chain.
Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm
y home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
y stepper cy 4x075 7.1mm
z stepper cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
Spindle coolingpump/fan cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
or
Supply / return line spindle cooling 2x 8mm
compressed air line 8mm
coolant line 8mm
Control valve air/mist/ coolant cy 4x0.75 7.1 mm, do you guys put that in the controls cabinet?
Miscelanious.. dustshoe retract.. power for camera, spindle illumination cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
Maybe combine all controls like valves, spindle light, mist/air, coolingpump / fan etc in 1 cable.
What did i forget?
Grtz Bert.
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You have thought of alot more than me ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Good planning!
In my mind you have everything but think about that you want everything to fit comfortably in the chain so make it a little bigger than you calculate that you need :)
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Yes bigger, i read that somewhere before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nr1madman
Thing is ... above say 18x50 mm it gets expensive quickly.
I need about 2 pieces 2 meters total.. not sure about z axis .. maybe just a rubber tube.
Did you guys fill the chain multi layer?
Or should all cables be beside each other.
Maybe air/coolant lines on the outside ?
Grtz Bert.
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Ok so,
Cable chain,
Will this fit?
Attachment 24040
Looks like it is gonna work.
Things to put in the drag chain.
Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm
Home/stop combined
y/z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
X1,X2 home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
y stepper cy 4x075 7.1mm
z stepper cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
Spare 1 cy 4x075 7.1mm
Spare 2 cy 4x075 7.1mm
Supply / return line spindle cooling 2x 8mm
compressed air line 6mm
coolant line 6mm
Grtz. Bert
Awesome job!Quote:
Originally Posted by driftspin
Have you thought about what happens in the cable chain radius?
I think there has to be some "air" for the cables to move..? But I might be wrong :)
I'm thinking the cables in the outer layer needs to get longer than the ones on the inside...?
No limitswitches? From what I understand softlimits are ok for some...
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Bert.Quote:
Things to put in the drag chain.
Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm
Home/stop combined
y/z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
X1,X2 home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
Why do you need a ground wire in the drag chain, also if you want to use cy cable for the switches why not use 3 core 0.5mm. I just have 4 mm air lines in mine and find it ok. You could also use 1.0 mm to the spindle as it is 3 phase and the 2.2kw will be split between the cables.
Just a thought.